Is Murray the greatest British sportsman ?

Is he even greatest tennis player ever? IMO Fred Perry has some say in this matter...

8 GS (including career GS, first player ever to do it) , 2 Pro GS, 55 titles. Also his prime was cut by war.

For me Perry is ahead.
 

BGod

Hall of Fame
Is he even greatest tennis player ever? IMO Fred Perry has some say in this matter...

8 GS (including career GS, first player ever to do it) , 2 Pro GS, 55 titles. Also his prime was cut by war.

For me Perry is ahead.
Historical legacy, of course Perry is ahead. But in modern era with all the media we have, Murray has commanded the British sports world pretty damn well. His two Olympic Golds and Davis Cup add to that.
 

Azure

Hall of Fame
My ignorance about the subject is sublime.
I shall add to the ignorance. Cricket uses terms such as 'Nelson', 'silly mid off', 'dibbly dobbly', 'night Watchman', 'googly' etc. The best form of cricket have matches played over 5 days. At one point in history they were even played over 7 days...most of the time it ends in a draw.

Bernard Shaw once said 'Cricket is played by 11 fools and watched by 11000'.
 
I shall add to the ignorance. Cricket uses terms such as 'Nelson', 'silly mid off', 'dibbly dobbly', 'night Watchman', 'googly' etc. The best form of cricket have matches played over 5 days. At one point in history they were even played over 7 days...most of the time it ends in a draw.

Bernard Shaw once said 'Cricket is played by 11 fools and watched by 11000'.
Interesting. Though I may never watch a match either live or in TV, living where I live.
 

Mustard

Talk Tennis Guru
The closest to Taylor's kind of dominance, within tennis, is Nadal on clay, because of just how dominant he's been and the longevity of it.
 
Murray is certainly a contender for greatest ever. Alongside Lennox Lewis, Fred Perry and Mo Farah. Like them, he won major titles and became number 1 in his sport.

Lewis Hamilton is a cog in a machine. A no more significant feature of victory in his "sport" than a jockey on a horse, so you'd have to include Lester Pigott if you include him.

The suggestion that Ronnie O'Sullivan or Phil Taylor -people who play minority participation pub games- can even be called 'sportsman' at all is risible. One may as well include the world tiddly-winks champion.
 
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BGod

Hall of Fame
Born in England to Jamaican parents moved to Canada aged 12.
And I wasn't born in Canada either but guess what my citizenship says? I actually have dual like Lennox but then I didn't play Olympics under the Canadian Leaf.

Lennox is as much British as Brett Hull is Canadian. He "switched" back to the British label because of marketing. Both his parents were Jamaican and he's lived in US for over two decade and has citizenship there now too.

He ain't British.
 
That's Phil Taylor right at the end of his career in that picture.

I say Phil Taylor is the greatest because of how dominant he was at a professional sport, combined with a ruthless winning mentality that sought to not just beat but wipe out the opposition. This winning mentality was learned under the tutelage of his mentor, Eric Bristow, who himself was one of the greatest of all time, but Taylor had an old school hard work ethic instilled into him by his parents before he had even met Bristow. What Bristow later added to Taylor's mentality was that only first was acceptable, and anything less was failure. Let's face it, Murray is certainly behind Federer, Nadal and Djokovic all-time, and by a distance. In the Bristow school, this is failure in terms of being the best of the era.

Taylor won 16 World Championships and 16 World Matchplays during his career. The next most is 5 World Championships (Bristow and Barneveld) and 2 World Matchplays (Van Gerwen and Harrington).
Your mistake is thinking that a pub game is a sport
 
That's Phil Taylor right at the end of his career in that picture.

I say Phil Taylor is the greatest because of how dominant he was at a professional sport, combined with a ruthless winning mentality that sought to not just beat but wipe out the opposition. This winning mentality was learned under the tutelage of his mentor, Eric Bristow, who himself was one of the greatest of all time, but Taylor had an old school hard work ethic instilled into him by his parents before he had even met Bristow. What Bristow later added to Taylor's mentality was that only first was acceptable, and anything less was failure. Let's face it, Murray is certainly behind Federer, Nadal and Djokovic all-time, and by a distance. In the Bristow school, this is failure in terms of being the best of the era.

Taylor won 16 World Championships and 16 World Matchplays during his career. The next most is 5 World Championships (Bristow and Barneveld) and 2 World Matchplays (Van Gerwen and Harrington).
Taylor definitely is great and the greatest ever in darts but don't forget darts is only played at a high level in GB/ireland and maybe the Netherlands. It can't be compared with an international sport like soccer, tennis or track and field which are all played at a high level on all continents (except tennis in Africa).
 
Lennox Lewis might be as British as Hans Gruber, but he has the sheets, the passports, the documents. That makes him British.

I would have to put him as my number 1. Murray, O'Sullivan and co are obviously in the big deep conversation. But Lennox just has to be the guy. I can't even convince myself that somebody else might be number 1.

Love the final fight. The entrance music. Just the way he looks as he is walking out. Magic.


@-NN- I'm, sure you know a thing or 2 about angry people that say Vitali really won and Lewis ducked the rematch. Oh, salty.
 
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A lot of debate in British media over whether Andy Murray is Britain's greatest sportsman... If not him, who do you think deserves that title?
Has to be, surely? Based on achievement alone, in a high profile sport, in one of said sports toughest ever eras?
We’ve had some decent footballers I suppose and a few good athletes, but in terms of global sport no one else really comes close. Especially if you think driving fast cars around a track doesn’t really count (it doesn’t!)
 
Chris Hoy is the most successful British Olympian I believe, even ahead of Redgrave, Farah etc.
And cycling sure as hell is a beast of a tough sport.
 
Jackie Stewart. 3 time world champion but more than that did so much for motorsport safety. His efforts has saved countless lives over the decades.
 
And I wasn't born in Canada either but guess what my citizenship says? I actually have dual like Lennox but then I didn't play Olympics under the Canadian Leaf.

Lennox is as much British as Brett Hull is Canadian. He "switched" back to the British label because of marketing. Both his parents were Jamaican and he's lived in US for over two decade and has citizenship there now too.

He ain't British.
You’re right. He’s British-Canadian with Jamaican heritage.
 
Murray?! Really? (A teriible case of present-bias.)

One of Britain's many great soccer players, or rugby players, or cricket players, or billiards players, or darts players.

 
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You’re right. He’s British-Canadian with Jamaican heritage.
AJ still looks really stiff. Lewis was flying around there like Sugar Ray Leonard. Gotta love those exaggerations that are not quite hyperbole, brother. haha I don't see the hypothetical ending well for Joshua. Of course, there is still a universe I can see him winning since Lewis was defeated twice. Joshua has the power I would be expecting Lewis to be on his game against such a threat.

I wonder where Joshua will end up.
 

BGod

Hall of Fame
Lennox is not a Brit. He's a Canadian turned American who used his birth certificate to generate more money under the Union Jack. Can't claim him as a British Sportsman when he captured Olympic Gold for Canada and lived and trained in America. Get Out.

Love the final fight.


@-NN- I'm, sure you know a thing or 2 about angry people that say Vitali really won and Lewis ducked the rematch. Oh, salty.
Vitali suffered a bad cut that saved Lennox from getting KO'd and he knew he got lucky so retired on top. Smart decision.

I take Vitali over Lewis. Never knocked down and a vicious power puncher.
 
Lennox is not a Brit. He's a Canadian turned American who used his birth certificate to generate more money under the Union Jack. Can't claim him as a British Sportsman when he captured Olympic Gold for Canada and lived and trained in America. Get Out.



Vitali suffered a bad cut that saved Lennox from getting KO'd and he knew he got lucky so retired on top. Smart decision.

I take Vitali over Lewis. Never knocked down and a vicious power puncher.
I take Lewis over Vitali. TKO 6. A more barbaric rule set might have seen Vitali's eye come right out of his head. He was saved that night.
 
Lennox is not a Brit. He's a Canadian turned American who used his birth certificate to generate more money under the Union Jack. Can't claim him as a British Sportsman when he captured Olympic Gold for Canada and lived and trained in America. Get Out.



Vitali suffered a bad cut that saved Lennox from getting KO'd and he knew he got lucky so retired on top. Smart decision.

I take Vitali over Lewis. Never knocked down and a vicious power puncher.
He was born in Britain and spent the first 12 years of his life there. He has as much claim as being British as he does Canadian.
 
Murray?! Really? (A teriible case of present-bias.)

One of Britain's many great soccer players, or rugby players, or cricket players, or billiards players, or darts players.

Taylor (darts) and O’sullivan (snooker) are surely disbarred; they’re both great, but we all know they’re pub games that became entertainment. Rugby and football are team sports, Murray carried British tennis squarely on his own shoulders, against 3 all time greats, reached number 1, twice Olympic singles gold, dragged us to Davis Cup success (and seriously, Britain was a laughing stock in that thing for decades.) I really can’t think of a rugby player or footballer who did any more for Britain.
 
Lennox Lewis might be as British as Hans Gruber, but he has the sheets, the passports, the documents. That makes him British.

I would have to put him as my number 1. Murray, O'Sullivan and co are obviously in the big deep conversation. But Lennox just has to be the guy. I can't even convince myself that somebody else might be number 1.

Love the final fight. The entrance music. Just the way he looks as he is walking out. Magic.


@-NN- I'm, sure you know a thing or 2 about angry people that say Vitali really won and Lewis ducked the rematch. Oh, salty.
That was a amazing fight. Lewis fortunate for the cut and was 4-2 behind and did prpbably want no part of the rematch but he was past his best and out of shape and unmotivated. But his punching power combined with cllisons made it happen.
Vitali had 60 sitches after the fight and lost sight for a while for ages so it was a great stoppage.
 

ibbi

Hall of Fame
Ever? Okay, this is getting to Diana Spencer levels of stupidity now. No, he's not Britain's greatest EVER sportsman. He might make the top 10.

Today? Maybe... Hamilton and Farah would both give him a run for his money. Cook just retired, but he'd be up there too. I know the issue people have with Hamilton, but I'll throw O'Sullivan in there, even Higgins too.
 
Lennox is not a Brit. He's a Canadian turned American who used his birth certificate to generate more money under the Union Jack. Can't claim him as a British Sportsman when he captured Olympic Gold for Canada and lived and trained in America. Get Out.



Vitali suffered a bad cut that saved Lennox from getting KO'd and he knew he got lucky so retired on top. Smart decision.

I take Vitali over Lewis. Never knocked down and a vicious power puncher.
That’s a myth the momentum had already switched. Lennox completely destroyed Vitali in the last two rounds. Vitali was ahead in the score cards since he won the first four rounds however in round five and six Lennox beat him up badly. I am sure he would have knocked him out sooner or later. Might add, that Lewis was 37 and heavier than in any other of his fights. He only trained for weeks for Vitaly as another opponent was planned initially who got injured and was replaced by klitschko. Vitaly put up a great fight but Lewis underestimated him and prime for prime this shouldn’t even be close.
 
That’s a myth the momentum had already switched. Lennox completely destroyed Vitali in the last two rounds. Vitali was ahead in the score cards since he won the first four rounds however in round five and six Lennox beat him up badly. I am sure he would have knocked him out sooner or later. Might add, that Lewis was 37 and heavier than in any other of his fights. He only trained for weeks for Vitaly as another opponent was planned initially who got injured and was replaced by klitschko. Vitaly put up a great fight but Lewis underestimated him and prime for prime this shouldn’t even be close.
As for the question, Murray of course isn’t the greatest. Bobby Charlton and Lewis are ahead and so is George Best.
 
Taylor (darts) and O’sullivan (snooker) are surely disbarred; they’re both great, but we all know they’re pub games that became entertainment. Rugby and football are team sports,
Here's an non sequitur: if golf is a sport, then so are snooker and darts. To paraphrase Mark Twain, golf "is a good walk ruined" that became a distraction for old white men in their retirement leisure.

Being a game (originating in pubs or not) and being entertaining does not disqualify darts, snooker, or . . . tennis for that matter.
(Modern tennis originated as a weekend leisurely pastime for the upper class in England. You cannot blame a modern sport for where it orginated. If you do, then you could disqulify everything.)

Rugby, football, basketball, baseball, (American) football are all team sports. If one disqualifies members of teams, then one rules out all of these. No Maradona, no Pele, no Messi, no Babe Ruth, no Mickey Mantle, no Michael Jordan, no Lebron, no Kareem, no Johnny Unitas, no Joe Montana, no Jim Brown.

Murray carried British tennis squarely on his own shoulders, against 3 all time greats, reached number 1, twice Olympic singles gold, dragged us to Davis Cup success (and seriously, Britain was a laughing stock in that thing for decades.) I really can’t think of a rugby player or footballer who did any more for Britain.
Unforunately, if one says that Murray is the "greatest British Sportsman" and this is true, then this may say more about the quality of British sports than it says about Murray.
 
Lennox Lewis might be as British as Hans Gruber, but he has the sheets, the passports, the documents. That makes him British.

I would have to put him as my number 1. Murray, O'Sullivan and co are obviously in the big deep conversation. But Lennox just has to be the guy. I can't even convince myself that somebody else might be number 1.

Love the final fight. The entrance music. Just the way he looks as he is walking out. Magic.


@-NN- I'm, sure you know a thing or 2 about angry people that say Vitali really won and Lewis ducked the rematch. Oh, salty.

It's one of my favourite ever fights and has great replay value. It's one of the great "what if" rematches. I'd have favoured Lennox prime for prime, and given him a marginal edge in a rematch even at his advanced age assuming he'd be motivated to actually be ready. And I guess that's why he retired... he wasn't motivated and enough was enough. But also, Vitali had fired a huge warning shot for the future of the heavyweight division and Lennox surely knew he could lose the rematch, and with him hardly being arsed already to be dedicated to the sport, it was time to hang 'em up. I think Vitali is the more natural fighter than his brother Wlad, but Wlad of course has the greater legacy.

The uppercut Lennox landed in round 6 is a pretty famous shot in heavyweight history (as you know) despite there being no knockdown...


Love that strike...


If Vitali's face wasn't sliced in half who would have won? Lennox had poor conditioning and would have needed to finish the job.


And I think he would have.

Also, I believe it was a punch that caused the cut.
 
Here's an non sequitur: if golf is a sport, then so are snooker and darts. To paraphrase Mark Twain, golf "is a good walk ruined" that became a distraction for old white men in their retirement leisure.

Being a game (originating in pubs or not) and being entertaining does not disqualify darts, snooker, or . . . tennis for that matter.
(Modern tennis originated as a weekend leisurely pastime for the upper class in England. You cannot blame a modern sport for where it orginated. If you do, then you could disqulify everything.)

Rugby, football, basketball, baseball, (American) football are all team sports. If one disqualifies members of teams, then one rules out all of these. No Maradona, no Pele, no Messi, no Babe Ruth, no Mickey Mantle, no Michael Jordan, no Lebron, no Kareem, no Johnny Unitas, no Joe Montana, no Jim Brown.


Unforunately, if one says that Murray is the "greatest British Sportsman" and this is true, then this may say more about the quality of British sports than it says about Murray.
Some good points, but I don’t fully agree with any of them.

1. I can’t stand golf, so you’re talking to the wrong guy here. Happy to disqualify it as a sport!
2. There is still a huge difference between tennis and the pub games. By way of example, only British Islanders and Chinese seem to actually play snooker professionally to any real standard so being great in that sport doesn’t really mean much.
3. The list of names you’ve given actually prove my point. Had one of them been British, Murray might have some competition. Take football. We’ve had some decent footballers, but not a Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona. No one that good. I think Murray is a more than decent tennis player.
4. Finally, the debate is exactly about Britain’s greatest sportsman. The bar might not be that high, that’s ok, we’re a northern hemisphere island. I still think all things considered, Murray is well in the running to be our finest sportsman. He’s beaten the best in his sport, multiple times and reached the top.

I’m still waiting for someone to name a British sportsman better than Murray. They may be out there, but I can’t think of one.
 
Ever? Okay, this is getting to Diana Spencer levels of stupidity now. No, he's not Britain's greatest EVER sportsman. He might make the top 10.

Today? Maybe... Hamilton and Farah would both give him a run for his money. Cook just retired, but he'd be up there too. I know the issue people have with Hamilton, but I'll throw O'Sullivan in there, even Higgins too.
Cook??? I love cricket, and Cook (fully deserves his knighthood), but it’s only us and the former colonies that really play the game. Same reason I wouldn’t put Beefy above Murray.

Farah is a good call, but that’s another problem, we only really care what he does every 4 years don’t we? His sport is only really visible at the Olympics and it’s not blue riband like Bolt in the 100 metres.

O’Sullivan is a great snooker player but surely no one can argue that he’s achieved a single thing as massive as winning Wimbledon, Olympic gold or the US Open in tennis? Surely?

Who do you think is the greatest ever Brit sportsman?
 
Some good points, but I don’t fully agree with any of them.

1. I can’t stand golf, so you’re talking to the wrong guy here. Happy to disqualify it as a sport!
2. There is still a huge difference between tennis and the pub games. By way of example, only British Islanders and Chinese seem to actually play snooker professionally to any real standard so being great in that sport doesn’t really mean much.
3. The list of names you’ve given actually prove my point. Had one of them been British, Murray might have some competition. Take football. We’ve had some decent footballers, but not a Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona. No one that good. I think Murray is a more than decent tennis player.
4. Finally, the debate is exactly about Britain’s greatest sportsman. The bar might not be that high, that’s ok, we’re a northern hemisphere island. I still think all things considered, Murray is well in the running to be our finest sportsman. He’s beaten the best in his sport, multiple times and reached the top.

I’m still waiting for someone to name a British sportsman better than Murray. They may be out there, but I can’t think of one.
You seem reasonable and equanimous. Not being British, I concede the home ground to you. :)
 
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ibbi

Hall of Fame
Cook??? I love cricket, and Cook (fully deserves his knighthood), but it’s only us and the former colonies that really play the game. Same reason I wouldn’t put Beefy above Murray.

Farah is a good call, but that’s another problem, we only really care what he does every 4 years don’t we? His sport is only really visible at the Olympics and it’s not blue riband like Bolt in the 100 metres.

O’Sullivan is a great snooker player but surely no one can argue that he’s achieved a single thing as massive as winning Wimbledon, Olympic gold or the US Open in tennis? Surely?

Who do you think is the greatest ever Brit sportsman?
I don't know that there is one guy I'd pick outright, but as a tennis fan I'm partial to Fred Perry. Ronnie (and Hendry before him) are the two greatest snooker players that ever lived with a stupid long list of records. Daley Thompson's got to be up there, Coe, Lennox Lewis, Redgrave, and the long list of cricketers I'd never discount because those former colonies are all pretty gosh darn good! I also hate Lewis Hamilton with a passion, but it pains me to say he's up there too. That's not even getting into all the footballers.

Murray has been revolutionary for British sport, but seeing how he climbed from boy who could barely make it through a 5 set match, to one of the strongest players on tour, ender of generations long droughts in the Davis Cup and at Wimbledon makes me wonder why he couldn't climb higher still? It's not physical, it's mental. He was made to look ordinary by not 1, not 2, but 3 of his peers, and I'm not sure you should be able to say that about the greatest of all time.
 

Mainad

Bionic Poster
I don't know that there is one guy I'd pick outright, but as a tennis fan I'm partial to Fred Perry. Ronnie (and Hendry before him) are the two greatest snooker players that ever lived with a stupid long list of records. Daley Thompson's got to be up there, Coe, Lennox Lewis, Redgrave, and the long list of cricketers I'd never discount because those former colonies are all pretty gosh darn good! I also hate Lewis Hamilton with a passion, but it pains me to say he's up there too. That's not even getting into all the footballers.

Murray has been revolutionary for British sport, but seeing how he climbed from boy who could barely make it through a 5 set match, to one of the strongest players on tour, ender of generations long droughts in the Davis Cup and at Wimbledon makes me wonder why he couldn't climb higher still? It's not physical, it's mental. He was made to look ordinary by not 1, not 2, but 3 of his peers, and I'm not sure you should be able to say that about the greatest of all time.
But he won big titles against all 3 of them so he wan't always made to look 'ordinary' by them.
 
Best is great, but not British. And I don’t agree with you on the other two.
If we consider Lewis a Brit than surely he is greater than Murray. He was on top of his sport for several years and can be mentioned in GOAT debates without a problem, two things Murray does not have. Boxing is not a joke sport either.
 
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