Is it possible to pusher into 4.0 ?

TimeToPlaySets

TimeToPlaySets

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3.5 makes tons of errors. If you just dial back and push, you will start to win..

Have you seen 4.0 who are simply pushers who let 3.5 makes all the mistake?

When does pusher tech its limit?
 
There is a balance. Even at 3.5 level you need to have your weapons, ways of setting up points and hitting winners. There is a significant difference between a 3.10 rated player and 3.4 rate player, although they are all 3.5s.

I have played many 4.0 pushers, but most also know how to move around the court and hit winners too, at the same time, they also make many mistakes. Generalizing is not very useful.
 
Yes. Pushing works at all levels of tennis. At 4.5 they become more of counter punchers than pushers, but they are still out there.
 
I would say the quickest way to 4.0 is by pushing.
At 4.5 pushers start to thin out.
At 5.0+ they are pretty rare.
 
I have not seen any pure 4.0 pushers. Yes, the 4.0 can play the pusher game but all of the 4.0s that I've seen have the ability to force the point as well and they can play aggressively as well as passively.
 
I think the 4.0 pushers still can win a point if given an easy opportunity. Most 4.0 pushers are like that. Hit neutral balls deep taking away your pace, waiting for a mistake or a short ball then spinning an underspin out wide winner that you can't get to. They use crafty shots rather than high paced shots but still very effective against all but the fastest players.
 
plenty of pushers at 4.0 level
one of the tougher guys to beat in the league I play at ... he is 51 ... but in a ridic shape, great wheels
and can run everything down.
- He actually has a very decent cc forehand that is flat and angled, but he does NOT hit it when playing sets -
- He literally pushes off both wings - all his shots are basically 0.666 semi-underspin lobs. 0-Energy shots that bounce a little funny
because of underspin ... he also hits GREAT lobs on the run.
- He has ok (not awesome) touch (but better than mine), so I try not to get into "touch" games with him.

My usual game is an all out attack off both wings, but he retrieves everything and makes you hit more and more shots ultimately causing
you to overhit ...

My game plan against him is uber-top-spin - (a) gives me more room for error, (b) I don't want to give him too much forward pace as that's what he needs to 'block' back
(c) forces him to make contact where he isn't used to ...
 
pusher is just a counter puncher that does not have full strokes (ie. tends to have bunt or push strokes that do not follow through the contact and reduces error by not adding much energy to the shot - ie. they just redirect incoming energy)
the "pusher" stop being called a "pusher" by say 4.5, because everyone at 4.5 swings through the ball (albeit at 4.5+ the "pusher" follow through is long, but the takeback/prep is short).
some folks would call, gilles simon a pro "pusher"... but he's really just a counter puncher, and no one would confuse his strokes with that of a true pusher (eg. short backswing/followthrough choppy, bunty strokes)

in general i think folks initially refer to pusher as someone with
a) short choppy strokes
b) no pace no spin balls that require

at 4.5+, they stop having short-choppy-strokes, but relative to how hard an opponent might be hitting (or may be used to hitting), the pusher still hits "no pace"... so the sobriquet sticks

 
I'm noticing some expanding of pushers to include counter punchers.
Counter punchers require the ability to put their opponent under pressure.
The pusher lacks the ability to put their opponent under pressure with strokes, they make you nervous having to win the point.
Around here pushers seem to be at 3.5 or so.
The 4.0 player has weapons, and if you have pusher consistency you have you will beat everyone up to 3.0ish.
And yes, I've seen better players use a pusher strategy on occasion, I'm not counting that.
 
ITT: People who need to read 'The Six Playing Styles Described' by @Kaptain Karl

I've snipped his original two posts to include just the parts that I consider relevant in answering this question. The most important parts are bolded if you expand the quote below:

Kaptain Karl said:
I’ve put a lot of thought into this. Here’s my best shot at this -- garnered from over thirty years of playing, teaching and coaching tennis. Tell me what you think.

I describe the styles of play with Major Categories ... and Subcategories. Some of these groupings may surprise you, but please read through it before you fight me. Of course, I’m open to different views ... so long as you can support them.

...

My Major Categories of Playing Style are:

1 - Attack the Net
2 - Baseline
3 - Counter Punching
4 - Junk-Ball
5 - All Court
6 - Pusher

...

6 - Pusher tennis players win by relying nearly exclusively on their opponent's unforced errors. They block, bunt or poke the ball with the goal of “just getting it back.” Pushers aim for just beyond the T in their opponent’s back court. This target gives them the largest margin for error.

They give you no power, no pace, no depth or placement. They just "get it back.” The strokes of the Pusher are never full and flowing. They have little ability to employ topspin. Any “passing shots” the Pusher hits are hardly intentional. (But they never act surprised when a shot of theirs becomes unreturnable.)

Pushers have unshakable psyches. Mind games and insults about their lack of “real” tennis ability have no effect on them. (They tell anyone in the Club about the times they beat the local High School “hero” in straight sets.) Pushers are completely aware that tennis competitors are not scored on “style”. They care only about the “W / L column.” Pushers are content with the fact that they will never be at the top of the 4.0 ladder; they know most Club payers don’t advance beyond 3.5 ... and since they are in the upper third of the 3.5 ladder, they are content.

Pushers are some of the friendliest and most outgoing members of the Club. They are always willing to help fill-in to complete your doubles court (which usually elicits groans from the other two players on your court).

There are no pushers in the pro ranks. None. The Pusher tops out at the 4.0 level.

Believe-it-or-not, I distinguish two types of Pushers....

6 a. - Soft-Ballers, as Pushers, have excellent court sense. They never seem to be out of position. Your efforts at blasting winners come floating back to land just beyond your service line. This Soft-Baller may be athletic from success in another sport, such as basketball, football or baseball. They may not have pretty strokes, but they know where to position themselves to give you the least likely angles of success. When you are begrudgingly shaking hands with them after they’ve embarrassed you again, you usually notice they are hardly even sweating ... which only “adds insult to injury.”

6 b. - Retrievers, as Pushers, move around the court like water bugs, getting to your best “winners” and floating them back again. Their foot speed is remarkable and they seem never to tire. Your frustration at not being able to hit winners against the Pusher Retriever only seems to refill their tank” for more.

They even have the temerity to smile throughout this match which is ripping your guts out. You try hitting even bigger winners -- or “wiping that smile off their face” with your display of power -- and they *love* this in you. They delight in watching your mind disintegrate as your very best shots just keep on coming back.

Back in the Clubhouse, they really “twist the knife” by offering to buy the beer with that SAME SICKENINGLY PLEASANT SMILE ON THEIR ROTTEN FACE!!! The Pusher Retriever makes you seriously think about taking up some other sport from which you will gain more fulfillment. Something like ... catching javelins for the Track Club. Sheesh!!!

- KK
Click to expand...
So to answer OP's question, yes, pushers do exist at the 4.0 level. It doesn't exist beyond that level, because it is not a viable strategy.

Beyond 4.0, the closest we find to 'pushing' is counter-punching, which is a whole different animal as counter-punching possesses a large and significant attacking (or rather counterattacking) element, realised with proper stroke mechanics--both of which the term 'pushing' does not and IMO should not connote.
 
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In that long rally that addict posted, the bottom guy seemed very stiff.
Particularly on the BH, he looks like he needs to bend his legs.
Looks like a semi-trained high school player
 
I was doing some pushing tonight, against a high error opponent.
I won 6-2, and it was getting awkward since he was making so many errors.
When one starts to push and win points, it's important to not start pushing EASY shots also.
I had to remind myself to stay offensive on the easy points to keep the balance.
I plan to keep exploring this balance bw pushing and attacking.
I attack too many low % balls, and this time I was mindful of that.
Worked in tandem with my new counterpunch return of serve.
 
Topspin Shot said:
I've heard it both ways. For example, I don't have push strokes but I get a lot of balls back. And I've been called a #$!%&*@ pusher before.
Click to expand...
Then those guys are idiots. Lots of people mistake playing defence for pushing. So long as you know and can play proper offence, and have proper mechanics, you are a counter-puncher, not a pusher.
 
dimkin said:
plenty of pushers at 4.0 level
one of the tougher guys to beat in the league I play at ... he is 51 ... but in a ridic shape, great wheels
and can run everything down.
- He actually has a very decent cc forehand that is flat and angled, but he does NOT hit it when playing sets -
- He literally pushes off both wings - all his shots are basically 0.666 semi-underspin lobs. 0-Energy shots that bounce a little funny
because of underspin ... he also hits GREAT lobs on the run.
- He has ok (not awesome) touch (but better than mine), so I try not to get into "touch" games with him.

My usual game is an all out attack off both wings, but he retrieves everything and makes you hit more and more shots ultimately causing
you to overhit ...

My game plan against him is uber-top-spin - (a) gives me more room for error, (b) I don't want to give him too much forward pace as that's what he needs to 'block' back
(c) forces him to make contact where he isn't used to ...
Click to expand...

Every try S&V and various net crashing strategies? How does he react to someone coming to the net? Lob? How is your OH?

Trying to out-rally a pusher is typically a losing strategy. If you can, you are likely a level above him anyway. Getting them out of their comfort zone is a good tactic [as long as it doesn't put you even further out of yours].
 
Guy in Bashkin Park is certainly playing like a fabled 4.5 pusher. We have no idea if he is a 5.0 type just playing down though. Most very good players could win with pushing if they wanted too. In fact many instructors will play that way to give their students more hits..

That being said pushers are actually RARE - and high level pushers rarer still. I have never seen a 4.0 or 4.5 league match (men's) with what I would call a pusher. This assumes of course that choosing very high percentage shots is not pushing (and in my view its not).
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
Every try S&V and various net crashing strategies? How does he react to someone coming to the net? Lob? How is your OH?

Trying to out-rally a pusher is typically a losing strategy. If you can, you are likely a level above him anyway. Getting them out of their comfort zone is a good tactic [as long as it doesn't put you even further out of yours].
Click to expand...

My oh is good, his lobs are excellent though as pretty much lobs are his natural default shot.
Normal Stroke wise I am definitely a level better than him (and 10 yrs younger), so it's a matter of not making an error too early in a rally. Oh, his 2nd serve is a liability as well, though I often can't contain myself.
 
TimeToPlaySets said:
3.5 makes tons of errors. If you just dial back and push, you will start to win..

Have you seen 4.0 who are simply pushers who let 3.5 makes all the mistake?

When does pusher tech its limit?
Click to expand...

with just bunting back probably not but but if you can Play an offensive slice and the serve is not too terrible it probably is possible. so you either Need to be a Topspin moonballer or a slicer (think Santoro) but not just a bunt pusher.
 
nytennisaddict said:
pusher is just a counter puncher that does not have full strokes (ie. tends to have bunt or push strokes that do not follow through the contact and reduces error by not adding much energy to the shot - ie. they just redirect incoming energy)
the "pusher" stop being called a "pusher" by say 4.5, because everyone at 4.5 swings through the ball (albeit at 4.5+ the "pusher" follow through is long, but the takeback/prep is short).
some folks would call, gilles simon a pro "pusher"... but he's really just a counter puncher, and no one would confuse his strokes with that of a true pusher (eg. short backswing/followthrough choppy, bunty strokes)

in general i think folks initially refer to pusher as someone with
a) short choppy strokes
b) no pace no spin balls that require

at 4.5+, they stop having short-choppy-strokes, but relative to how hard an opponent might be hitting (or may be used to hitting), the pusher still hits "no pace"... so the sobriquet sticks

Click to expand...

Pushing happens at every level. That rally was 71 shots including Simon's serve. Here's Borg vs. Vilas at the1978 French Open final in an 86 shot rally. The 82' French Open final between Vilas vs. Wilander had a very long rally, too. I'll try to find it.

 
What is the difference between a pusher and a counterpuncher? Hard to define. But like the famous Supreme Court case ruled on the difference between porn and art - "you know it when you see it".

Pushers, by the above definition, congregate around the high 3.5 and low 4.0 levels. So yes, you can make it to 4.0 as a conventional pusher. But you will not rise to the high 4.0 level (where the sandbagging 4.5's hang out) as a pure pusher. So don't expect to have a .500 winning percentage with out adding something to your game.
 
Moveforwardalways said:
What is the difference between a pusher and a counterpuncher? Hard to define. But like the famous Supreme Court case ruled on the difference between porn and art - "you know it when you see it".

Pushers, by the above definition, congregate around the high 3.5 and low 4.0 levels. So yes, you can make it to 4.0 as a conventional pusher. But you will not rise to the high 4.0 level (where the sandbagging 4.5's hang out) as a pure pusher. So don't expect to have a .500 winning percentage with out adding something to your game.
Click to expand...

There is an important distinction between playing with lots of margin and pushing.
And even a bigger difference between counterpunching and pushing.

I agree, the typical dreaded pushing stops at lowish, 4.0. After that it's "steady, impenetrable" playing.
 
Limpinhitter said:
Pushing happens at every level. That rally was 71 shots including Simon's serve. Here's Borg vs. Vilas at the1978 French Open final in an 86 shot rally. The 82' French Open final between Vilas vs. Wilander had a very long rally, too. I'll try to find it.

Click to expand...
I don't think you can call that pushing. In this case either play knows that if they came to the net on an average approach they would get killed. They are playing a counter puncher style. Super safe until the other guy goes on offense, then they deploy their weapons. Also, both of those guys have the abiltity to go on offense effectively.
The pusher never kills you, they can't kill you. The pusher doesn't have weapons to deploy. He is fit and can get lots of balls in, and that can win a lot of matches, but against a player who can hit with a certain pace and spin consistently they crumble.
 
Lance L said:
I don't think you can call that pushing. In this case either play knows that if they came to the net on an average approach they would get killed. They are playing a counter puncher style. Super safe until the other guy goes on offense, then they deploy their weapons. Also, both of those guys have the abiltity to go on offense effectively.
The pusher never kills you, they can't kill you. The pusher doesn't have weapons to deploy. He is fit and can get lots of balls in, and that can win a lot of matches, but against a player who can hit with a certain pace and spin consistently they crumble.
Click to expand...

Borg hit an approach shot off a short ball and came into the net, something a pusher wouldn't do.
 
Lance L said:
I don't think you can call that pushing. In this case either play knows that if they came to the net on an average approach they would get killed. They are playing a counter puncher style. Super safe until the other guy goes on offense, then they deploy their weapons. Also, both of those guys have the abiltity to go on offense effectively.
The pusher never kills you, they can't kill you. The pusher doesn't have weapons to deploy. He is fit and can get lots of balls in, and that can win a lot of matches, but against a player who can hit with a certain pace and spin consistently they crumble.
Click to expand...

Pushing is relative to the level of play. Have you ever seen Harold Solomon play? Bobby Riggs? Of course Borg and Vilas could, and did, rip the ball on both sides. But, against each other, on slow clay, this is what they felt they had to do.
 
Limpinhitter said:
Why not? The entirety of that rally was basically pushing (albeit, world class pushing), until the end. Borg saw an opportunity and exploited it.
Click to expand...
By definition, a pusher cannot expoit an opportunity. They are not capable of expoiting an opportunity.
If one can expoit an opportunity, they are not a pusher.
A pusher is a type of player, not a style of play that you can move in and out of.
 
It's not the point of pushers winning because they are pushers it's the idea that like all players, if you make less unforced errors than your opponent the odds stack in your favour.
Off course, as you start to play up in the higher levels this strategy alone will not be enough and the pusher will need to develop some offensive pattens as well. Saying that even today at the higher level the advanced pusher will be someone who has superb fitness and defensive skills used to absorp pressure and keep the point alive and this can be effective when done to perfection ( e.g Novak)
 
Lance L said:
I don't think you can call that pushing. In this case either play knows that if they came to the net on an average approach they would get killed. They are playing a counter puncher style. Super safe until the other guy goes on offense, then they deploy their weapons. Also, both of those guys have the abiltity to go on offense effectively.
The pusher never kills you, they can't kill you. The pusher doesn't have weapons to deploy. He is fit and can get lots of balls in, and that can win a lot of matches, but against a player who can hit with a certain pace and spin consistently they crumble.
Click to expand...
I think the modern take on being a pusher is changing. The modern racquets and poly string have enabled the younger players to have more options.
Older guys with their heavy frames and linear strokes who push probably will stay more true to the pusher style which at the recrestional level can be quite effective especially against the younger players who aren't family with all the slice that pushers use.
 
It is possible to pusher into 4.0 and beyond if you follow these steps:

1. Use an Oversize racket
2. String at 80lbs or above
3. Rotate among 4 rackets
4. Volley with Eastern FH
5. Dribble return HUGE first serves
6. Hit can opener slice serves
and most importantly...
7. Not use a coach as they can't coach worth a damn.
 
Crocodile said:
I think the modern take on being a pusher is changing. The modern racquets and poly string have enabled the younger players to have more options.
Older guys with their heavy frames and linear strokes who push probably will stay more true to the pusher style which at the recrestional level can be quite effective especially against the younger players who aren't family with all the slice that pushers use.
Click to expand...

Babolats and other tweeners have given players, who couldn't create power on their own, the ability to hit with depth or pace they normally wouldn't have been able to.
 
Lance L said:
By definition, a pusher cannot expoit an opportunity. They are not capable of expoiting an opportunity.
If one can expoit an opportunity, they are not a pusher.
A pusher is a type of player, not a style of play that you can move in and out of.
Click to expand...

That's not true at all. There are pushers at every level.
 
That's not true at all. There are pushers at every level.
Click to expand...

Those are not pushers - those are good players that are pushing. There is a difference. You wouldn't claim that Lebron can only shoot from the outside - even if he played a game where that is all he did. Or that Rusty Wallace can only drive slowly because that's how he drives his mom's Camry to the grocery store..

Good players can do everything well on the court. So they can push - and they can do it BETTER then the pushers. They can recover better - they predict the shots better. They have better touch and can place the ball better. They can cover more ground. They are more consistent.

In all honesty the #1 myth on this board is that of the pusher domination. This idea that there are high level tennis players that win but only have the ability to push - I just don't think its true on a regular basis. I have not IRL seen ANY 4.0+ pusher in league play. I am not saying they don't exist - just saying I haven't seen one. All of these guys have a shot that relative to the lower level players would be considered a weapon..

Here is what really happens - IMHO. At 2.5/3.0/3.5 you get guys that THINK they are really playing tennis. They are taking bigger strokes - they are going for real serves etc. But these guys run into a prankster of sorts who shows them up - just by 'pushing' every shot back and the lower level player gets defeated by his own mistakes.

The problem is when you play like this at higher levels - the opponent becomes too strong to defeat with just pushing. They can push as well as the guy wanting to push - and they have some 'developing' weapons. So if the guy wants to just push he will lose. This doesn't mean Andy Roddick couldn't show up and beat a 4.0 with a pure pushing game. But like level opponents - a guy that can only push - its super rare. I am not saying it doesn't exist - just I haven't seen it.

You can easily see this around the club. Many teaching pros are 5.0 (roughly) so when they play practice points against 2.5/3.0/3.5s they often just push/dink. But when they play their better students they crank it up - they start hitting 'match level' forehands/backhands. And part of the reason why is that they cannot push successfully against better players.
 
GuyClinch said:
Those are not pushers - those are good players that are pushing. There is a difference. You wouldn't claim that Lebron can only shoot from the outside - even if he played a game where that is all he did. Or that Rusty Wallace can only drive slowly because that's how he drives his mom's Camry to the grocery store..

Good players can do everything well on the court. So they can push - and they can do it BETTER then the pushers. They can recover better - they predict the shots better. They have better touch and can place the ball better. They can cover more ground. They are more consistent.

In all honesty the #1 myth on this board is that of the pusher domination. This idea that there are high level tennis players that win but only have the ability to push - I just don't think its true on a regular basis. I have not IRL seen ANY 4.0+ pusher in league play. I am not saying they don't exist - just saying I haven't seen one. All of these guys have a shot that relative to the lower level players would be considered a weapon..

Here is what really happens - IMHO. At 2.5/3.0/3.5 you get guys that THINK they are really playing tennis. They are taking bigger strokes - they are going for real serves etc. But these guys run into a prankster of sorts who shows them up - just by 'pushing' every shot back and the lower level player gets defeated by his own mistakes.

The problem is when you play like this at higher levels - the opponent becomes too strong to defeat with just pushing. They can push as well as the guy wanting to push - and they have some 'developing' weapons. So if the guy wants to just push he will lose. This doesn't mean Andy Roddick couldn't show up and beat a 4.0 with a pure pushing game. But like level opponents - a guy that can only push - its super rare. I am not saying it doesn't exist - just I haven't seen it.

You can easily see this around the club. Many teaching pros are 5.0 (roughly) so when they play practice points against 2.5/3.0/3.5s they often just push/dink. But when they play their better students they crank it up - they start hitting 'match level' forehands/backhands. And part of the reason why is that they cannot push successfully against better players.
Click to expand...

Again, I completely disagree. There are pushers at every level.
 
GuyClinch said:
In all honesty the #1 myth on this board is that of the pusher domination. This idea that there are high level tennis players that win but only have the ability to push - I just don't think its true on a regular basis. I have not IRL seen ANY 4.0+ pusher in league play. I am not saying they don't exist - just saying I haven't seen one. All of these guys have a shot that relative to the lower level players would be considered a weapon..
Click to expand...

I don't know any pushers at the 4.0 level. The 4.0 level players that I know can push - that is they can just keep getting the ball back high and soft if they want to but every 4.0 that I know has at least one weapon. It might be the serve or the forehand or the ability to hit a reasonably reliable passing shot or to hit heavy groundstrokes in general if they aren't too pressed for time.

I'm sure that Pete Sampras could push if he wanted to but I don't think that anyone would call him a pusher.
 
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