Is Martina Navratilova the overall tennis greatest ever ??

GabeT said:
Can’t compare men’s and women’s tennis

But even just among women why are slam titles so different than other tournaments. Aren’t they all Bo3?
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I'm surprised that a veteran such as yourself would make such a comment.
Just for starters, the field of players participating at the slams is much bigger than at the non-slams.
 
She definitely has to be in the conversation. Great athlete who excelled at singles and doubles with a beautiful all-around game. Exceptionally long playing career. Also a a long-time contributor as an author and commentator where she has shared her insights with all of us. Took some chances in her personal life that included a change in citizenship, a public battle with illness, and being straightforward about her personal lifestyle choices. She seems like a kind and very honest person. She's just a treasure to the broader tennis community and absolutely one of the best to ever do it. When you stack all of that up, the conversation about the singular GOAT just seems trite to me.
 
Mark-Touch said:
I'm surprised that a veteran such as yourself would make such a comment.
Just for starters, the field of players participating at the slams is much bigger than at the non-slams.
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Sure but the “extra” players are, almost by definition, players much lower ranked. Is that really worth that much?

I’m a Novak fan but have long argued we place too much emphasis on slams. And if that’s true for men’s tennis I think it even more true for the WTA
 
ND-13 said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1804533790515028005
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In absolute terms no.

She could not beat the top men then or now.

If we’re going to afford her the possibility - giving her “credit” so to speak, because she’s obviously limited by her gender - then why don’t we include wheelchair tennis players in the question to “correct for” all physical limitations?

Why don’t we invite juniors into the discussion - or seniors?

If we correct for sex, why don’t we correct for disability or age?

Simply put - “the greatest player” - full stop - shouldn’t be someone who would obviously lose horribly to another group of players who aren’t even ranked in the top 10.

But she would probably lose to any of the top 100 men of her own day, very badly.

As Serena put it honestly to David Letterman: Andy Murray “would beat me 6-0, 6-0, in five to six minutes”.
 
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Federev said:
In absolute terms no.

She could not beat the top men then or now.

If we’re going to afford her the possibility - giving her “credit” so to speak because she’s obviously limited by her gender - then why don’t we include wheelchair tennis players in the question to “correct for” all physical limitations?

Why don’t we invite juniors into the discussion - or seniors?

If we correct for sex, why don’t we correct for disability or age?

Simply put - “the greatest player” - full stop - shouldn’t be someone who would obviously lose horribly to another group of players who aren’t even ranked in the top 10.

But she would probably lose to any of the top 100 men of her own day, very badly.

As Serena put it honestly: Andy Murray “would beat me 6-0, 6-0, in five to six minutes”.
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I am not sure I agree with the logic

Both men’s and women’s tennis are the premier events of the majors , where men and women of full physical ability compete and there is competition from all around the world.

The way we have to see is the whole body of work that has been put in by the player, the results individually and as well as in relation to the competition, how much the player moved the sport forward , what kind of impact the person had on the sport and so on .
 
Mark-Touch said:
I'm surprised that a veteran such as yourself would make such a comment.
Just for starters, the field of players participating at the slams is much bigger than at the non-slams.
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But they also get an extra day of rest often not afforded at masters, etc.

So there is a solid argument that - in terms of physical challenge - the ladies slams are less demanding than their other tournaments.
 
Federev said:
In absolute terms no.

She could not beat the top men then or now.

If we’re going to afford her the possibility - giving her “credit” so to speak, because she’s obviously limited by her gender - then why don’t we include wheelchair tennis players in the question to “correct for” all physical limitations?

Why don’t we invite juniors into the discussion - or seniors?

If we correct for sex, why don’t we correct for disability or age?

...
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​

It depends how you define "absolute".
The question asked was:

Is Martina Navratilova the overall tennis greatest ever ?​

​

I was never really a Nav fan when she was playing, but I always respected her abilities and achievements.
If we are talking about greatest in terms of achievements, I don't know any other player who comes close to all the records she set.
 
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ND-13 said:
I am not sure I agree with the logic

Both men’s and women’s tennis are the premier events of the majors , where men and women of full physical ability compete and there is competition from all around the world.

The way we have to see is the whole body of work that has been put in by the player, the results individually and as well as in relation to the competition, how much the player moved the sport forward , what kind of impact the person had on the sport and so on .
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If that’s the case, I think the term should be “greatest tennis legend” or “greatest icon” or “most celebrated”.

Not being a troll. If you call it greatest tennis player, then it should be for tennis playing.

To be the greatest player, you should have a fair argument that - at your best- you could beat anyone else - at their best.

And btw - I don’t really think this is objectively calculable except in maybe a few cases. Rafa is probably the greatest clay player. Can’t imagine anyone close actually. I think Federer had the greatest peak level off clay and is the closest thing off clay I think there is to a GOAT because of that, but Novak has the greatest objective argument for his accomplishments to be the GOAT.

But Martina? “Greatest Women’s Player Ever”? Maybe! “Greatest Impact”? “greatest ambassador”. Maybe she’s in the running for those, though there are others ahead of her, I think.

But as a player she would get flat out destroyed by any of the top 100 men of her day. So it’s not a question for me.
 
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HopeHawk76 said:
She definitely has to be in the conversation. Great athlete who excelled at singles and doubles with a beautiful all-around game. Exceptionally long playing career. Also a a long-time contributor as an author and commentator where she has shared her insights with all of us. Took some chances in her personal life that included a change in citizenship, a public battle with illness, and being straightforward about her personal lifestyle choices. She seems like a kind and very honest person. She's just a treasure to the broader tennis community and absolutely one of the best to ever do it. When you stack all of that up, the conversation about the singular GOAT just seems trite to me.
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I believe Court has 62 overall slam titles, in an era when doubles and mixed were very important slam titles. Court, King, Wade, Cassals, Turner, Richey, Bueno, Jones and a few more were great or outstanding singles players who also competed in doubles. Navratilova was perhaps the only great singles player of her era who competed in doubles. Still, Navratilova would have been a great doubles player in any era.
 
Federev said:
If that’s the case, I think the term be “greatest tennis legend” or “greatest icon” or “most celebrated”.

Not being a troll. If you call it greatest tennis player, then it should be for tennis playing.

To be the greatest player, you should have a fair argument that - at your best- could beat anyone else - at their best.

And btw - I don’t really think this is calculable except in maybe a few cases. Rafa is probably inarguably the greatest clay player. Federer - to me - has the greatest peak level and is the closest thing off clay that I think there is to a GOAT because of that, but Novak has maybe the greatest objective argument for his accomplishments.

But Martina? “Greatest Wonens Player Ever”? Maybe! Greatest Impact”? “greatest ambassador”. Maybe she’s in the running for those.

But as a player she would get flat out destroyed by any of the top 100 men of her day. So it’s not a question for me.
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Greatest means greatest achievements. No one comes close to her overall achievements.
 
thrust said:
I believe Court has 62 overall slam titles, in an era when doubles and mixed were very important slam titles. Court, King, Wade, Cassals, Turner, Richey, Bueno, Jones and a few more were great or outstanding singles players who also competed in doubles. Navratilova was perhaps the only great singles player of her era who competed in doubles. Still, Navratilova would have been a great doubles player in any era.
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Several top players played doubles during Martina’s reign . Just that Martina and Pam were too solid
 
She is in the discussion.
hendry.webp


Steffi Graf is the one for me.
 
ND-13 said:
I am not sure I agree with the logic

Both men’s and women’s tennis are the premier events of the majors , where men and women of full physical ability compete and there is competition from all around the world.

The way we have to see is the whole body of work that has been put in by the player, the results individually and as well as in relation to the competition, how much the player moved the sport forward , what kind of impact the person had on the sport and so on .
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The strongest Dog in the world is still weaker than the average lion/ tiger ..... Doesn't matter if it is the GOAT DOG and a MUG LION / MUG TIGER

Hope that gives you logic ?

If any human being has the claim of being the best then that person cannot be getting straight setted to any gender or any human.

Navratilova is nothing... she isn't even better than an average player like Yannik Noah of her time, let alone superior athletes like Djokovic or Federer or Nadal.
 
I’d put her up there with Graf and Court for female GOAT, with Serena just a little behind.

Overall women’s tennis isn’t same greatness as men’s due to lower level so I’d keep them separate to be fair on the ladies.
 
Martina is the most dominant female player of all time. She’s my pick for female GOAT. Her run from 1982-86 is what sealed the deal. And I won’t even include her records in doubles play. I’m talking only about singles play.

She owns 5 of the top 11 longest winning streaks.

She owns 4 of the top 6 seasons for winning pct.

Here’s a record that she has that I have never realized before:

Her are the WTA players that won an event 8+ times in the Open Era

12 Chicago titles. Martina
11 Eastbourne titles. Martina
9 Wimbledon titles. Martina
9 Dallas Titles. Martina
9 German Open titles. Steffi
8 WTA Tour Finals. Martina
8 Los Angeles titles. Martina
8 Miami titles. Serena
8 Family Circle titles. Evert.
 
Federev said:
Ok - so that’s what greatest means to you.

So - for you - what would the term be for the person who played the greatest tennis of all time?
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This, believe it or not is a very very difficult question to answer, because it is SO subjective.
When you eliminate achievements you are left with aesthetics.
And as we all know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

To me Mecir played some of the greatest tennis I ever watched.
Yet few would consider him a great or the greatest.
 
Federev said:
Ok - so that’s what greatest means to you.

So - for you - what would the term be for the person who played the greatest tennis of all time?
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I think "overall tennis great" must mean overall achievements.

What does "play the greatest tennis of all time" mean? Are you talking about the highest level for a short while, like in peak tennis? That will have little in common with "overall", I think.

59 slams... winning in all three categories in the same slam tournament, is truly legendary.
 
junior74 said:
I think "overall tennis great" must mean overall achievements.

What does "play the greatest tennis of all time" mean? Are you talking about the highest level for a short while, like in peak tennis? That will have little in common with "overall", I think.

59 slams... winning in all three categories in the same slam tournament, is truly legendary.
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Yeah - I’ve always thought GOAT should be the best over all level. And not a fluke level. Something that really represents your peak years.

That’s my definition.

And that’s why I think Fed - off clay - is the greatest.

But for sure it’s hard to calculate.

That’s how the big 3 fan wars live on around here.
 
Federev said:
In absolute terms no.

She could not beat the top men then or now.

If we’re going to afford her the possibility - giving her “credit” so to speak, because she’s obviously limited by her gender - then why don’t we include wheelchair tennis players in the question to “correct for” all physical limitations?

Why don’t we invite juniors into the discussion - or seniors?

If we correct for sex, why don’t we correct for disability or age?

Simply put - “the greatest player” - full stop - shouldn’t be someone who would obviously lose horribly to another group of players who aren’t even ranked in the top 10.

But she would probably lose to any of the top 100 men of her own day, very badly.

As Serena put it honestly: Andy Murray “would beat me 6-0, 6-0, in five to six minutes”.
Click to expand...
She actually said 10 mins to 15 mins :p
 
Federev said:
Yeah - I’ve always thought GOAT should be the best over all level. And not a fluke level. Something that really represents your peak years.

That’s my definition.

And that’s why I think Fed - off clay - is the greatest.

But for sure it’s hard to calculate.

That’s how the big 3 fan wars live on around here.
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I see... Level is hard to measure. But there is little doubt Federer and Djokovic were more dominant than Nadal for a longer time.

I have always tought Navratilova was the most "impressive of all time" due to her success in slams overall - imagine how nuts we would be today, if a player went on to win in singles, doubles and mixed doubles in the same slam!!! We thought it was crazy when Kyrgios played in all categories in Wimbledon a few years back... Navratilova did this every year... and won/ made finals A LOT! Fvcking legend!
 
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Martina is my personal favorite women's player of all time.

However IMO overall GOAT is between the two that own the biggest historical record that this game is built on, the slams. The two at the top of the mountain are Court and Djokovic, the two most decorated champions of all time. 24 slams speaks volumes. Those two have the greatest trophy cabinets and winning is everything. Either Djokovic breaks the tie to become the overall GOAT, or a new player rises up and surpasses them both.
 
Hitman said:
The two at the top of the mountain are Court and Djokovic, the two most decorated champions of all time. 24 slams speaks volumes. Those two have the greatest trophy cabinets and winning is everything. Either Djokovic breaks the tie to become the overall GOAT, or a new player rises up and surpasses them both.
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LOL "Slam"

1961 Australian Championships – Women's singles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
where 44 of 44 players were local Australians. My local open tournament has a higher level than this. Calling wins like this a "Slam" is a complete joke and insult to players that won real tournaments.

Imagine thinking that 61 AO is equivalent in any way shape or form to something like this;

1988 Australian Open – Women's singles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
Women and men aside of course but in terms of women her stake to the title is insane. Don’t even need to go into the stats but it’s between herself, Graf, Evert and Serena.

Anyone who mentions Court doesn’t understand tennis history or how like 5 of Margarets slams she played 4 matches against only Australians.
 
Hitman said:
Martina is my personal favorite women's player of all time.

However IMO overall GOAT is between the two that own the biggest historical record that this game is built on, the slams. The two at the top of the mountain are Court and Djokovic, the two most decorated champions of all time. 24 slams speaks volumes. Those two have the greatest trophy cabinets and winning is everything. Either Djokovic breaks the tie to become the overall GOAT, or a new player rises up and surpasses them both.
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But you see, even you are cherry-picking.
In your case you are cherry-picking the singles slams from the total slam count.
We must not discount doubles slams, simply because they pay the players less money or a team of players is involved.

As former Canadian Prime Minister Chretien used to say, “I don't know. A trophy is a trophy. What kind of a trophy? It's a trophy. A trophy is a trophy, and when you have a good trophy, it's because it's trophied.” :)
 
Aussie Darcy said:
Women and men aside of course but in terms of women her stake to the title is insane. Don’t even need to go into the stats but it’s between herself, Graf, Evert and Serena.

Anyone who mentions Court doesn’t understand tennis history or how like 5 of Margarets slams she played 4 matches against only Australians.
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That wasn't her fault. She was the biggest home player and expected to play her home Slam. Like her or not, she has the Slam record (well, jointly with Djokovic now). That's what the record books state. They simply record the history.
 
Mainad said:
That wasn't her fault. She was the biggest home player and expected to play her home Slam. Like her or not, she has the Slam record (well, jointly with Djokovic now). That's what the record books state. They simply record the history.
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Facts are facts I’m not saying she doesn’t technically have the record but it doesn’t take a genius to look at how Court got the majority of her slams vs the others.
 
Hitman said:
Martina is my personal favorite women's player of all time.

However IMO overall GOAT is between the two that own the biggest historical record that this game is built on, the slams. The two at the top of the mountain are Court and Djokovic, the two most decorated champions of all time. 24 slams speaks volumes. Those two have the greatest trophy cabinets and winning is everything. Either Djokovic breaks the tie to become the overall GOAT, or a new player rises up and surpasses them both.
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I don't necessarily agree with this; regarding Court. To your defense, Court did some amazing things, like winning 6 straight slam titles, a CYGS, and 3 legs of the grand slam the first year back after having a baby. And her 11-2 record in slam finals in the Open Era while playing some of those past her peak, is truly GOAT-level clutch play. This includes 4-1 at the AO, 3-0 at the FO, 3-0 at the USO, and 1-1 at Wimbledon.

As for Open Era records, Court owns the highest winning pct at 3 different slam events. And some of that was past her prime.

AO: 21-1, .955
FO: 20-1, .952
USO: 29-3, .906

Ok, maybe Court has a stronger case than I realized. You might be onto something.
 
Mainad said:
Exactly, facts are facts. The majority of her Slam wins were not in Australia anyway (13 v 11).
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And of the 11 in Australia how many were only 4 matches played and won? And also how many were against only Aussies?

Facts are facts but when you look at the amount of matches and who was in the field you gotta laugh. Even Evert, BJK and Navratilova all admitted that nobody bothered coming to Australia that often each year for the AO. But hey kudos to Margaret. Everyone clearly loves her and she clearly loves everyone on earth with her kind heart.
 
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Aussie Darcy said:
And of the 11 in Australia how many were only 4 slam victories? And also how many were against only Aussies?

Facts are facts but when you look at the amount of matches and who was in the field lol. Even Evert, BJK and Navratilova all admitted that nobody bothered coming to Australia that often each year. But hey kudos to Margaret. Everyone clearly loves her and she clearly loves everyone on earth with her kind heart.
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Don't get me wrong, I have no love for Court and deplore some of her public attitudes but I always separate that from her achivements as a player which can't be denied.
 
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