Is Nadal’s game more suited for grass now than 2008?

[RF-18]

Like I said , you are absolutely delusional.
Nadal of AO 2009 would crush Nadal of AO 2019 for one.

As far as the 1st bold part is concerned, again, complete and utter bollocks :
older federer won 5 in a row vs him. (basel 15 to shanghai 17)
hasn't won a set vs djokovic on HC after USO 2013.
is 5-7 in 5-setters from 2015-current
was 16-5 before that.

As far as the 2nd part goes, again, again just agenda based clueless delusions.

Not interested in your nitpicking. I'm talking about Nadal as a tennis player. Since 2008, he has become a more varied player and improved his game. He is a more complete player. Too bad you disagree, but I haven't heard one expert say Nadal hasn't improved.

 

[abmk]

Not interested in your nitpicking. I'm talking about Nadal as a tennis player. Since 10 years back, he has become a more varied player and improved his game. He is a more complete player. Too bad you disagree, but I haven't heard one expert say Nadal hasn't improved.

sorry, not interested in letting your BS slide.
5-set record is not nitpicking.
If Nadal had been getting better, he sure as hell would've gotten a damn set from Djokovic on HC.
yes, I'm also talking about Nadal as a tennis player, not a poker player.
You are just shamelessly agenda driven and clueless. Just ending up making a mockery of yourself.

 

[EasyGoing]

Not interested in your nitpicking. I'm talking about Nadal as a tennis player. Since 2008, he has become a more varied player and improved his game. He is a more complete player. Too bad you disagree, but I haven't heard one expert say Nadal hasn't improved.

Less than a week ago from Tio Toni:
"I do not think he is stronger than the past. Against Roger Federer in 2008 the level was higher than today. In 2010 he was equally strong.”

Is that one expert?

 

[RF-18]

sorry, not interested in letting your BS slide.
5-set record is not nitpicking.
If Nadal had been getting better, he sure as hell would've gotten a damn set from Djokovic on HC.
yes, I'm also talking about Nadal as a tennis player, not a poker player.
You are just shamelessly agenda driven and clueless. Just ending up making a mockery of yourself.

I simply don't believe a player who plays for another decade at elite level where the sport just gets tougher and tougher and trains everyday can regress in tennis ability. You also have more knowledge about yourself and the game and new things that come along. Movement can regress yes, wich in nadals case is true, but I'm not talking about movement. But pure tennis ability and skillset. Nadal has clearly more "stuff" in his backpack than 10 years ago. In that sense Nadal is definitely a more experienced, varied and completer tennis player. You won't convince me with something else.

 

[NicoMK]

It's not Nadal (or anyone else in the field) who adapted his game to grass, it's the grass which (was) adapted to Nadal and Co's.

I'm not sure any current top player would have a chance on 1990s grass, I mean "real grass". I watched some highlights of Federer's match at Halle and all I could see from both players was the same style of play as Roland-Garros. Pity for the game, same old story...

So well, no need for Nadal to adapt his game on grass, just minor adjustments required.

 

[abmk]

I simply don't believe a player who plays for another decade at elite level where the sport just gets tougher and tougher and trains everyday can regress in tennis ability. You also have more knowledge about yourself and the game and new things that come along. Movement can regress yes, wich in nadals case is true, but I'm not talking about movement. But pure tennis ability and skillset. Nadal has clearly more "stuff" in his backpack than 10 years ago. In that sense Nadal is definitely a more experienced, varied and completer tennis player. You won't convince me with something else.

returning also declines as you age, generally. That has happened with Nadal
nadal's groundstroke consistency has also gone down.

Nadal is more experienced, that's it. He's more prone to choking/being nervous than before.
5-set record also dipped considerably because of it.

He has to use more variety now like net play/dropshots because his main aspects have declined - movement, returning.

Jimmy Connors said ...
Experience is a great advantage. The problem is that when you get the experience, you're too damned old to do anything about it.
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/jimmy_connors_137602

that's largely true.

 

[StrongRule]

I simply don't believe a player who plays for another decade at elite level where the sport just gets tougher and tougher and trains everyday can regress in tennis ability. You also have more knowledge about yourself and the game and new things that come along. Movement can regress yes, wich in nadals case is true, but I'm not talking about movement. But pure tennis ability and skillset. Nadal has clearly more "stuff" in his backpack than 10 years ago. In that sense Nadal is definitely a more experienced, varied and completer tennis player. You won't convince me with something else.

So in your opinion Djokovic in 2017 was a better player than in 2011? 6 years of experience is a lot after all.

 

[RS]

So in your opinion Djokovic in 2017 was a better player than in 2011? 6 years of experience is a lot after all.

Djokovic wasn’t in the best of condition in 2017 so not the example to use.

 

[StrongRule]

returning also declines as you age, generally.
nadal's groundstroke consistency has also gone down.
That has happened with Nadal
Nadal is more experienced, that's it. He's more prone to choking/being nervous than before.
5-set record also dipped considerably because of it.

He has to use more variety now like net play/dropshots because his main aspects have declined - movement, returning.

Jimmy Connors said ...
Experience is a great advantage. The problem is that when you get the experience, you're too damned old to do anything about it.
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/jimmy_connors_137602

that's largely true.

Nadal's return is his most declined shot IMO. He makes Djokovic look like Sampras on serve when they play on hardcourt.

 

[StrongRule]

Djokovic wasn’t in the best of condition in 2017 so not the example to use.

Irrelevant. 6 years of experience. According to @RF-18 this is all what matters.

 

[abmk]

Nadal's return is his most declined shot IMO. He makes Djokovic look like Sampras on serve when they play on hardcourt.

that happened in AO 19 final...but don't think it happened in the instances before (after USO 2013 to 2016)
Djokovic was just plain superior off the ground and on the return.

 

[RS]

Irrelevant. 6 years of experience. According to @RF-18 this is all what matters.

But he is probably assuming healthy. Djokovic had chronic injuries and was burnt out in 2017.

 

[StrongRule]

that happened in AO 19 final...but don't think it happened in the instances before (after USO 2013 to 2016)
Djokovic was just plain superior off the ground and on the return.

Oh yes, it did. After USO 2013 they played 8 matches on hardcourt and Nadal broke him just twice (!!!) in these matches, and hardly had any more break points. Djokovic's serve is obviously very good but it's not THAT great. Much worse players than Nadal were able to break him much more times during these years.

 

[StrongRule]

But he is probably assuming healthy. Djokovic had chronic injuries and was burnt out in 2017.

Dude, it is obvious he only writes this stuff to make Djokovic's competition look better than it is. He knows very well Nadal is not better now than he was in 2008.

 

[RF-18]

So in your opinion Djokovic in 2017 was a better player than in 2011? 6 years of experience is a lot after all.

I'm not talking about specific years and outcome of results. Djokovic in 2017 as a poster said was not in his best conditions. But it's irrelevant what you are saying to what Im saying. I'm talking about Nadal purely as a tennis player overall.

 

[RS]

Dude, it is obvious he only writes this stuff to make Djokovic's competition look better than it is. He knows very well Nadal is not better now than he was in 2008.

I was only merely responding to you point. Regardless he is not alone. A number of people think 2018 Nadal played his best stuff on grass and overall. Not that I agree with that. I think 2008 Nadal was better like most on this thread.

 

[Lew II]

Nadal was close to 5 early losses at Wimbledon 2006, 2007 and 2010.

The opponents just got better in 2012-17, especially on the serve as stats prove, exposing Nadal's main weakness: the return.

 

[abmk]

Nadal was close to 5 early losses at Wimbledon 2006, 2007 and 2010.

The opponents just got better in 2012-17, especially on the serve as stats prove, exposing Nadal's main weakness: the return.

yes that Darcis guy was so terrifying.
nadal was able to close out those matches in 06,07,10 because he was a clearly superior athlete back then and his return was better.

 

[RS]

@Lew. Nadal often starts slow at Wimbledon. He builds his form up on the later rounds. Also in 2018 before the QF he didn’t face a massive grass threat unlike in 2006-2007/2010. In other words a bomber who really trouble Nadal on grass.
Nadal faced a Prime Federer in the Wimbeldon 2006-2008 finals 3 times in a row. So it’s debatable if his competition got tougher later.
The talk is about 2008 Nadal vs 2018 Nadal anyway. I don’t think 2006 Nadal was as good as 2018 Nadal on the grass anyways.

 

[Raining hopes]

Nadal was close to 5 early losses at Wimbledon 2006, 2007 and 2010.

The opponents just got better in 2012-17, especially on the serve as stats prove, exposing Nadal's main weakness: the return.

Apparently you know more than Tony Nadal.

Less than a week ago from Tio Toni:
"I do not think he is stronger than the past. Against Roger Federer in 2008 the level was higher than today. In 2010 he was equally strong.”

Is that one expert?

And this one time when stats don't support your view you aren't bothering with them.

 

[abmk]

Oh yes, it did. After USO 2013 they played 8 matches on hardcourt and Nadal broke him just twice (!!!) in these matches, and hardly had any more break points. Djokovic's serve is obviously very good but it's not THAT great. Much worse players than Nadal were able to break him much more times during these years.

and still you don't have one specific example to point out. it was more Djokovic's ground game that did the damage in the other matches
Take out AO 2019 -- I already said Nadal returned poorly in that.
Nadal did have BP in 5/7 matches after USO 2013
http://www.tennisabstract.com/cgi-b...16qq,2015qq,2014qq,2013qqB0r1&q=NovakDjokovic

 

[StrongRule]

and still you don't have one specific example to point out. it was more Djokovic's ground game that did the damage in the other matches
Take out AO 2019 -- I already said Nadal returned poorly in that.
Nadal did have BP in 5/7 matches after USO 2013
http://www.tennisabstract.com/cgi-b...16qq,2015qq,2014qq,2013qqB0r1&q=NovakDjokovic

Having 1 or 2 BPs in a match doesn't mean you return well. Nadal should have broken him at least a few more times in so many matches, even if they were in the worst period of his career and Djokovic's best. For sure Berdych is not a better returner than Nadal, but even he did much better.

 

[abmk]

Having 1 or 2 BPs in a match doesn't mean you return well. Nadal should have broken him at least a few more times in so many matches, even if they were in the worst period of his career and Djokovic's best. For sure Berdych is not a better returner than Nadal, but even he did much better.

djokovic didn't play as well vs berdych as he did vs nadal. obviously was determined not to have a letdown vs Nadal.
I didn't say Nadal returned that well in those matches either. I said he didn't return terribly like he did in AO 2019.
there is a spectrum between returning terribly/poorly and returning well, you know.

for example : Nadal returned fairly decently in IW 17(1 BP) and Miami 17 (multiple BPs), but couldn't break Fed.
he returned poorly in Shanghai 17.

 

[StrongRule]

djokovic didn't play as well vs berdych as he did vs nadal. obviously was determined not to have a letdown vs Nadal.
I didn't say Nadal returned that well in those matches either. I said he didn't return terribly like he did in AO 2019.
there is a spectrum between returning terribly and returning well, you know.

I didn't see much of a difference. Except maybe the fact that Nadal was having the worst period of his career in 2014-2016, so nobody expected anything from him.

 

[rhoder]

Is this post a JOKE? Seriously? Do people watch tennis? To say the current Nadal is comparable to 2008 - is hilarious at best and BORDERLINE insane at worst.

Forehand: 2008 Nadal by a country mile. His off-forehand (i/o and inside-in) was deadly. Mainly because he was in position and had more explosive footwork. His DTL in 2008 was also far better - 2019 Nadal is usually late and can barely get the ball in. Plus (and more importantly) current Nadal does NOT have the same confidence in his CC forehand. During his prime, even when hitting SHORT, Nadal would hit in the corners. The top spin would then yank his opponent sideways. Now, he puts the ball in the middle of the court and it stands up begging to be hit.

Backhand: Can't even emphasize how much the FLAT DTL backhand of Nadal has gone down. 2008 Rafa had no trouble flattening it out, now he usually loops or spins it back. He also doesn't get in time early enough to hit CC backhand effectively. Push him cross court and he WILL throw a tame slice nowadays. Gets killed by Djokovic (and other top players).

Defense on the forehand: The current Nadal is laughable. All you need to do is hit deep or at an angle to his forehand. All Rafa can do is loop the ball CC. Time was when (in 2008), Nadal was faster and defended his forehand much better.

Defense on backhand: See above. Any person who can hit short CC angled forehands, gets Nadal in trouble. He barely gets to the ball and is totally out of the court. Typically only hits CC back and is super predictable. The 2008 Nadal was faster, covered the ball better and could still hit DTL/middle on the run.

Defense, explosiveness and Movement: No point in even mentioning. Even a blind man can see how much Nadal has declined in speed and defense.

Return of Serve: While Nadal's ROS has never been strong, it has reached a nadir as he has gone past his prime. His reflexes and explosiveness has gone down so much that he suffers on faster surfaces returning serve. Watch how Rafa struggled in Wimbledon from 2012. Compare that to the 2007-2010 Nadal returning on grass. Hell, even the 2017 Nadal got in trouble with Mueller because he couldn't return effectively to save his life.

Serve: 2018/2019 Nadal's serve does not even compare to the 2008-2010-2013 Nadal. The speed, placement, accuracy etc - are all significantly inferior now. This is also borne statistically.

Mental strength: Biggest difference after the movement. The current Nadal is shaky on breakpoints, has a terrible 5th set record, gets broken by everyone and their mother and starts super slow seemingly anxious. Had we not known the mental fortitude of 2008-2013 Nadal, we would never have said Nadal to be a mentally strong player.

In short, there is NOTHING that the current Nadal does better than the prime/peak Nadal. The only thing he has is MORE experience. He is slower, older and the strengths of his game (defense, mental fortitude, transition game etc) are not what they used to be. The fact that he still wins, sometime, is a reflection of the weakness in the ATP tour.

You need not be so abrasive and dismiss other’s posts as a joke. If you disagree with it, no issue but bring it up in a respectful manner. To be clear, I’m more referencing Nadal’s style of play rather than his level of play and whether it suits grass more. Even if we compare level, 2018 Wimby would be a more appropriate comparison than 2019 where he has been poor other than RG.

Forehand: I agree that his declined movement has somewhat diminished the quality of his forehands when he has had to run for it, but when he was in position last year (in particular the match against Djokovic), he blasted them full of confidence albeit as a flatter shot compared to 2008 where it possessed more topspin to yank the opponent out of the court. So yes the topspin forehand might still indeed more effective than a flatter forehand for him on grass, but I do not think it is extremely clear. Personally, I do suspect that part of the reason why the spinnier FH seemed to bring more results is because his main opposition then was Federer who at that time struggled with the spin at his BH side, instead of an opponent with a solid two hander like Djokovic who could take it early and redirect it well. It is just a sneaking suspicion but I don’t think the fact that the spinnier FH>>flatter FH is as clear as day and light.

Backhand: I thought his backhand had seen way better days than Wimby 2008 e.g AO09, USO10. No doubt he very much possessed the ability to flatten it out then, but he wasn’t using it as much or rather didn’t need to use it that much. He flattens it out a lot more in 2018 than in 2008. It was a more solid shot back in 2008, and he counterattacked with it on the run way better in 2008 compared in 2018 (where as you rightly pointed out often throws a lame slice back). As a package with his movement, his backhand was definitely better back in 2008. But as a shot by itself, it again isn’t as clear cut. It was a pretty darned threatening shot last year as well.

Defensive, movement and ROS: Agreed. Definite decline.

 

[Gary Duane]

Scary that we are 6 months away from 2020 and the big 3 will still be the top 3 in the world. None of us would have thought that possible a decade ago. Guau-sauce

I don't want to in any way ignore the accomplishments of the Big Three, but they should not be 1-3 in the world at 32, 33 and 38. I say 38 for Fed because he'll be 38 in less than a month.

The biggest question remains why these guys are dominating so completely.

 

[TennisFan3]

You need not be so abrasive and dismiss other’s posts as a joke. If you disagree with it, no issue but bring it up in a respectful manner. To be clear, I’m more referencing Nadal’s style of play rather than his level of play and whether it suits grass more. Even if we compare level, 2018 Wimby would be a more appropriate comparison than 2019 where he has been poor other than RG.
.

Apologies, I didn't mean to be abrasive and dismissive at all. Not the intention in the slightest, and i guess poor word choice late in the night. Anyway, I've edited my post, and I respect your opinion as well as other posters.

I agree with you in principal and in some specifics as well. But having watched Nadal for 15 years (for me at least) he is a significantly diminished player, from his peak/prime. This has happened with age and the inevitable decline in speed and movement. The problem for Nadal is that he is affected more than the other ATGs, simply because his game is so physical. He doesn't have the serve of Fed/Djokovic, the ROS of Djokovic and the pure aggression of Fed.

Sure, Nadal under Carlos Moya has made adjustments and tried to offset some weaknesses. However he cannot change his game fundamentally. We see the impact on faster surfaces the most where his loss of speed/explosiveness is exacerbated. His post 2011 Wimbledon performance is not all that surprising and commensurate with his decline. Even this year, he remains the MOST likely (by far) of the big 3 to be dismissed before Q4 in Wimbledon.

So no, his game is definitely NOT suited more to grass now than in 2008. The difference is like night and day. 2008 Nadal would have never even gone 5 sets with 2017 Mueller and would have beaten 2018 SF Djokovic too.

 

[MichaelNadal]

I don't want to in any way ignore the accomplishments of the Big Three, but they should not be 1-3 in the world at 32, 33 and 38. I say 38 for Fed because he'll be 38 in less than a month.

The biggest question remains why these guys are dominating so completely.

Smartphones and social media lol

 

[Gary Duane]

Smartphones and social media lol

Well, I've heard that as an answer, but that would mean a permanent decline in level of the whole field once the old guys retire.