Is it possible to hit topspin FH with a 90 head

997turbo

Rookie
I recently tried a 90 sq inch head, the Wilson PS 6.1 90.

During the playtest, I developed a mental barrier that forced me to shift my FH grip more Eastern, open up the racquet face and to use a flatter swing path to contact.

This was obviously down to the fact that I was consciously aware that this racquet had a smaller head, and that the closed face, down, up and across wiper swing path had caused me to frame the ball more than a few times.

Is there any way a player can use a Western grip, down to up windshield wiper FH with a small racquet head?
 

dmcb101

Professional
Yep. Just a small surface area to whip up on the ball with. I think that's why a lot of players today gravitate towards the larger head size. It gives them a cushion for avoiding shanks.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I used one one in the past and had no problem hitting topspin with it. I use a 95 now and get plenty of topspin and because of the better control the smaller head gives me I can swing faster which I feel helps create more topspin.
 

mightyrick

Legend
I recently tried a 90 sq inch head, the Wilson PS 6.1 90.

During the playtest, I developed a mental barrier that forced me to shift my FH grip more Eastern, open up the racquet face and to use a flatter swing path to contact.

This was obviously down to the fact that I was consciously aware that this racquet had a smaller head, and that the closed face, down, up and across wiper swing path had caused me to frame the ball more than a few times.

Is there any way a player can use a Western grip, down to up windshield wiper FH with a small racquet head?

Two words of advice:

1) Forget the entirety of your original post.

2) Go buy a 100 square inch racquet and enjoy tennis.

:)
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
come on turbo! Its simple, just put in POLY strings. Everyone knows that poly creates spin so just restring and problem solved.
 

997turbo

Rookie
Thanks for all the witty replies.

I am not a very clean hitter, and that explains the aversion I have towards doing the windshield wiper with a 90 head...it offers a very very small window to brush the ball with, with a tiny margin for error.

So I guess for me to hit any reasonable amount of topspin with a small head, I will have to modify my FH? More Eastern grip, flatter swing path and open face?
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Thanks for all the witty replies.

I am not a very clean hitter, and that explains the aversion I have towards doing the windshield wiper with a 90 head...it offers a very very small window to brush the ball with, with a tiny margin for error.

So I guess for me to hit any reasonable amount of topspin with a small head, I will have to modify my FH? More Eastern grip, flatter swing path and open face?

I can hit western with a PS85 so IMHO a clean hitter should be able to do it. If you think about it, with a larger racket you arent really USING more realesate on the shot. It just in your head.
 

mightyrick

Legend
Thanks for all the witty replies.

I am not a very clean hitter, and that explains the aversion I have towards doing the windshield wiper with a 90 head...it offers a very very small window to brush the ball with, with a tiny margin for error.

So I guess for me to hit any reasonable amount of topspin with a small head, I will have to modify my FH? More Eastern grip, flatter swing path and open face?

When you say "reasonable"... that is not a constant. The PS90 (I hit with one for two years) will give you reasonable topspin -- for that racquet. It's just a different kind of tool with different traits. If you have expectations of the PS90 behaving like an APD... you are going to be disappointed.

You don't get a PS90 to crank topspin. You get a PS90 because you want a tool which allows for great all-around play. IMHO, the PS90 (as well as the Jack Kramer 85) are purpose-built for serving and volley. Hard and heavy serves are effortless because the swingweight in that racquet just plows the ball with almost no backward rebound. You've heard the term "touch volleys"? Well, the PS90 (and the 85) excel at being able to literally reach out and touch a volley... only to have it drop gently on the other side. Baselining is adequate with the PS90, but nothing to write home about (unless you are Federer -- which nobody is).

If you are using a PS90, I would advise that you use it if you are a heavy doubles player. However, if you are a singles player... you are going to get destroyed. Only advanced level players (probably older players) are going to be able draw the real value out of that racquet.
 

v-verb

Hall of Fame
Thanks for all the witty replies.

I am not a very clean hitter, and that explains the aversion I have towards doing the windshield wiper with a 90 head...it offers a very very small window to brush the ball with, with a tiny margin for error.

So I guess for me to hit any reasonable amount of topspin with a small head, I will have to modify my FH? More Eastern grip, flatter swing path and open face?

Nope you can use a 90. I love my KPS88 and I hit an eastern grip and still get a lot of spin and I use a windshield wiper stroke. Watch the ball like a hawk

I used a PS85 for a while until my coaches told me to stop. Guess what...they were wrong. I hit just fine with the PS85 and so can anyone else. BUT there is less margin for error like everyone says.

So if you want to win more points the 90 isn't your best friend. If you just want to play for fun and not sweat every point use the 90 and enjoy
 

xFullCourtTenniSx

Hall of Fame
Thanks for all the witty replies.

I am not a very clean hitter, and that explains the aversion I have towards doing the windshield wiper with a 90 head...it offers a very very small window to brush the ball with, with a tiny margin for error.

So I guess for me to hit any reasonable amount of topspin with a small head, I will have to modify my FH? More Eastern grip, flatter swing path and open face?


How about... Proper technique?

Borg hit full western with a wood racket, much smaller than 90 in^2. Although it looks like semi-western.

Courier hit with full western using a ProStaff 6.0 85, smaller than the 6.1 90. My friend hits with what looks like a full western grip, using an n90 and gets tons of spin. Another friend using semi-western, either with the ProStaff Tour 90 or the n90, hit with plenty of spin. I started off using semi western, hit with plenty of spin. I hit with eastern now, and I hit with more spin than a vast majority of the people I've ever played with using a 90. And I've tried hitting with a full western on the racket for fun and had no issues. Didn't like it, but I could hit the ball and it had plenty of spin. I let a guy try my Jack Kramer wood racket. He had a semi-western grip, and still got good spin. I've also gotten a ton of spin using the racket.

It's not the racket. It's not your grip. It's your technique. I'll admit there are certain specs that people prefer, but it's all technique. I prefer something heavy with a solid swingweight and not too bouncy of a stringbed. But I could still make a Walmart oversize work for me. I could make a Babolat racket work for me.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
How about... Proper technique?

Borg hit full western with a wood racket, much smaller than 90 in^2. Although it looks like semi-western.

Courier hit with full western using a ProStaff 6.0 85, smaller than the 6.1 90. My friend hits with what looks like a full western grip, using an n90 and gets tons of spin. Another friend using semi-western, either with the ProStaff Tour 90 or the n90, hit with plenty of spin. I started off using semi western, hit with plenty of spin. I hit with eastern now, and I hit with more spin than a vast majority of the people I've ever played with using a 90. And I've tried hitting with a full western on the racket for fun and had no issues. Didn't like it, but I could hit the ball and it had plenty of spin. I let a guy try my Jack Kramer wood racket. He had a semi-western grip, and still got good spin. I've also gotten a ton of spin using the racket.

It's not the racket. It's not your grip. It's your technique. I'll admit there are certain specs that people prefer, but it's all technique. I prefer something heavy with a solid swingweight and not too bouncy of a stringbed. But I could still make a Walmart oversize work for me. I could make a Babolat racket work for me.

Exactly one of my hitting partners used a 90 for years with full poly and it produced plenty of spin. I could get as much if not more spin out of his racket than I could the 98 that I was using at that time. Some players need a 100 to get good spin because their technique is lacking, so they think because they need a 100 to get good spin then that means everybody else does.

Take a 90 sq. inch racket and lay it inside of a 100 sq. inch racket and you will be surprised that there really isn't that much difference, the small amount of extra area is not going to make a huge difference.
 
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997turbo

Rookie
That was...inspiring.

I will have to study in detail the players you mentioned and work on my technique.

But how do you suggest I start? Brushing up behind the ball with a 100 sq inch head feels really different than brushing up with a 90 sq inch head.
 

NuBas

Legend
Exactly one of my hitting partners used a 90 for years with full poly and it produced plenty of spin. I could get as much if not more spin out of his racket than I could the 98 that I was using at that time. Some players need a 100 to get good spin because their technique is lacking, so they think because they need a 100 to get good spin then that means everybody else does.

Take a 90 sq. inch racket and lay it inside of a 100 sq. inch racket and you will be surprised that there really isn't that much difference, the small amount of extra area is not going to make a huge difference.

Yup, I was surprised first time I did that as well with my PS90. I think the fact that the ball stays on the racquet for such a short amount of time, the size of the racquet face doesn't matter a ton. Though the small differences in head size does affect the sweet spot area, I guess it shrinks so you gotta be very accurate with smaller head size or else it won't produce same results as larger head.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
Even slices were flat back then.
Exactly! you could play a 1hbh back then because with no spin you never had to hit high balls which is a HUGE weakness of the 1hbh.

And with no topspin lobs you could serve and volley all day long.
 

Shroud

Talk Tennis Guru
That was...inspiring.

I will have to study in detail the players you mentioned and work on my technique.

But how do you suggest I start? Brushing up behind the ball with a 100 sq inch head feels really different than brushing up with a 90 sq inch head.
Its in your head. Simple really. Get a 65". Wilson has a new one for $399. Go hit the wall with that for an hour. Now grab the 90. Problem solved
 

xFullCourtTenniSx

Hall of Fame
Take a 90 sq. inch racket and lay it inside of a 100 sq. inch racket and you will be surprised that there really isn't that much difference, the small amount of extra area is not going to make a huge difference.

Screw that! take a tennis ball and put it on a wood racket. Doesn't look like a lot of space? Go out and hit with it. Do you ever feel like you shank that ball? No! I'm 99% sure I get way more mishits with my 90 than a wood racket. Am I some kind of mechanical monster? Some people might think so. Others know better. (I'm not, but I'm not absolute garbage either).
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
No need to make the game more difficult than it already is. There is a reason why even the elite players use 100 sq in rackets. Most amateurs would be better off with 104 - 110 than they are with 90, if ego allows.
 
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tlm

G.O.A.T.
No need to make the game more difficult than it already is. There is a reason why even the elite players use 100 sq in rackets. Most amateurs would be better off with 104 - 110 than they are with 90, if ego allows.

Like fed used to win all his majors? Going by your theory then we would all play better with a big bubba. If there is so much of an advantage to larger rackets then why stop at a 110?

Ego has nothing to do with it, I have experimented with a lot of different sized rackets and I use what works best. I've found that a 95 is ideal for my game, but I can play with a 90 or a 100 also. My hitting partner used a 90 for years and now uses a 97 and he complains about having more mishits now than he ever did with his 90.
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
Like fed used to win all his majors? Going by your theory then we would all play better with a big bubba. If there is so much of an advantage to larger rackets then why stop at a 110?

Ego has nothing to do with it, I have experimented with a lot of different sized rackets and I use what works best. I've found that a 95 is ideal for my game, but I can play with a 90 or a 100 also. My hitting partner used a 90 for years and now uses a 97 and he complains about having more mishits now than he ever did with his 90.
Good grief. Since Laver won 2 CYGS with a 65 sq in wood racket strung with full gut and no one else has done so since, I guess by your logic we all should be using the same setup. Even Fed switched to a 97 despite TT macho warriors advising him to stay with 90, or even go down to 88 or 85. I said most amateur players would play better with a 104 - 110 than with a 90. I didn't say the bigger the head, the better no matter how big.

You and your hitting partner may use a 95, 90 or 97 and it may work for your game. But to say a player has more mishits with a 97 than a 90 is nonsense. His skills have deteriorated. It has nothing to do with the racket.

OP clearly stated that he frames the shots more with a 90 than with a larger racket AND has to change his FH stroke to accommodate. Why go thru all that? For what purpose? Unless Wilson is willing to pay him to play with a 6.1 90.

I would love nothing more than for my opponent to show up with a 90, 88, 85 or 65 racket. He would have to be significantly better or have to work much harder.
 
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D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
In any case you have inspired me to come up with a new Signature.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Good grief. Since Laver won 2 CYGS with a 65 sq in wood racket strung with full gut and no one else has done so since, I guess by your logic we all should be using the same setup. Even Fed switched to a 97 despite TT macho warriors advising him to stay with 90, or even go down to 88 or 85. I said most amateur players would play better with a 104 - 110 than with a 90. I didn't say the bigger the head, the better no matter how big.

You and your hitting partner may use a 95, 90 or 97 and it may work for your game. But to say a player has more mishits with a 97 than a 90 is nonsense. His skills have deteriorated. It has nothing to do with the racket.

OP clearly stated that he frames the shots more with a 90 than with a larger racket AND has to change his FH stroke to accommodate. Why go thru all that? For what purpose? Unless Wilson is willing to pay him to play with a 6.1 90.

I would love nothing more than for my opponent to show up with a 90, 88, 85 or 65 racket. He would have to be significantly better or have to work much harder.

Comparing the laver days to now is humorous at best. I never said that any player should use a certain size racket.

The op asked if its possible to hit big topspin with a 90 and the answer is yes. Like I said lay a 90 inside of a 100 and it barely fits inside. So the difference is the thickness of the frame.

Do you really think that the extra 1/2" of surface area makes a big difference in how much spin you can hit? The larger racket head helps with power much more than it does spin.
 

v-verb

Hall of Fame
Guys, my practice stick for warming up is a Toalson Sweet Area.

60 sq inches. Yes 60. Forces me to watch the ball or I will shank. I can hit topspin forehands and backhands. Yes it's possible. Some of the forehands are pretty nice - my hitting buddies laugh until I whip one by them

Again If I don't focus on the ball I shank the shot. Serving with it is a b!tch.

So yes you can play topspin with a 90 incher. Seriously
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
Comparing the laver days to now is humorous at best. I never said that any player should use a certain size racket.

The op asked if its possible to hit big topspin with a 90 and the answer is yes. Like I said lay a 90 inside of a 100 and it barely fits inside. So the difference is the thickness of the frame.

Do you really think that the extra 1/2" of surface area makes a big difference in how much spin you can hit? The larger racket head helps with power much more than it does spin.
The difference is 10" of surface area, not 1/2". That is a significant difference. Yes, it helps with power, spin and clean contact.

I notice a difference in mishits between even a 107 vs 100 Radical. I'm looking for equipment that helps me run downhill, not uphill. I figured if Agassi, arguably the cleanest ball striker of all time, uses a 107, then there is no shame in a rec hack like me using it.

In the past having a bigger racket head meant loss of control which is an absolute no-no for a pro. But poly changed that equation completely. Now even the pros are using 100 power sticks like Pure Drive, Pure Aero, Extreme Pro, etc. strung with poly or poly hybrids.
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
Guys, my practice stick for warming up is a Toalson Sweet Area.

60 sq inches. Yes 60. Forces me to watch the ball or I will shank. I can hit topspin forehands and backhands. Yes it's possible. Some of the forehands are pretty nice - my hitting buddies laugh until I whip one by them

Again If I don't focus on the ball I shank the shot. Serving with it is a b!tch.

So yes you can play topspin with a 90 incher. Seriously
60 si racket can be used as a training tool. No problem with that. But no one today would use it in a match just like no pro uses a 90 anymore.
 

TennisCJC

Legend
Sorry, but your question is not grounded in reality. I will guarantee you any ATP player could hit so much spin with a 90" racket that it would overwhelm you.

Borg hit tremendous topspin with 65" head wooden racket as did many other pros of that era including Harold Soloman and Eddie Dibbs. These guys in their prime would spin all the TTers off the court with a 90" modern racket.

There is very little difference between a 90" and even 100" head. I am not saying 90" is good for rec players because I don't think it is ideal for "majority" of players. But, you can easily hit spin with it. Federer's FH had one of the highest spin rates on tour with 90" head.

The ball simply isn't on the strings that long and the face is only closed 5-15% on most pro level FHs. Head size is not that big a factor for spin production.

Everyone is going to say "but, Federer shanked a lot". Federer actually rarely shanked as he won 17 majors and dominated the tour in the mid-2000s. If he shanked a "lot", he would not have done that. He shanked more than other top 20 ATP pros because 1. he played very aggressively on FH and BH, 2. he hit very high spin rates - implying closed face and upward swing path, and 3. he was playing against world class competition that was throwing very high spin rates and fast pace at him. Maybe the small head size contributed somewhat to his shank factor but in the big picture - head size was the least important factor. Also consider that small headsize is more easily controlled and lets string loser and still maintain good control.

Having said all that, I think 95-100" is the sweetspot for vast majority of tennis players.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
How about... Proper technique?

Borg hit full western with a wood racket, much smaller than 90 in^2. Although it looks like semi-western.

Courier hit with full western using a ProStaff 6.0 85, smaller than the 6.1 90. My friend hits with what looks like a full western grip, using an n90 and gets tons of spin. Another friend using semi-western, either with the ProStaff Tour 90 or the n90, hit with plenty of spin. I started off using semi western, hit with plenty of spin. I hit with eastern now, and I hit with more spin than a vast majority of the people I've ever played with using a 90. And I've tried hitting with a full western on the racket for fun and had no issues. Didn't like it, but I could hit the ball and it had plenty of spin. I let a guy try my Jack Kramer wood racket. He had a semi-western grip, and still got good spin. I've also gotten a ton of spin using the racket.

It's not the racket. It's not your grip. It's your technique. I'll admit there are certain specs that people prefer, but it's all technique. I prefer something heavy with a solid swingweight and not too bouncy of a stringbed. But I could still make a Walmart oversize work for me. I could make a Babolat racket work for me.

Borg did not use a Western or even a semi-Western grip. Borg used Eastern grip according to the modern definitions. BTW, his racquet was approximately 70 sq. in., slightly larger than a standard wood racquet of 65 sq. in.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
I recently tried a 90 sq inch head, the Wilson PS 6.1 90.

During the playtest, I developed a mental barrier that forced me to shift my FH grip more Eastern, open up the racquet face and to use a flatter swing path to contact.

This was obviously down to the fact that I was consciously aware that this racquet had a smaller head, and that the closed face, down, up and across wiper swing path had caused me to frame the ball more than a few times.

Is there any way a player can use a Western grip, down to up windshield wiper FH with a small racquet head?

FYI, Lew Hoad, Rod Laver, Tom Okker and Ilie Nastase all hit heavy topspin forehands with 65 sq. in., 14 oz., wood racquets and Continental grips. Vilas and Borg hit heavy topspin with slightly larger wood racquets and Eastern grips.
 

v-verb

Hall of Fame
60 si racket can be used as a training tool. No problem with that. But no one today would use it in a match just like no pro uses a 90 anymore.

I totally agree. See what I said in post #16

I was answering the original post - it is possible to hit topspin with a 90
 

mbm0912

Hall of Fame
Like fed used to win all his majors? Going by your theory then we would all play better with a big bubba. If there is so much of an advantage to larger rackets then why stop at a 110?

Ego has nothing to do with it, I have experimented with a lot of different sized rackets and I use what works best. I've found that a 95 is ideal for my game, but I can play with a 90 or a 100 also. My hitting partner used a 90 for years and now uses a 97 and he complains about having more mishits now than he ever did with his 90.
I think a 102 sq. in. would better suit you.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
The difference is 10" of surface area, not 1/2". That is a significant difference. Yes, it helps with power, spin and clean contact.

I notice a difference in mishits between even a 107 vs 100 Radical. I'm looking for equipment that helps me run downhill, not uphill. I figured if Agassi, arguably the cleanest ball striker of all time, uses a 107, then there is no shame in a rec hack like me using it.

In the past having a bigger racket head meant loss of control which is an absolute no-no for a pro. But poly changed that equation completely. Now even the pros are using 100 power sticks like Pure Drive, Pure Aero, Extreme Pro, etc. strung with poly or poly hybrids.

Yes the difference is 10 sq. inches which is not significant it is minimal. My point of 1/2 " was there is a 1/2 inch difference in the frame width. Which anyone can check if they have a 90 and a 100 sq. inch racket.

The 90 will barely fit inside the 100. So it is basically the frame width difference on each side. So if you think that extra 1/2" of extra width makes a big difference you are mistaken.
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
Yes the difference is 10 sq. inches which is not significant it is minimal. My point of 1/2 " was there is a 1/2 inch difference in the frame width. Which anyone can check if they have a 90 and a 100 sq. inch racket.

The 90 will barely fit inside the 100. So it is basically the frame width difference on each side. So if you think that extra 1/2" of extra width makes a big difference you are mistaken.
You are right. If we ever get to play, I'll gladly use my 107 and you can use your 90.
 
D

Deleted member 120290

Guest
I think a 102 sq. in. would better suit you.
I think most <5.0 players would be shocked at how much easier the game is with a Blade 104, Radical 107, etc. especially if strung with poly or gut/poly.

It was not that long ago when people thought 90, 95, 100 head size were too big.
 

Power Player

Bionic Poster
Thanks for all the witty replies.

I am not a very clean hitter, and that explains the aversion I have towards doing the windshield wiper with a 90 head...it offers a very very small window to brush the ball with, with a tiny margin for error.

So I guess for me to hit any reasonable amount of topspin with a small head, I will have to modify my FH? More Eastern grip, flatter swing path and open face?

The Wiper finish has nothing to do with topspin.It is a result of a stroke, not something you make happen.

It sounds like you need lessons.
 
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