Is it time we had an International Tennis Hall of All Time Greats?

I think any player with multiple major titles should be considered for HOF, mostly because, like I've said, it's an irrelevant accomplishment in this sport. A player with 3x majors not in the HOF probably doesn't even know it exists.

OK so basically you don't think the Hall of Fame standards change any from what they are now? Well in that case Vilas would definitely make it. However if someone says Murray is the standard, I don't even think Vilas makes it. Maybe if Hewitt or Wawrinka is the standard, I let Vilas in. That is about where I stand on Vilas.
 
I agree Courier should be in it. Vilas in the current world absolutely, but in an alternate universe the standards are greatly higher, I am not sure at all. He isn't a real 4 slam winner considering 2 of his slams are Australian Opens on grass, which he NEVER wins if is a regular slam. Just look at his Wimbledon record. I guess he might win an Australian Open if it were on slow hard courts like today, but even that is far from certain, and kind of getting into moot talk. And even his RG title was in a super depleted nothing field, that of course Borg amongst others didn't play. He basically won 1.5 or 2 slams if one is being generous. And never got to #1. And barely got games off Borg nearly every match they played, even on his beloved clay.

If say Murray is the minimum standard, Vilas should not make it in. If Wawrinka and his 3 legit slams don't make it in, or Hewitt the rock solid #1 of 2001-2002 who won 4 Wimbledon/U.S Open/YEC titles combined those 2 years do not make it in, Vilas shouldn't. I rate both over Vilas.

Feel free to say if you feel I am being too hard on Vilas, I am already guessing @Mainad and a few others will defend Vilas and say I am being too hard on him, and that is fine. But it is how I feel. In no way, on no planet, do I consider him the equal of Courier despite both technically having 4 slams.

Vilas is from my era of play in the 70's! He was good, but had a serious mental blocks against his chief rivals Borg and Connors! He was able to defeat Connors a couple times that meant something like the USO final in '77, but like Murray, Wawrinka, & other very good players, he had little luck against the elites of his era! I'd begrudgingly allow Vilas in the HOF; less than GREAT-Wing! These good "also-rans" would have a lot more championship wins if not for true GOATs! :sneaky:
 
OK so basically you don't think the Hall of Fame standards change any from what they are now? Well in that case Vilas would definitely make it. However if someone says Murray is the standard, I don't even think Vilas makes it. Maybe if Hewitt or Wawrinka is the standard, I let Vilas in. That is about where I stand on Vilas.
Sports Hall of Fames have induction classes every year. That's their only reason to exist, to recognize players after they retire and to celebrate/share the sport's history. Only 12 male players in the Open Era have won 6 or more majors. Andy Murray is a top 15-20 player all time. In either case, you might not have an inductee for 10+ years at a time.

As I've said, I personally don't care about the HOF and I don't think tennis players care either. But if we're talking about making changes, making it a super exclusive club that gets no new inductees for years at a time is a bad change in my opinion.
 
No, Americans invented the whole hall of fame stuff, so let them keep, and suffer, it!

Except for the Baseball Hall of Fame (the original one), all the other HoF's don't mean anything, including NFL, basketball and hockey, because they let everybody in.
 
I think it should be called the Goolagong Hall of Fame, but that's just because I really like the name Goolagong, and I wish I could come up with more excuses to use it in sentences. Goolagong.
 
I think it should be called the Goolagong Hall of Fame, but that's just because I really like the name Goolagong, and I wish I could come up with more excuses to use it in sentences. Goolagong.

I miss those classic matches on Tennis Cable Channel from the 70's with Goolagong when tennis was tennis! Like ESPN in '79, they must have had some growing pains and needed "filler" that I loved! I wish I could summon up some of those matches, but not willing to pay extra for it! I can still drag out some of my old VHS and Beta vids, but only go back to '82! I have a clip of Evonne showing up at Wimbledon, but was upset early by Zina Garrison in the 2nd round! Evonne hadn't played and was given a sentimental seed of #16 after winning in '80 over Evert so it was no surprise the early dismissal! :sneaky:
 
I'm surprised no one that replied (unless I missed it) said how off the mark a 6 Slam criteria is based solely on the fact that most of the greats in the Open era until the 90s skipped AO for a long period of time. You have to add the WCT finals winner which was way more important than AO. That's why comparing slam winners from Borg's and Mac's era is unfair. You should also look at Slam win percentage. I believe Borg is #1. Everyone is so quick to put the big 3 as the greatest ever. None of them would have as many Slams if they played in the 70s and 80s as they would have only played 3 a year. Borg would have at least 15 by the time he was 24 - think about that.
 
I'm surprised no one that replied (unless I missed it) said how off the mark a 6 Slam criteria is based solely on the fact that most of the greats in the Open era until the 90s skipped AO for a long period of time. You have to add the WCT finals winner which was way more important than AO. That's why comparing slam winners from Borg's and Mac's era is unfair. You should also look at Slam win percentage. I believe Borg is #1. Everyone is so quick to put the big 3 as the greatest ever. None of them would have as many Slams if they played in the 70s and 80s as they would have only played 3 a year. Borg would have at least 15 by the time he was 24 - think about that.

I agree with a lot about what you said, but I do have to add talking about Borg having the best Slam win percentage when he retired at 25 basically and never experienced age and the natural decline that goes with that, is a totally meaningless stat for comparision. Lets say him play well into his 30s like Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Lendl, Agassi, McEnroe, Connors, and even Sampras (Sampras is a rare great who retired at 31) and see what his win percentage is. Heck let him even play until even 30 and see. There is no way his win percentage does not go down. Maybe if he still has the best win percentage at the age 25 and 3 months, the point he played his last official slam, that would be something, and although I don't know it wouldn't stun me if he did. However anything beyond that is pointless.

And of course due to his decision to retire so young there is no way he has the most slams, even if all 4 slams were fully attended by everyone, and he would still have been passed by the Big 3 all in slam count by now regardless. Although I do agree slam count is not everything, the reason he is not tops there is not the era, it is his extremely early retirement which was self imposed. Of course even if he had a much longer career he probably does not have a mark as high as people like Federer and Nadal now, and that would be partly the less focus on the slams then, and everyone not even playing all 4 slams thing, but that did not even play out as far as it did.

And while I do think Borg is very underrated these days by some people it should also be noted the best aspects of his career are his sheer dominance of the overall game at this peak including some intangibles, his dominance of the polar opposites of clay and grass, and his slam count. So in his case there is only so much you can say it is only about slam count, as his slam wins are one of his biggest strengths anyway. If it is not his slam wins and dominance at his peak for several years, what else is it? It certainly is not his time at #1- a mere 109 weeks which is less than half of his chief rival Jimmy Connors; PS- I definitely do rate Borg over Connors all time, and only 2 YE#1s. And yes I know the rankings were effed up and did not truly reflect the best player much of that time, but they are still a fact. It certainly isn't longevity for him, LOL! Despite his amazing joint Wimbledon/French Open feats which still have been matched by any player in history, it isn't mastering all surfaces or venues with his failure to win a hard court slam (only 4 attempts but partly self imposed again) or a U.S Open even with it being on his beloved clay 3 years. It is certainly not tournament wins with only 64, again much lower than Connors or Lendl who I still rank as his clear inferior, despite them both trouncing Borg in many stats, in fact almost all stats except for ironically slam wins and best year performances. The "it isn't all about slam count" is a far more convincing argument for say Navratilova or Evert than it is for Borg sadly. That is what happens when you retire at 25.
 
I agree with a lot about what you said, but I do have to add talking about Borg having the best Slam win percentage when he retired at 25 basically and never experienced age and the natural decline that goes with that, is a totally meaningless stat for comparision. Lets say him play well into his 30s like Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Lendl, Agassi, McEnroe, Connors, and even Sampras (Sampras is a rare great who retired at 31) and see what his win percentage is. Heck let him even play until even 30 and see. There is no way his win percentage does not go down. Maybe if he still has the best win percentage at the age 25 and 3 months, the point he played his last official slam, that would be something, and although I don't know it wouldn't stun me if he did. However anything beyond that is pointless.

And of course due to his decision to retire so young there is no way he has the most slams, even if all 4 slams were fully attended by everyone, and he would still have been passed by the Big 3 all in slam count by now regardless. Although I do agree slam count is not everything, the reason he is not tops there is not the era, it is his extremely early retirement which was self imposed. Of course even if he had a much longer career he probably does not have a mark as high as people like Federer and Nadal now, and that would be partly the less focus on the slams then, and everyone not even playing all 4 slams thing, but that did not even play out as far as it did.

And while I do think Borg is very underrated these days by some people it should also be noted the best aspects of his career are his sheer dominance of the overall game at this peak including some intangibles, his dominance of the polar opposites of clay and grass, and his slam count. So in his case there is only so much you can say it is only about slam count, as his slam wins are one of his biggest strengths anyway. If it is not his slam wins and dominance at his peak for several years, what else is it? It certainly is not his time at #1- a mere 109 weeks which is less than half of his chief rival Jimmy Connors; PS- I definitely do rate Borg over Connors all time, and only 2 YE#1s. And yes I know the rankings were effed up and did not truly reflect the best player much of that time, but they are still a fact. It certainly isn't longevity for him, LOL! Despite his amazing joint Wimbledon/French Open feats which still have been matched by any player in history, it isn't mastering all surfaces or venues with his failure to win a hard court slam (only 4 attempts but partly self imposed again) or a U.S Open even with it being on his beloved clay 3 years. It is certainly not tournament wins with only 64, again much lower than Connors or Lendl who I still rank as his clear inferior, despite them both trouncing Borg in many stats, in fact almost all stats except for ironically slam wins and best year performances. The "it isn't all about slam count" is a far more convincing argument for say Navratilova or Evert than it is for Borg sadly. That is what happens when you retire at 25.

Rankings were screwy back then. You make a lot of good points. My point is that Slam count for players in that era is unfair as they only played 3. I agree with the slam percentage with Borg but it is what it is. Most male players in the past were done competing for slams by 31 and 27 was their prime. As for Borg - the most under appreciated feat in tennis may be his RG titles on slow red clay while staying back all tournament and then going to Wimledon on fast grass and serve and volleying to 5 straight titles.
 
Rankings were screwy back then. You make a lot of good points. My point is that Slam count for players in that era is unfair as they only played 3. I agree with the slam percentage with Borg but it is what it is. Most male players in the past were done competing for slams by 31 and 27 was their prime. As for Borg - the most under appreciated feat in tennis may be his RG titles on slow red clay while staying back all tournament and then going to Wimledon on fast grass and serve and volleying to 5 straight titles.

The Rankings were a freakin' mess in the early days of Open tennis due to so many ruling bodies/authorities including the Int'l Tennis Federation, The WCT, USTA, and an independent tour headlined by players like Connors and Nastase! I remember a guy was trying to calculate points for Borg in the 70's, but he was missing 10 pts. from somewhere! It was a total guess on my part when I told him to look at "The Nations Cup;" more an exhibition/warm-up for the FO with the 8 top countries having a RR like Hopman Cup with 2 singles and a doubles match! Borg played and beat Vilas in 3 sets and he was given 10 points even though all players didn't have a chance with the limited draw! :sneaky:
 
Seeing as how this subject has been the topic of so much discussion lately and obviously excites intense interest for most posters on here, is it time we kicked the outdated International Tennis Hall Of Fame into touch (with all the endless arguments about who should and who shouldn't be in there) and simply apply the 6 Slams guillotine rule which most people on here seem to favour?

In singles, that would currently include 27 men and 21 women, a total of 48 players.

Men (in order of Slam count and listed alphabetically if more than one player with same number):

1. Roger Federer (20)
2. Rafael Nadal (19)
3. Novak Djokovic (17)
4. Pete Sampras (14)
5. Roy Emerson (12)
6. Bjorn Borg (11)
7. Rod Laver (11)
8. Bill Tilden (10)
9. Andre Agassi (8)
10. Jimmy Connors (8)
11. Ivan Lendl (8)
12. Fred Perry (8)
13. Ken Rosewall (8)
14. Henri Cochet (7)
15. Rene Lacoste (7)
16. William Larned (7)
17. John McEnroe (7)
18. John Newcombe (7)
19. William Renshaw (7)
20. Richard Sears (7)
21. Mats Wilander (7)
22. Boris Becker (6)
23. Don Budge (6)
24. Jack Crawford (6)
25. Lawrence Doherty (6)
26. Stefan Edberg (6)
27. Anthony Wilding (6)

Women ((in order of Slam count and listed alphabetically if more than one player with same number):

1. Margaret Smith Court (24)
2. Serena Williams (23)
3. Steffi Graf (22)
4. Helen Wills Moody (19)
5. Chris Evert (18)
6. Martina Navratilova (18)
7. Billie Jean King (12)
8. Maureen Connolly (9)
9. Monica Seles (9)
10. Suzanne Lenglen (8)
11. Molla Bjurstedt Mallory (8)
12. Maria Bueno (7)
13. Evonne Goolagong Cawley (7)
14. Dorothea Lambert Chambers (7)
15. Justine Henin (7)
16. Venus Williams (7)
17. Nancye Wynne Bolton (6)
18. Louise Brough (6)
19. Margaret Osborne DuPont (6)
20. Doris Hart (6)
21. Blanche Bingley Hillyard (6)

Not sure of what the doubles criteria would be. Open to the wise counsel of TTW on that one.

Thoughts?

Modern pro sports create their champions. In tennis it comes down to draw and scheduling. One tournament tried to make Monfils play nadal 2 hours after a three setter. Fed plays guys in the daytime who played late (when he has to play in the day light). Djok plays ppl who's biggest weapon is hitting xcourt and fit.

Why i like wrestling, they are fake but dont fake it

Numbers will always go up in pro sports, we need new records or viewers arent watching the best players (technically). Never forget its a business, one you can gamble on :p
 
Modern pro sports create their champions. In tennis it comes down to draw and scheduling. One tournament tried to make Monfils play nadal 2 hours after a three setter. Fed plays guys in the daytime who played late (when he has to play in the day light). Djok plays ppl who's biggest weapon is hitting xcourt and fit.

Why i like wrestling, they are fake but dont fake it

Numbers will always go up in pro sports, we need new records or viewers arent watching the best players (technically). Never forget its a business, one you can gamble on :p

ITA. There is all kinds of corruption in the sport, anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional, and extends to I am sure lots of positive doping tests covered up (Maria was caught mostly due to the anti Russian thing going on in sport now) while making an example of Odesnik who nobody cares about but is enough to convince many of the masses and maybe WADA tennis takes drug testing seriously.

One point I sometimes disagree is people slowed the courts to favor the Big 3. Wouldn't slower courts favor younger players typically, and shouldn't it be harder for a much older player to stay out there all day to win points and matches? Then again I guess one has to remember the context of the kind of player atleast 2 of those 3 (Nadal and Djoker) are.
 
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