Is it worth staying with Prince?

[kimguroo]

These activities cost millions of dollars (mainly promotion - you have to pay millions to the right pro players) and you need to support network of international dealers and it costs huge... If someone really packed buys the brand and pays like 5 million of dollars to Kyrgios, Shapovalov, Zverev and maybe few more talent then they can make some good sale but... who would risk such a big investment? Maybe some Chinese conglomerate will buy the brand..

If current ownership does not want to invest, what can they do?
They can’t just sit and doing nothing for longer period time.
If they do, their brand value will be going down more and more.
horrible marketing with phantom. It took one full year to arrive in US and hype is almost gone.
I’m still see old o-port racket players and rarely see textreme 95 and 100p but unfortunately, less and less people buy prince rackets nowadays.
If prince US has full models like Prince Japan, there is small chance to get better market share but there is no chance with current prince rackets in US. Also without endorsements, Prince will not survive in my opinion.

 

[Bartelby]

I have a feeling Prince's premium offering is becoming a brand sold mainly online, possibly a TW exclusive even.

Even the Dunlop/Srixon line is limited to a stock of 2,000 so that also may be a TW exclusive at the moment.

 

[LuchoVena]

I thought I

I have a feeling Prince's premium offering is becoming a brand sold mainly online, possibly a TW exclusive even.

Even the Dunlop/Srixon line is limited to a stock of 2,000 so that also may be a TW exclusive at the moment.

read somewhere it was 3000 for the US market....not sure if single model or all together
found it:
http://www.tennis.com/gear/2017/09/racquet-preview-dunlopsrixon-cx-and-cv-series/69238/

 

[Bartelby]

Yes, 3000 it is. Doesn't sound much! But better than 2K.

 

[Lavs]

Pretty sad to hear that Prince might degrade. Technology/Quality wise this company had been producing great stuff.

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[ricki]

It took one full year to arrive in US and hype is almost gone.

What is even worse is that it is basically same racquet as EXO tour 100 with different paintjob and what it took them this time?

 

[alter mann]

I stored at least 7x5=35 Prince racquets.
Tour 95 txt
Tour 100 16x18
Tour 100T ESP
Classic Response 97
Ignite 95
POG
Graphite Exo 100
....and some classics.

So i can play Prince for sure untill my retirement in 35 years.

 

[Seth]

What is even worse is that it is basically same racquet as EXO tour 100 with different paintjob and what it took them this time?

Have you hit with it? It's certainly not "basically same racquet" as the Tour 100.

 

[jason n]

I have a feeling Prince's premium offering is becoming a brand sold mainly online, possibly a TW exclusive even.

Even the Dunlop/Srixon line is limited to a stock of 2,000 so that also may be a TW exclusive at the moment.

Visited Las Vegas Golf and Tennis store yesterday and they had one Dunlop/Srixon tour model racquet and three non tour models available.

 

[Dartagnan64]

What is even worse is that it is basically same racquet as EXO tour 100 with different paintjob and what it took them this time?

If that's the case, where can I get me some of these EXO3 Tours? Cuz I'm having a great time hitting the Phantom.

Not sure where this harshness comes from. It's not like hitting with a 2013 PD is much different from hitting a 2018 PD.
A ported 16x18 100 sq in frame is going to feel awfully similar to another one. Just like all PD's kinda feel similar. New rackets are minor tweaks over old rackets. There hasn't been a major revolution since graphite.

The phantom gives you a bit more solid textreme in the throat to give you some better feel over the EXO3 Tour. It keeps things flexy, soft and spinny for those that like flexy soft and spinny. There are only so many things you can do with a hoop and a handle.
For arm struggling players the ports and flex are game changers.

 

[Ronaldo]

Pity Prince did not re-tool the Vortex

 

[Hayward Butler]

For all of those worrying about buying a new Prince racquet all I can say is "just do it". I just visited my Prince sponsor on Friday and got to see first hand the new models that are on the way. Included were the new Beast models and a Tour P junior. The Beast 98 is in black with the red trim inside. In fact, all of the Beast models coming to Europe were red trimmed. They look really cool. The paint job is really nice and the quality looks good as well. The weight and balance of the 98 is the same as the one on the Japanese site, just the paint job is different, red instead of yellow. All beast racquets we received have the same paint job with different specs. We will be getting the Phantom and the Phantom Pro in November. The Beast are for 2018 but we have received some preview models. There are other new versions coming as well in the spring of 2018.

 

[jmacdaununder2]

Great news!! Thanks as always for keeping us posted 'lifeline' style!!

 

[ricki]

got to see first hand the new models that are on the way. Included were the new Beast models and a Tour P junior. The Beast 98 is in black with the red trim inside.

So new ones are not ported? It all means they use different supplier with much cheaper production (drilled frames are much cheaper to produce)

 

[Dartagnan64]

So new ones are not ported? It all means they use different supplier with much cheaper production (drilled frames are much cheaper to produce)

Prince has been making non-ported frames for awhile that are quite good. Textreme Tour 95, Textreme Warrior 100 are both excellent frames.

 

[LuchoVena]

is the Beast ...what kind of racquet for what kind of player?
In other words, will the Textreme Tour 95 or Tour line be replaced soon?

 

[Hayward Butler]

So new ones are not ported? It all means they use different supplier with much cheaper production (drilled frames are much cheaper to produce)[/There are both ported and non-ported of each model.

 

[Hayward Butler]

So new ones are not ported? It all means they use different supplier with much cheaper production (drilled frames are much cheaper to produce)

There are both ported and non-ported of each model.

 

[ricki]

There are both ported and non-ported of each model.

good news then. I wonder why they just do not use "like drill hole plastic inserts" which they had for example for EXO3 Rebel

 

[Kurt0707]

Almost 2 years since this thread started Prince are still bringing out new unique rackets.. new TT100P is out and also new Phantoms 18x20 are coming up. As long as Prince stay unique (comfortable players rackets) they will not be out of business, the industry is moving towards this direction anyways (e.g Wilson Clash) and Prince are already there... so enjoy the rackets if they suit you, I do, and will worry about this in the future if it ever happens, which is very unlikely.. they always have the option to license their technology even if under a different brand name, but the brand is still strong nowadays especially with older players who grew up with Prince. So they are surely to stay for some years at least.. enjoy them if they suit your game now, your game also changes in time..

 

[Dartagnan64]

Textreme probably saved them TBH. Being able to make such great feeling rackets in a world of tinny harsh frames is a revelation. You can see Wilson starting to move more that way with the Ultra Tour and Clash and de-commissioning the Burn line. Head also has been softening their graphene lines and even the latest iterations of the Pure Drive and Pure Aero are a bit softer.

hopefully the light stiff arms race is coming to an end and we'll see a move to more comfortable frames to handle the poly generation. Light stiff frames with high tension poly is just a ludicrous proposition for 90% of the rec population. Glad Prince has maintained that principle and swam against the current.

They fixed my arm issues so i owe them a little bit of loyalty.

 

[one-hand]

I've been a loyal Prince user since the Precision Equipe many moons ago. Heck, before that it was the CTS Approach! More recently I've been hitting with the ESP Tour 98 and enjoying it. My question is.... will Prince even be around in a year or two? Grommets, new frames, customer support? Should I be thinking about switching to a more stable mfg like Head, Wilson, Yonex, etc for the long term? Seems like Prince is a dying brand which is sad. Someone talk me off of the ledge!!!

If the food on your table doesn't directly come from winning matches, then you can safely back off the ledge.

 

[jmacdaununder2]

Apparent TW subsidiary Tennis Only Melbourne still has no new Prince stock or demos; talk about shooting yourself in the foot. (When the only game in town isn't actually even a game anymore...)

 

[tata]

They are still waiting for the new tours to arrive

 

[flanker2000fr]

Textreme probably saved them TBH. Being able to make such great feeling rackets in a world of tinny harsh frames is a revelation. You can see Wilson starting to move more that way with the Ultra Tour and Clash and de-commissioning the Burn line. Head also has been softening their graphene lines and even the latest iterations of the Pure Drive and Pure Aero are a bit softer.

hopefully the light stiff arms race is coming to an end and we'll see a move to more comfortable frames to handle the poly generation. Light stiff frames with high tension poly is just a ludicrous proposition for 90% of the rec population. Glad Prince has maintained that principle and swam against the current.

They fixed my arm issues so i owe them a little bit of loyalty.

Wholeheartedly agree on Prince making great frames, that are easy on the arm.

The one thing they have to fix, though, is their distribution, which is atrocious and well below that of Wilson, Babolat, Head, Yonex etc. At least in Asia, their models are difficult to find, and distributed perhaps in 20% of tennis / sports store. Then, you want to order from TW, but they won't ship outside of US / Canada / Australia because of the distribution agreements they have with Prince. So you eventually have to order from TW Europe (who will charge you EUR 20 for their matching service vs. USD 10 from TW US), and don't always have parts you want, e.g. they don't have the grommets for the Phantom 93P. In other words, the international distribution is a complete shambles, and one has to wonder what's the point of busting a gut doing great products if your potential customers can't get them.

 

[tata]

Wholeheartedly agree on Prince making great frames, that are easy on the arm.

The one thing they have to fix, though, is their distribution, which is atrocious and well below that of Wilson, Babolat, Head, Yonex etc. At least in Asia, their models are difficult to find, and distributed perhaps in 20% of tennis / sports store. Then, you want to order from TW, but they won't ship outside of US / Canada / Australia because of the distribution agreements they have with Prince. So you eventually have to order from TW Europe (who will charge you EUR 20 for their matching service vs. USD 10 from TW US), and don't always have parts you want, e.g. they don't have the grommets for the Phantom 93P. In other words, the international distribution is a complete shambles, and one has to wonder what's the point of busting a gut doing great products if your potential customers can't get them.

Pretty sure in one of the other phantom threads Brittany confirmed they are now abke to ship outside US. But don't quote me on it. Contact TW and confirm which countries they can or cannot ship to but definitely read it somewhere.

 

[flanker2000fr]

Pretty sure in one of the other phantom threads Brittany confirmed they are now abke to ship outside US. But don't quote me on it. Contact TW and confirm which countries they can or cannot ship to but definitely read it somewhere.

They can ship to Canada and Australia, but not to Asia due to their distribution agreement. That's the information I got a few weeks ago when contacting TW's Customer Service.

 

[hurworld]

They can ship to Canada and Australia, but not to Asia due to their distribution agreement. That's the information I got a few weeks ago when contacting TW's Customer Service.

I got my 93P from Singapore. Well, a visiting friend from Singapore bought it for me (I'm based in the UK). Hope that helps.

 

[flanker2000fr]

I got my 93P from Singapore. Well, a visiting friend from Singapore bought it for me (I'm based in the UK). Hope that helps.

Thanks for the information. I actually managed to find one store in HK that distributes their range. So it is possible to find their racquets here and there, but they make it unnecessarily complicated.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Wholeheartedly agree on Prince making great frames, that are easy on the arm.

The one thing they have to fix, though, is their distribution, which is atrocious and well below that of Wilson, Babolat, Head, Yonex etc. At least in Asia, their models are difficult to find, and distributed perhaps in 20% of tennis / sports store. Then, you want to order from TW, but they won't ship outside of US / Canada / Australia because of the distribution agreements they have with Prince. So you eventually have to order from TW Europe (who will charge you EUR 20 for their matching service vs. USD 10 from TW US), and don't always have parts you want, e.g. they don't have the grommets for the Phantom 93P. In other words, the international distribution is a complete shambles, and one has to wonder what's the point of busting a gut doing great products if your potential customers can't get them.

Yes but if they spend all their cash in R&D rather than marketing and sponsorships and expensive distribution models, I'm happy. It's a model that works for Angell. "Create a quality product at a good price and make it a little difficult to obtain therefore a bit more exclusive" has definitely worked for a lot of companies.

When we buy a Wilson, Babolat or Head, we are paying for a ton of marketing and sponsorship and less for materials and R&D.

I live in Canada and have managed to get my hands on Prince rackets and we are about as challenged as some parts of Asia. It wasn't too terribly hard. It does make the demo process a bit harder but can't say I've been disappointed with any of my Prince rackets.

 

[tata]

Quality over quantity

 

[jmacdaununder2]

Yes but if they spend all their cash in R&D rather than marketing and sponsorships and expensive distribution models, I'm happy. It's a model that works for Angell. "Create a quality product at a good price and make it a little difficult to obtain therefore a bit more exclusive" has definitely worked for a lot of companies.

When we buy a Wilson, Babolat or Head, we are paying for a ton of marketing and sponsorship and less for materials and R&D.

I live in Canada and have managed to get my hands on Prince rackets and we are about as challenged as some parts of Asia. It wasn't too terribly hard. It does make the demo process a bit harder but can't say I've been disappointed with any of my Prince rackets.

It's the demo issue that's the real killer for me.

 

[Dartagnan64]

It's the demo issue that's the real killer for me.

That I agree with. I like to demo if possible and getting ahold of Prince demos is like pulling teeth here in Canada.

 

[flanker2000fr]

Yes but if they spend all their cash in R&D rather than marketing and sponsorships and expensive distribution models, I'm happy. It's a model that works for Angell. "Create a quality product at a good price and make it a little difficult to obtain therefore a bit more exclusive" has definitely worked for a lot of companies.

When we buy a Wilson, Babolat or Head, we are paying for a ton of marketing and sponsorship and less for materials and R&D.

I live in Canada and have managed to get my hands on Prince rackets and we are about as challenged as some parts of Asia. It wasn't too terribly hard. It does make the demo process a bit harder but can't say I've been disappointed with any of my Prince rackets.

I don't think that Prince is aiming at anything like the model of Angell. They don't aim at exclusivity or specialized distribution through their website.

They don't spend in marketing / endorsements as part as a strategy, but because they are too broke financially to afford it.

I too am happy that they spend whatever $ they have left in R&D rather than marketing / endorsement, which I personally couldn't care less about.

I too was eventually able to get my hands on their products, but I don't feel I should be made to jump through hoops for the privilege of giving them my money. Not when there are excellent alternatives available (Dunlop, Yonex or, indeed, Angell). They are not Rolex or Patek Philippe to allow themselves to create scarcity to maintain exclusivity. On the contrary, if Prince is to survive, they need to find a way to get as many racquets as they can produce to the end customer. This is not going to happen as long as their distribution model is dysfunctional.

 

[haqq777]

If you gel with them, for sure stick with them. They have lots of choices available at least here in the US and I know Japan market has probably way more options. The Phantom line is currently my favorite line for arm friendly racquets. Phantom 100 is one of the softest one out there and helped me when I was recovering from injury a few years ago. I'm also a fan of 93P as well. Lots of options. Doesn't look like it is a dying brand to me

 

[PSC85]

I love prince. They used to command a huge and loyal brand following and actually had some innovative technology that worked. But now it just seems to be taking on the similar path of pro kennex and going for the comfort and arm friendly lines for the nostalgic feels of the yesteryears. That’s fine too. But I’d love to see it back up on top again and being endorsed by over half of the ATP WTA players.


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[PBODY99]

@PSC85
The Tour & Beast lines are aimed at the major market share holders, with their
current specs. The lack of support for juniors & teaching pros mean that the young players are using other brands.
Since most of the lines have non-ported options, that barrier of feeling different from all other frames & the need for a slightly different stringing procedure goes away.
Time will tell if they can regain market share.

 

[Dartagnan64]

They don't spend in marketing / endorsements as part as a strategy, but because they are too broke financially to afford it.

I'm not sure that's at all the case. They have an operating budget that surely will have marketing, endorsements, R&D, Manufacturing costs all worked into it and money could be moved around from manufacturing and R&D to marketing at the cost of innovation and quality materials.

ProKennex, Dunlop, Technifibre and Volkl don't spend a lot on advertising or sponsorship either and at least two of those companies are pretty well established from non-tennis efforts. I think some companies are happy with their niche and the amount of money they'd have to spend to market themselves out of where they are isn't worth it to them.

Prince is like the Nintendo of Tennis.

 

[anandcs]

Wholeheartedly agree on Prince making great frames, that are easy on the arm.

The one thing they have to fix, though, is their distribution, which is atrocious and well below that of Wilson, Babolat, Head, Yonex etc. At least in Asia, their models are difficult to find, and distributed perhaps in 20% of tennis / sports store. Then, you want to order from TW, but they won't ship outside of US / Canada / Australia because of the distribution agreements they have with Prince. So you eventually have to order from TW Europe (who will charge you EUR 20 for their matching service vs. USD 10 from TW US), and don't always have parts you want, e.g. they don't have the grommets for the Phantom 93P. In other words, the international distribution is a complete shambles, and one has to wonder what's the point of busting a gut doing great products if your potential customers can't get them.

The service by TW US to match racquet to manufacturer specs is now $25 since a month or so! At $10 it was a no brainier but at $25 one wonders which brand racquets really need this service. Wilson does, but what about Prince?!

 

[one-hand]

The service by TW US to match racquet to manufacturer specs is now $25 since a month or so! At $10 it was a no brainier but at $25 one wonders which brand racquets really need this service. Wilson does, but what about Prince?!

Here's a no brainer. Stick price $229 + $25 (matching service) = $254

At a lower price, you can get an Angell stick that match YOUR specs not the manufacturer's spec. Add on two additional sets of grommets and it's still cheaper.

 

[TennisHound]

Here's a no brainer. Stick price $229 + $25 (matching service) = $254

At a lower price, you can get an Angell stick that match YOUR specs not the manufacturer's spec.

Everything with TW is going up. Heck they live in Cali, its a wonder everything is not a double markup, lol.

 

[time_fly]

I think Prince is a no-brainer now that Wilson and Babolat have decided to target $250 per racquet. True there are other "cheap" brands but Prince is holding the line on sub-$200 pricing AND produces a lot of widely-known and well-liked racquets.

 

[flanker2000fr]

Here's a no brainer. Stick price $229 + $25 (matching service) = $254

At a lower price, you can get an Angell stick that match YOUR specs not the manufacturer's spec. Add on two additional sets of grommets and it's still cheaper.

The financial case is not as obvious for Prince, as their sticks are typically priced around $ 190, and the variations in weight are not very substantial in my experience. I bought 2 PP100P's and 3 93P's using the TW Europe matching services, and the typical variation between frames was comprised within 3g and 0.2cm balance point, with one instance where the maximum variation in a batch of 6 was 5g (329g to 334g for 93P's). So it is not bad at all.

I think the case is far more compelling with Wilson, with most of their range being $220 - $250, and their specs notoriously off the mark.

Still, I think Angell is a great value proposition at the price they propose, especially since GBP has tumbled vs. USD. It is very compelling to be able to chose one's own specs, knowing that they produce at a high level of quality control, at a price that's really contained. I am pretty sure I will end up buying their products some day - a TC95 63 RA 18x20 at 320g / 10pt HL would probably make me very happy.

 

[haqq777]

I think Prince is a no-brainer now that Wilson and Babolat have decided to target $250 per racquet. True there are other "cheap" brands but Prince is holding the line on sub-$200 pricing AND produces a lot of widely-known and well-liked racquets.

That is indeed a very big positive as far as I am concerned too. I was so pleasantly surprised at $179 for my Phantom 100 and $189 for the 93P.

 

[TennisHound]

Plus, Prince has no gimmicks.

 

[one-hand]

The financial case is not as obvious for Prince, as their sticks are typically priced around $ 190, and the variations in weight are not very substantial in my experience. I bought 2 PP100P's and 3 93P's using the TW Europe matching services, and the typical variation between frames was comprised within 3g and 0.2cm balance point, with one instance where the maximum variation in a batch of 6 was 5g (329g to 334g for 93P's). So it is not bad at all.

I think the case is far more compelling with Wilson, with most of their range being $220 - $250, and their specs notoriously off the mark.

Still, I think Angell is a great value proposition at the price they propose, especially since GBP has tumbled vs. USD. It is very compelling to be able to chose one's own specs, knowing that they produce at a high level of quality control, at a price that's really contained. I am pretty sure I will end up buying their products some day - a TC95 63 RA 18x20 at 320g / 10pt HL would probably make me very happy.

I just ordered one with similar specs except in 16x19. The funny thing is I was never really into custom racquets but it works out to be a more economical option.

 

[ChrisG]

Great product, great customer care, a interesting racket range, customization, no marketing bs, good pricing. Honestly I can't see no reason to go elsewhere.

 

[Rabbit]

Plus, Prince has no gimmicks.

Maybe not any more, but gimmicks (read O ports) is what lead to their downfall.

 

[Dartagnan64]

Maybe not any more, but gimmicks (read O ports) is what lead to their downfall.

The funny thing is O - ports actually worked as far as a gimmick. Compared to Cortex, Graphene, Tungsten, Magnesium.

It's just that too many traditionalists didn't dig the feel or look.

But they do provide spin and comfort.

 

[Ronaldo]

The funny thing is O - ports actually worked as far as a gimmick. Compared to Cortex, Graphene, Tungsten, Magnesium.

It's just that too many traditionalists didn't dig the feel or look.

But they do provide spin and comfort.

Comfort when added to a flexible frame. My elbow knows a fugazi within 15 minutes.