Is McEnroe the greatest indoor player of all time?

Who’s the best indoor player of all time?

  • Total voters
    26
Pheasant

Pheasant

G.O.A.T.
Ok, I admit that I can be biased. But I think that numbers can back up my favorite player of all time. He has by far the highest career winning pct for indoor play with an incredible .853 mark. His 52 indoor titles trails Connors by 1. But his winning pct trounces Connors by 37 points.

What do you guys think?

Here’s the link that posts the highest winning pct indoors for a career.

Win/Loss Index | ATP Tour | Tennis

In-depth data analysis of the performance of ATP Tour players. Featuring year-to-date, 52-week, and career data for the top players in men's professional tennis.
www.atptour.com www.atptour.com
 
Hopefully, some of the stats gurus around here can add some more indoor stats to the equation. I could not find winning percentages vs-10 players, among other things.
 
My gut always says Lendl but Mac edges him out on % and titles. Connor with 53 is pretty amazing. I mean, you look at these top guys winning 80% or more of their matches, with very small differences between them. It's another GOAT list, essentially.
 
It's a close call between McEnroe and Lendl. But all in all I'd say that Mac's indoor Davis Cup activity is a decisive tiebreaker in his favour, with his 16-1 record in live singles rubbers on indoor carpet / hard, compared to Lendl's 5-1 record (i.e. ignoring team outcomes and just focusing on their individual singles matches). Admittedly from Lendl's shortened Davis Cup career, most of the ties that he played in (home and away) were on clay.

During the mutual period when both Mac and Lendl were in their primes, the Davis Cup was essentially as important as a major, so Davis Cup matches should carry plenty of weight.

On a very subjective note, the most impressed I've ever been by any individual indoor performance, was Mac's vs. Lendl in the 1984 Brussels final, during which he nearly won twice as many points as Lendl. It was hugely impressive that he dished out drubbings to Lendl in the 1983 and 1984 Masters finals, while Lendl dished out drubbings to him and Becker in the 1982 and 1986 Masters finals respectively.

I will say that out of everyone that played exclusively within the open era, Lendl's official title count including his official indoor title count, was the most understated. His record in lucrative, high quality, unsanctioned invitational events (mostly indoors) was better than anyone else's. I personally also count the following 17 additional indoor title wins by Lendl.

Antwerp x 5 (1982, 1984, 1985, 1987, 1989)
Challenge of Champions x 3 (1982, 1985, 1988)
Toronto Indoor x 2 (1982, 1984)
Milan x 1 (1981)
Melbourne x 1 (1982)
Stuttgart Indoor x 1 (1989)
Chicago x 1 (1989)
Hong Kong x 3 (1990, 1991, 1992)
 
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Laver unfortunately was quite old during the Open Era. That said, his Open Era stats were quite impressive for his age. I think that Borg was 25-7 vs the top-5 on carpet, which is absolutely insane.

Lendl had a rocking record vs the top-5 on carpet and he made an astonishing 9 consecutive YE tourney finals in a row. He won consecutive YE titles without dropping a set; which is absolutely mind-boggling(1 set lost total during his 3-year run)

Becker and Sampras had some insane peaks on carpet.

This battle is tough to pick. So I had to go with Mac.
 
Pheasant said:
Lendl had a rocking record vs the top-5 on carpet and he made an astonishing 9 consecutive YE tourney finals in a row. He won consecutive YE titles without dropping a set; which is absolutely mind-boggling(1 set lost total during his 3-year run)
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Lendl only faced one bp at '86 Masters(broken by Gomez). Beat Edberg, Noah, Wilander, Becker without facing a bp. Possibly the best week anyone has ever had at any indoor event(and Lendl played 5 straight days)
 
On the Davis Cup theme, Becker had a 23-1 record in live singles Davis Cup rubbers on indoor carpet / hard, with wins vs. Edberg twice, McEnroe, Agassi, Krajicek etc. The one defeat was to Paul Haarhuis in the opening rubber of Germany's tie away to the Netherlands in 1995. And he more than made up for that defeat, by teaming up with Stich to beat the elite doubles pairing of Eltingh / Haarhuis, before recording that win vs. Krajicek to seal victory in the tie.

I've always thought on a general note that McEnroe and Becker clearly would have won (even) more individual titles, had they not been so deeply committed towards the Davis Cup for periods. Their heroics or generally incredible, battling efforts in that competition, including in difficult / awkward away ties, meant that they were clearly jaded or sometimes even downright injured when they returned to the individual circuit and entered subsequent tournaments.
 
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Gizo said:
On the Davis Cup theme, Becker had a 23-1 record in live singles Davis Cup rubbers on indoor carpet / hard, with wins vs. Edberg twice, McEnroe, Agassi, Krajicek etc. The one defeat was to Paul Haarhuis in the opening rubber of Germany's tie away to the Netherlands in 1995. And he more than made up for that defeat, by teaming up with Stich to beat the elite doubles pairing of Eltingh / Haarhuis, before recording that win vs. Krajicek to seal victory in the tie.

I've always thought on a general note that McEnroe and Becker clearly would have won (even) more individual titles, had they not been so deeply committed towards the Davis Cup for periods. Their heroics or generally incredible, battling efforts in that competition, including in difficult / awkward away ties, meant that they were clearly jaded or sometimes even downright injured when they returned to the individual circuit and entered subsequent tournaments.
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Yes, I was always impressed by JMac taking Davis Cup so seriously. Kudos.
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
Has winning H2H against both Mac and Lendl on carpet.
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So do you put him 6th or higher than that?

H2H alone is not a great barometer for ranking though IMO and the examples of that I could use are countless. Even moreso in the case of Lendl and Borg who are hardly real contemporaries. If I put Borg above Mcenroe and/or Lend on carpet it would not be because of an individual H2H mainly.
 
Borg is a massive woulda coulda shoulda. Nobody comes close to his 25-7 record vs the top-5 on carpet. I know that this doesn’t tell the whole story. But it does tell us that he could whip the best of them at a very high frequency.

His peak is might very well be top-2 on clay, grass, and carpet. That kind of versatility makes him a tier-1 ATG in my book.
 
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LttlElvis said:
I can’t quantify it, but McEnroe is the greatest player of all time. I guess you have to have lived and watched him live during his era to understand.
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I don't get into the GOAT stuff, but do feel privileged to get to watch JMac play tennis live in his prime . Very, very special.
 
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Vincent-C said:
I don't get into the GOAT stuff, but do feel privileged to get to watch JMac play tennis live in his prime . Very, very special.
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Definitely one of a kind. When folks say "oh today's players would demolish him" I just chuckle. None of them ever had to face someone like Mac...his game is very unique and deadly effective when he's on point. At his best, he could shut down the baseline games of Connors and Lendl, which is no small feat.
 
Dan Lobb said:
Are you suggesting that McEnroe played with those old wood racquets?
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McEnroe is overrated and have the luck to play in an era where hes caratheristics where good enough to win something. Camon now, McEnroe whit any raquet u want is still highly overrated
 
Fabrivitx said:
McEnroe is overrated and have the luck to play in an era where hes caratheristics where good enough to win something. Camon now, McEnroe whit any raquet u want is still highly overrated
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McEnroe had to struggle with those old wood contraptions.

Here is AI analysis,

"John McEnroe played with wood racquets, notably winning four Grand Slam titles with them and being the last player to win a major tournament with a wooden racquet. He began his career with a wooden racquet like the Wilson Jack Kramer Pro Staff and also used a wooden Dunlop Maxply Fort before transitioning to composite racquets, such as the Dunlop Max 200G.
  • Early career: McEnroe started his professional career using a wooden racquet, including the Wilson Pro Staff.
  • Grand Slam wins: He won four major titles using a wooden racquet.
  • Last wooden racquet tournament win: He was the last man to win a Grand Slam singles title with a wooden racquet, using the Dunlop Maxply Fort to win the 1981 U.S. Open.
  • Transition to composite: He switched to composite (graphite) racquets in the early 1980s, with the Dunlop Max 200G being a famous one he used later in his career. "
 
Does the name 'Navratilova' ring any bells? She won the most WTA tour finals all on indoor carpet at 8, reached the most finals (14) Won the most matches (60) She won the double crown (both singles and doubles) an incredible 5 times when I can't see any other woman who has won them both more than once (Hingis & Novatna) She collected some other hardware along the way. 82 indoor carpet titles from March of 1975 beating Goolagong in Boston - Nov of 1993 beating Garrison in Oakland !

As buscemi pointed out Angela Mortimer has the highest indoor percentage at 93% but it probably includes a chunk of indoor wood tournaments.

I will quote from that thread of buscemi's
Court: 89.6%
Navratilova: 87.9%
Graf: 87.5%
McEnroe: 84%
Evert: 83.4%
Lendl: 83.1%
Jones: 82.5%
Borg: 80.4%
Becker: 79.4%
 
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Dan Lobb said:
McEnroe had to struggle with those old wood contraptions.

Here is AI analysis,

"John McEnroe played with wood racquets, notably winning four Grand Slam titles with them and being the last player to win a major tournament with a wooden racquet. He began his career with a wooden racquet like the Wilson Jack Kramer Pro Staff and also used a wooden Dunlop Maxply Fort before transitioning to composite racquets, such as the Dunlop Max 200G.
  • Early career: McEnroe started his professional career using a wooden racquet, including the Wilson Pro Staff.
  • Grand Slam wins: He won four major titles using a wooden racquet.
  • Last wooden racquet tournament win: He was the last man to win a Grand Slam singles title with a wooden racquet, using the Dunlop Maxply Fort to win the 1981 U.S. Open.
  • Transition to composite: He switched to composite (graphite) racquets in the early 1980s, with the Dunlop Max 200G being a famous one he used later in his career. "
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I dont give a damn about IA analysis. I have my eye test and decades of watched tennis.
 
Examples of YEC title runs in which players beat the other 4 members of the top 5, or 4 top 5 players full stop, en-route (I could well have forgotten / missed some others):

Borg in 1979 (January 1980):
Wednesday - beats the world no. 5 Tanner 6-3 6-3
Thursday - beats the world no. 2 Connors 3-6 6-3 7-6
Friday - beats the world no. 9 Higueras 6-2 6-0
Saturday - beats the world no. 3 McEnroe 6-7 6-3 7-6
Sunday - beats the world no. 4 Gerulaitis 6-2 6-2

Lendl in 1986:
Thursday - beats the world no. 10 Gomez 6-3 7-5
Friday - beats the world no. 4 Edberg 6-3 6-4 (facing 0 break points)
Saturday - beats the world no. 5 Noah 6-4 6-4 (facing 0 break points)
Sunday - beats the world no. 3 Wilander 6-4 6-2 (facing 0 break points)
Monday - beats the world no. 2 Becker 6-4 6-4 6-4 (facing 0 break points)

Federer in 2010:
Sunday - beats the world no. 7 Ferrer 6-1 6-4
Tuesday - beats the world no. 4 Murray 6-4 6-2
Thursday - beats the world no. 5 Soderling 7-6 6-3
Saturday - beats the world no. 3 Djokovic 6-1 6-4
Sunday - beats the world no. 1 Nadal 6-3 3-6 6-1

Murray in 2016:
Monday - beats the world no. 7 Cilic 6-3 6-2
Wednesday - beats the world no. 5 Nishikori 6-7 6-4 6-4
Friday - beats the world no. 3 Wawrinka 6-4 6-2
Saturday - beats the world no. 4 Raonic 5-7 7-6 7-6
Sunday - beats the world no. 2 Djokovic 6-3 6-4

Now I'm not necassarily saying that they were the 4 most impressive YEC titles in history. Lendl's in 1986 for example, beating the other 4 members of the top 5, in consecutive days, without being taken to 5-5 in any set and without facing a single break point, would IMO definitely rank among the very best though.

Clearly there are always caveats at play, such as the tournament not having a RR format from 1982-1985, examples of players already through to the semis 'taking it easy' during their final RR matches, (other) members of the top 5 not necessarily being the most difficult opponents to face at that point in time / on that surface etc.

And there were numerous other hugely impressive YEC title runs as well, including by Borg (in 1980), Lendl (in 1982 for example) and Federer (in 2003 for example) themselves.
 
Holmes said:
You'd probably have to give it to him, just over Lendl, Rodger, PETE and Boris
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Even with a wood racquet?

Actually, there is no such surface as "indoor". Indoor surfaces have been various, including a very fast wood, a canvas or "carpet", hard rubber, slow rubber...we need to specify the surface, which makes a huge difference.
 
I have McEnroe as the greatest, but Rosewall also has a great case. I'm not a huge historian of tennis, but I think that these were the three biggest indoor events Rosewall played:

WCT Finals: Rosewall won in '71 and '72, both over Laver, with the '72 final often considered the greatest match of all time. In '73, at age 38, he lost a five set SF to Ashe.​
​
French Pro Championships: This was mostly held on clay, but it was on indoor wood for a five year stretch from '63-'67. Rosewall beat Laver in 4 straight finals from '63-'66 before losing to Gimeno in the SF in '67.​
​
Wembley: This was held on indoor wood until '67 and then on indoor carpet. Rosewall won it 6/13 times he played, in '57 (over Segura), from '60-'63 (over Segura and then 3 times over Hoad), and '68 (over Newcombe on carpet).​

Overall, that's 2/3 at the WCT Finals, 4/5 at the French Pro Championships, and 6/13 at Wembley, so 12/21 (57.14%) at the three biggest indoor events he played.
 
insideoutforehanders said:
So do you put him 6th or higher than that?

H2H alone is not a great barometer for ranking though IMO and the examples of that I could use are countless. Even moreso in the case of Lendl and Borg who are hardly real contemporaries. If I put Borg above Mcenroe and/or Lend on carpet it would not be because of an individual H2H mainly.
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Likely at 6 yes. As impressive as his runs are, “only” two YECs is a little to few to take him higher esievialky as, despite H2H I don’t see his highest level on par with Sampras or Becker. If he was in their league here one could argue. That being said, I like to separate indoor hard and carpet here. On carpet, Borg is 5th as Federer is out here. Indoor hard is a little different here as the former greats rarely played it. Here Fed/Djoko are at the top.
 
abmk said:
disagree about Borg being top 5. All 5 of Mac, Lendl, Becker, Sampras, Fed are better indoors.
Anyone who has watched Becker indoors in 96 - I doubt they would put Borg ahead. Even Borg fans wouldn't.
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Becker is more accomplished due to a longer career and that is fair. But i disagree about having a better prime. Borg dominated every great indoor player of his era.
 
buscemi said:
Is that true?

I have him as 5-4 against McEnroe and 1-1 against Lendl indoors.

Those are nice numbers, but far from domination.
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Carpet it’s 5-3 and 1-0. Also he still straight setted Lendl in Sydney 1982 with 6-1, 6-4, 6-2. Was Lendl’s only loss indoors that year.
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
Likely at 6 yes. As impressive as his runs are, “only” two YECs is a little to few to take him higher esievialky as, despite H2H I don’t see his highest level on par with Sampras or Becker. If he was in their league here one could argue. That being said, I like to separate indoor hard and carpet here. On carpet, Borg is 5th as Federer is out here. Indoor hard is a little different here as the former greats rarely played it. Here Fed/Djoko are at the top.
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I agree completely carpet and indoor hard should be separate. And Federer can't be on any all time carpet list, through no fault of his own, as he barely got to play on it.
 
buscemi said:
Right, which gets to your point about distinguishing indoor hard from indoor carpet. And then there's wood as well if we're considering Rosewall. Or we just compare everyone on how they did indoors overall.
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The only one who was more or less successful on both is Pete who won 3 YECs on carpet and 2 on indoor hard (assuming 99 was in hard I never got a definite answer on it).
 
buscemi said:
Is that true?

I have him as 5-4 against McEnroe and 1-1 against Lendl indoors.

Those are nice numbers, but far from domination.
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I don't mean domination as he destroyed everyone of those. I meant in the way the has a positive h2h against all of them.

And yes most people mean indoors hard courts by indoors. But Borg was a complete beast on carpet courts which were played in such conditions as well.
 
buscemi said:
But he was 1-1 against Lendl, probably the second best indoor player he played behind McEnroe, which is .500, not a winning record.
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On carpet courts, Borg was 5-3 vs McEnroe and 5-2 vs Connors, which are both 2 of the best players ever on the surface.

Lendl barely won their only indoor HC meeting, but got soundly beaten the only time they played on carpets in straights. Lendl was certainly a monster on there given that he also has very good h2h records against many others strong carpet courters.

Borg also leads Nastase indoors, who is very underrated in those conditions
 
BorgTheGOAT said:
Carpet it’s 5-3 and 1-0. Also he still straight setted Lendl in Sydney 1982 with 6-1, 6-4, 6-2. Was Lendl’s only loss indoors that year.
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Just out of curiosity was that Sydney match an exhibition match or an official tournament match? Not that I am saying an exhibition match (exos were big in those days) wouldn't be nearly as meaningful or of value, I am only wondering since I know Borg's actual official tour play that year was limited. Was that one of the few entries he had?
 
The Lendl vs Borg rivalry in general is one of the ones we missed out on seeing more of with Borg's earlier retirement. Even then it probably would not have never been ideal ideal, as Lendl was not truly coming into his prime and full mental maturity until 85, and to a degree in 84, which is the point Borg would probably have began declining most likely (if not earlier), but it still would have been interesting to see many more matches between them with both ranked in the top 3 or 4 presumably.
 
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