You said Hewitt has a more "complete" game than Safin, inferring that he is better from a technical standpoint. Please do tell us what Safin lacks from a technical standpoint.
Is Marat Safin the most overrated player of all time?
- Thread starter jamesblakefan#1
- Start date
You said Hewitt has a more "complete" game than Safin, inferring that he is better from a technical standpoint. Please do tell us what Safin lacks from a technical standpoint.
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
Safin is less consistent. To me, complete = consistent. So maybe that's where the confusion comes in.
IMO, Hewitt's the better mover than Safin, better at the net than Safin, Safin had bigger serve, FH, and BH. But Hewitt's game was far more consistent, which is why it's more complete than Safin.
Would you rather have a game like Safin-could be great when playing best, but inconsistent and capable of losing to anyone when off your game. Or Hewitt-consistent, great mover, good ball striker, consistent at the net.
To me, consistency makes for the better game, even though Safin is more powerful, he isn't nearly consistent enough, except for 2 matches where he was "on".
IMO, Hewitt's the better mover than Safin, better at the net than Safin, Safin had bigger serve, FH, and BH. But Hewitt's game was far more consistent, which is why it's more complete than Safin.
Would you rather have a game like Safin-could be great when playing best, but inconsistent and capable of losing to anyone when off your game. Or Hewitt-consistent, great mover, good ball striker, consistent at the net.
To me, consistency makes for the better game, even though Safin is more powerful, he isn't nearly consistent enough, except for 2 matches where he was "on".
380pistol
Banned
So let me see.....
And all you come up with ONE inconsistency and TWO lack of dedication. So TWO = SO MANY??? On wht planet??? Mars?????
And yes those are true about Safin, but the thing people say about Safin is if he was mentally stronger and was dedicated, and as not out partying and chasing ass, what woould he have accomplished, based on his game and natural talent/ability???
Hohohohohohohohohoho................ hihihihihihihihihihihihihihihi.............. hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last edited:
Hewitt is not better at net then Safin. I honestly don't know where you are getting your information. Safin was a key player in Russia's DC victories, mainly because Safin was a really good doubles player.
Consistency from Safin is tied to his mentality. From a technical standpoint, Safin stands superior in nearly every category except movement and defense (two areas in which Safin is still really good at when he's playing well).
And there were many matches where Safin was "on". Against Agassi and Roddick at the AO 2004, where he served 50+ aces and 0 double faults. Or his multiple master victories at Paris and Madrid, where he beat Hewitt in one of the finals. Safin has played plenty of good matches in his career; otherwise he wouldn't have reached world #1.
But I mean hey, if consistency is everything, I guess Roddick has a more complete game than Murray and Djokovic, since Roddick is more consistent right?
Last edited:
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
The complete game includes mentality in tennis. Hewitt is one of the strongest mentally of all time, while Safin's one of the weakest mentally of all time.
I see you're back to your usual tactics. Trying to get my attention, since I didn't reply to you in the other thread? If you hate me so much, stay away from me. Leave me the f@ck alone.
I see you're back to your usual tactics. Trying to get my attention, since I didn't reply to you in the other thread? If you hate me so much, stay away from me. Leave me the f@ck alone.
Last edited:
No, mentality is completely separate from your "game" because it's a totally different aspect of tennis. You are changing the subject. By saying Hewitt has a more "complete" game than Safin, you are inferring that Hewitt was superior than Safin from a technical standpoint, which is simply NOT TRUE. No matter how many times you try and put the circle peg into the square hole, it just won't fit my friend.
And Hewitt is tough, but he isn't the most "mentally" tough player out there. I've seen many times where his fiery side gets the better of him, and causes him to go into a complete meltdown. A good example was the USO 2002 SF where Agassi actually frustrated Hewitt and caused him to lose a huge lead in the first set, and pretty much give up in the 4th.
If you want truly the most mentally tough players out there, try Borg or Lendl.
Last edited:
Blinkism
Legend
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
You can say the same for Hewitt.
Hey, we can just agree to differ on our definitions of the "complete" game. To me, mentality and game plan are just as important as technical acumen. Why is it true that Federer and Nadal are not only two of the greatest of all time, but also two of the mentally strongest of all time?
And the fact that Hewitt has won the same # of slams as Safin with, in your words, the less superior technical game, which I don't disagree with, should speak to the importance of mentality in tennis.
Last edited:
380pistol
Banned
Why do you put your ass in your face, and then blame me??? You didn't respond cuz you had nothing logical to say, let's call a spade a spade.
Now look what you said (bolded above) "The complete game includes mentality in tennis.. Come on, you flat out said......
...is this not you??? And it's my fault for laughing, what do you want me to do?? Cry???
Shall we recall another one of your instant classics "TWO = SO MANY"??? How do you expect me not to laugh??? Really??
ChanceEncounter
Professional
The problem is that you have a lot of people telling you exactly why he's an underachiever and why he's not overrated, and you refuse to listen to any of it. I suspect you made this thread to bash Safin, because you evidently have an opinion in mind and you have no intention of changing it.
You said it yourself, he had mental shortcomings and didn't dedicate himself as much as he probably could have, and that's exactly why people say Safin's TALENT is as good as any in the game, because he has the game to beat anyone. Not a lot of players can say that.
I don't see anyone claiming that Safin's one of the greats. They're saying that if Safin had a better mental game, he could be one of the greats. That's a very realistic statement.
This doesn't even make sense. If all those people are "unbeatable" when on, it just creates a paradox when they play each other. You're stuck too much on the semantics and you lose all the meaning altogether. This is not about being "on" or being "unbeatable," but all about how good a player is at their peak/best.
People look at a player's "maximum level" and determine how much talent that individual has. In this case, Safin's top level is as high or higher than any of the names on that list. I think I would trust J-Mac and Federer when they claim Safin's the most talented player they've seen.
Hewitt was not the pivotal key to winning the DC in 2003; he was always a good player, and was going to win alot of singles matches (even though he did win the pivotal match against Federer in the SF). The key was that they actually had depth for once. The Scud all of a sudden decided this year he was going to play well in DC. Woodbridge and Arthurs also won alot of key doubles matches that year.
Safin on the other hand, had literally no one to carry his team in 2002. Safin won alot of clutch matches this year. 2006, Safin also had to win alot of key double matches to keep Russia in ties.
Last edited:
jamesblakefan#1
G.O.A.T.
My point is, why does Safin get all of the excuses? He's had a great career, could it have been better? Yes, but to say he would have 6-10 slams "If only..." to me is overrating him. That's just my opinion.
There's a lot of guys who have great games. Tsonga's a guy right now, great game. He gets love on here, but nowhere near Safin levels. Berdych is another guy I mentioned. A lot of talented players in the history of tennis don't live up to expectation. That's just a part of life.
I'm not saying that everyone is overrating Safin, per se, just the people in particular who peg him as an 8-10 slam guy, "If only...", to me is overrating him. What's to say conditioning wise he'd have won that many, even if healthy? There's a lot of things that go into winning slams, and to say he'd have 6-10 easily, especially with Fed and Nadal around, to me is overrating him. That's all.
I'm not saying he's not a good player. Just not "6-10 slams" good, that's all.
There's a lot of guys who have great games. Tsonga's a guy right now, great game. He gets love on here, but nowhere near Safin levels. Berdych is another guy I mentioned. A lot of talented players in the history of tennis don't live up to expectation. That's just a part of life.
I'm not saying that everyone is overrating Safin, per se, just the people in particular who peg him as an 8-10 slam guy, "If only...", to me is overrating him. What's to say conditioning wise he'd have won that many, even if healthy? There's a lot of things that go into winning slams, and to say he'd have 6-10 easily, especially with Fed and Nadal around, to me is overrating him. That's all.
I'm not saying he's not a good player. Just not "6-10 slams" good, that's all.
Well, look at it this way: Tsonga has 0 Slams, 1 final, and no wins over a #1 player vs. Safin, who beat Federer and Sampras (not only #1 players, but GOAT candidates for crying out loud) on his way to two Slams. A lot was expected of him, and he did not live up to that. You can argue it was for lack of talent (an argument I would say was plain silly), but don't compare to a Tsonga or a Berdych. (I like both of those guys, but they still haven't won a Slam yet)
MarcRosset1992
Rookie
any WTA player will more over-rated than Safin
lambielspins
Banned
OK in this case Safin's best vs Federer's best I would say:
on grass: Federer wins 10 out of 10
on clay: Federer wins 9 out of 10
on fast hard courts: Federer wins 8 out of 10
on rebound ace: Federer wins 6 out of 10
Safin's best vs Nadal's best I would say:
on clay: Nadal wins 10 out of 10
on grass: Nadal wins 9 out of 10
on rebound ace: Nadal wins 6 out of 10
on fast hard courts: Safin wins 6 out of 10
So even at that it still wouldnt be the case. I have seen Safin late in 2004 play a couple great matches indoors and lose to Roddick for crying out loud. At the 2005 Australian Open when he was playing some of his best tennis ever, you know the event Safin fanatics like to use as the example of his being "unbeatable" all times at this best, he still had a very hard time with Hewitt in the final, losing the first set and being down in the 3rd set. If it is possible he can play really well and lose to Roddick or Hewitt then he will lose the vast majority of the time vs Federer and Nadal if both are playing really well, especialy since he isnt even close to the all surface player either is.
They NEVER said that. Please direct me to one quote where either claim that. I remember McEnroe at the U.S Open in 2006 was asked by Bill McAtee if Safin rated up with Federer in terms of talent and McEnroe claimed that would be too much since Federer was one of the most talented players he ever saw but he considered Safin as equal to the next most talented players in the game at the time AFTER Federer without a doubt. This of course is before Nadal's non clay court talents became more apparent.
I really can't say about the J-Mac quote one way or another...if he did say it at all he probably said it around 2000.
You can't say because Safin lost to Roddick that he is a bad player. That would be like saying because Federer lost to Safin, Fed's a bad player.
The numbers you came up with are pure speculation and not worth arguing over.
And the question was whether or not Safin is overrated. If Mac says that "Safin is equal to the next most talented players in the game AFTER Federer" that would still put him in the league of an Agassi or Mac. That means 8 or more Slams. And the guy has a measly TWO! 8 -2=6. So, yes the guy has come off as a disappointment, given the expectations everyone had for him.
Madhoshi22
Rookie
I agree with that.
Back on topic, I don't think he's over-rated, he had plenty of game, he just didn't have it all together between the ears so to speak. There's a difference between over-rated, and under achieving (which I think is Safin's case). He clearly possessed all of the tools necessary to be the best in the sport, he just didn't have the commitment or the drive all the time to be the best. He's easily one of the cleanest and purest ballstrikers to ever pick up a stick, and his groundies were probably the biggest around for a while. I think that's more than enough to say that had he gotten his act together, he definitely could have had more slams in his resume.
That being said, his antics, attitude, and general demeanor on court provided for much entertainment, and laughs. He is definitely one of my favorite players to watch, and I will miss him when he hangs up his sticks.
Federer's cat
Banned
I saw Safin hit with Berdych up close at the qualifying at the US Open, and my mouth was dropping. It was crazy the way he hit the ball, I don't think he's overrated because of the matches he's played at his best, like the Australian Open SF in 2005.
The most overrated player is either Roddick or Blake.
The most overrated player is either Roddick or Blake.
lambielspins
Banned
He said next level of talent after Federer meaning only amongst then "current" players, he did not mean in history. With Federer winning almost all the non Frenchs and Nadal winning all the Frenchs there is virtually no opportunity for Safin to win additional slams from 2004 onwards. By 2008 he is already 28 and past his prime. In 2003 he missed almost the whole year with injury. So the only real opportunities he had to win more majors was 2000-2002. Even then he probably cant realistically win at the French or Wimbledon, so I guess you look at the Australians won by Johansson and an aged Agassi, the U.S Opens won by Hewitt and an aged Sampras as his only real chances for more.
Last edited:
Madhoshi22
Rookie
Like I said, in my opinion, one of the cleanest and purest ball-strikers in tennis history.
Which means 2-3 more slams, which is a realistic number for Safin's level of talent. Let's be real; Safin is honestly far more talented than Novak Djokovic, and until further notice, he "was" a better player than Murray.
He IS overrated on THIS specific board; however to say that he "maximized" his level of talent, is abit of an absurd comment.
zagor
Bionic Poster
Rios and Safin don't belong in the same sentence talentwise as far as I'm concerned.When has Rios proven he can beat the best on the big stage? Safin has,he won his 2 slams beating Fed and Sampras when both of them were playing at a high level,especially Fed who was at his very peak IMO.Rios got past the quarters of a slam ONCE in his career and received a complete beatdown by an old(for tennis standards)Korda.Korda was a very good player,very talented shotmaker(beatuiful BH)but he doesn't really compare to the likes Sampras and Fed and yet Rios couldn't even make a match out of it.
Better career I'll give you that one but more complete game? Disagree,Hewitt has better movement and defense and probably has the edge on return of serve although that one is tough to call(I think Hewitt has a great return of serve but I think Safin's very underrated in that department).Safin has much more powerful groundstrokes,much better serve,just much more imposing game overall.Safin is an underachiever given his talent and physical attributes,Hewitt is the opposite.
zagor
Bionic Poster
and like lambiel said, there's loads of guys right now close to unbeatable when on their game:
Djokovic
Murray
Gonzo
Gasquet (RIP)
Nalbandian (HIP)
Heck, even Karlovic, you can say when his serve is on, when he hits 100% first serves, he is unbeatable. That's his game, his serve. And when his game is "on", he is unbeatable. That doesn't make Karlovic one of the greats.
Safin one of the most talented of all time? With 2 slams? I'm not buying it. Bottom line-at the end of the day, talent = slams.
That's simply not true,of course talent plays a big role in it but mental toughness,fitness,injuries etc. are all factors that come into play when it comes to winning slams.Talent is just one part of the equation.
Or would you say that for example,Kafelnikov or Chang are as talented as Michael Stich? Or that Wilander is more talented than Becker? Connors more talented than Mcenroe?
zagor
Bionic Poster
That was another great match, the backhand was on fire in the last 3 sets, winners everywhere.
Yes but it did help a bit that Roddick was constantly approaching the net on Gasquet's BH side.
Thomas Tung
Rookie
Kafelnikov overrated? That's news to me; I always thought that he underachieved, and should have gotten 2 more slams. Also, the Y-Man had a extremely consistent time in the top 10: '95-late '98, and then '99-mid '02. That's around 7-8 years, and being (admittedly briefly) #1, having 2 slams and a Olympic gold, and accomplishing all of this in the shadow of two people named Sampras and Agassi? Not too shabby if you ask me. Funny side note: had a wonderful record against that most troublesome of "upset artists", Fabrice Santoro; Kafelnikov was 6-0 lifetime against Fabrice.
zagor
Bionic Poster
Sorry but no player who is among the weakest mentally of all time can beat Fed and Sampras in slams,especially in the latest stages(SF,F) of the slam like Safin did.
Leublu tennis
Legend
And a toilet.
Leublu tennis
Legend
Do you know anything about Kafelnikov? Read this:
He won two Grand Slam singles titles (one French Open and one Australian Open), four Grand Slam doubles titles, and the men's singles gold medal at the Sydney Olympic Games. He also helped Russia win the Davis Cup [for the first time] in 2002. He is the last man to have won both the singles and men's doubles titles at the same Grand Slam tournament, which he did at the 1996 French Open.
Need more?
Career singles record: 609–306
Career titles: 26
Highest ranking: No. 1 (May 3, 1999)
Career doubles record: 358–213
Career titles: 27
Highest ranking: No. 4 (March 30, 1998)
Overrated you say? Only if you call him GOAT, but as one of the greatest of time, thats right on.
LT
I do think that injures and the lack of mental toughness played part in what they call not living to his potential,but somehow I feel the lack of support team was main problem for him,everybody has someone Roger has Mirka ,Rafa tio Tony,Djokovic his parents,Aggasi had that person which now works for Addidas,Justin had Hernandez,Serena and Venus had there father,he never had anyone who whoud control him ,he is on his own from his early teens,and when I read some interview,everything he would say is "made in" Safin head,and when I read Federer ,Rafa interviews not everything they say is just Federer Rafa thinking,you can feel influence of other people in there lives
thalivest
Banned
Kafelnikov wasnt even good enough to win a freaking Masters title, the best person he beat (surface considered) to win a slam was Todd Martin, was 0-9 vs Sampras on non clay matches, went on a 9 match losing streak to Tomas Johansson, in his prime was getting totally owned by a teenaged Hewitt, and a couple of you say he underachieved to win only 2 slams!?!?! Thank you for proving my point 200% how overrated he is. He had a lucky horseshoe wedged up his ass to ever win 2 slams.
N
nikdom
Guest
No one said he's the greatest, nor does (did) anyone trumpet him for winning any slams recently so I don't know why he should be billed "overrated"!
Of course he will be recognized, respected and given his due for his talent and for the few times his game did click.
I won't forget the way he dismantled Sampras at the 2000 USO. He gave Roger something to think about in 2005 at the Aussie.
He's played other great matches, including w/ Roger at the Houston masters. So its not like he's the Anna Kournikova of Men's tennis.
Plus he's a very likeable guy and almost tragic figure with so many disappointments professionally. But he's lived life off court like a rock star and I daresay any other tennis pro (other than Agassi) has had as much success with the ladies as him.
So in my book Safin is definitely a success.
Of course he will be recognized, respected and given his due for his talent and for the few times his game did click.
I won't forget the way he dismantled Sampras at the 2000 USO. He gave Roger something to think about in 2005 at the Aussie.
He's played other great matches, including w/ Roger at the Houston masters. So its not like he's the Anna Kournikova of Men's tennis.
Plus he's a very likeable guy and almost tragic figure with so many disappointments professionally. But he's lived life off court like a rock star and I daresay any other tennis pro (other than Agassi) has had as much success with the ladies as him.
So in my book Safin is definitely a success.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
In terms of the talent he had when he was dialed in and actually focusing on the match he is in no way overrated. Based on how little he accomplished when comapred to the hype surrounding his talent however, the arguement can be made he is an underacheiver. Overrated no, underacheiver yes.
boredone3456
G.O.A.T.
Kafelnikov is the Male equivalent of Jennifer Capriati. did he have some talent, yes. But was he really talented enough where he should have won 2 majors and held the number 1 ranking, sorry I don't think so, as thalivest said, he had a horseshoe implanted somewhere on his body that gave him some incredible luck. Safin is way ahead of Kafelnikov, and suggesting otherwise is like saying Capriati is lightyears ahead of Lindsay Davenport.
Last edited:
N
nikdom
Guest
nolefam_2024
Bionic Poster
Very overrated power baseliner
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Says the guy who started watching tennis in 2012.
Safin is a bigtime underachiever, that's it.
CHillTennis
Hall of Fame
CHillTennis
Hall of Fame
The only player to have defeated both Federer and Sampras in a grand slam semi-final and final, respectively.
Razer
G.O.A.T.
Rubbish video... lol...medvedev in the conversation ? ... hahaha .... your youtube channel is a joke brother
CHillTennis
Hall of Fame
Thank you. I appreciate the plug.
NAS
Hall of Fame
Overrated lol, if he was not headcase and injured, he was winning around 4-6 hc major, see how he manhandled Hewitt in Paris master final.
Really sad to see such a player going to waste
I still remember his Hamburg and Paris epic five setter in final in final 2000
He defeated guga defending champion as a qualifier in second round, everything was epic with safin.
Atleast Safin us open win was legit
Dane_is_Finnish_OJ
Legend
Yes, you do. Rios is totally overrated.
Tennfan123
Legend
Not sure how a player who won 2 slams, made other finals and reached No.1, and has arguably one of the greatest baseline games of all time can be overrated.
Underachiever, for sure.
Similar threads
