Is Nadal now after winning the U.S Open the 2nd greatest player of the last 10 years on hard courts? I think he is. He has overall achieved more on the surface than Hewitt, Roddick, Safin, or Djokovic, even without a WTF title. Hewitt has 2 WTF titles, and 3 slam finals on hard courts, but no Australian Open title, and only 2 Masters titles on hard courts. Roddick has no WTF final either and no Australian Open final. Djokovic maybe comes closest. He has the WTF title, 1 more slam final on hard courts, many Masters titles, and a winning head to head with Nadal on hard courts. However he has no U.S Open title, was bested for Nadal for the Olympic Singles Gold, has 1 fewer regular Masters, and has lost his most important matches to Nadal on hard courts now.
Is Nadal 2nd greatest hard court player of last 10 years
- Thread starter Trillus
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Sorry I forgot Agassi as I was thinking of only Nadal or Federer generation players. I would have definitely noted him otherwise.
I still wouldnt pick Agassi if you are talking about just the last 10 years anyway though. The last 10 years (around 2000 U.S Open to today) he has won 2 Australian Opens, both with **** easy draws, even easier than Nadal's U.S Open draw this year. And overall he hasnt achieved more on hard courts than Nadal, Djokovic, or even Safin in the last 10 years on hard courts.
And Agassi lost to Nadal when they played on hard courts in 2005, and Nadal of 2005 was even further from his 2008-2010 level on hard courts than Agassi from his 2001-2003 level (which was already Agassi past his physical peak).
W
Winky
Guest
oh Trollus...
lambros
Rookie
Ha ha. Age doesn't matter on this board. What really matters is Are you a Troll?
MixieP
Hall of Fame
No, I'm not a troll because I'm good-natured.
Omega_7000
Legend
Federer was so good that he is both 1st & 2nd best!
illkhiboy
Hall of Fame
I think he has achieved more on hard courts than anyone but Federer and Agassi in the last 10 year span. Though when it comes to assessing whether he's been the best hard court player sans Agassi and Federer, I'm not so sure. I think Djokovic has more consistently been a threat on this surface than Nadal. And probably Roddick too. It's hard to assess. But if you think about it, Nadal's never really been the one to fear going into the hard court stretch. He's always been a threat to win any event obviously, because he can win on any surface against anybody. But there's always someone more dangerous than him at any given moment. Djokovic has often beaten him on hard, and so have Davydenko and others.
And to those who say Agassi hasn't achieved more than Nadal 2000 onwards, I would disagree. He won two Australian Opens, and was consistently a threat at the US Open between 2001 and 2005. Apart from the '03 loss to a hot Ferrero, he lost two matches each to both Federer and Sampras. And from the top of my head, he won Indian Wells in 2001, Miami from 2001-2003, indoor hard courts Madrid in 2002, and made the YEC final in 2000 and 2003. And of course he made two US Open finals during that stretch. And oh, he won Cincinatti in 2004. And he made the 2004 Australian Open semis too. No way Nadal's done better. Yeah he beat Agassi in Montreal but that's one match.
And to those who say Agassi hasn't achieved more than Nadal 2000 onwards, I would disagree. He won two Australian Opens, and was consistently a threat at the US Open between 2001 and 2005. Apart from the '03 loss to a hot Ferrero, he lost two matches each to both Federer and Sampras. And from the top of my head, he won Indian Wells in 2001, Miami from 2001-2003, indoor hard courts Madrid in 2002, and made the YEC final in 2000 and 2003. And of course he made two US Open finals during that stretch. And oh, he won Cincinatti in 2004. And he made the 2004 Australian Open semis too. No way Nadal's done better. Yeah he beat Agassi in Montreal but that's one match.
It is too early to consider Nadal as such. As someone else has correctly outlined, it is not only about the results, it is about the game one shows on this particular surface and the threat he supposes to the other player.
When I was seeing the matches on hard, Agassi, Safin, Davy, Joker, etc. were always the favs. Yes, on clay it was the other way round, but on hard it was like this. Even now I think that it is just an outburst of Nadal on fast surfacec that might end soon. These things happened before... Remember Safin, his worst surface - Grass. He gets to the final in Halle both singles and doubles (lost to an on fire Fed) and semis in Wimbledon, but then again he stopped playing well there...
When I was seeing the matches on hard, Agassi, Safin, Davy, Joker, etc. were always the favs. Yes, on clay it was the other way round, but on hard it was like this. Even now I think that it is just an outburst of Nadal on fast surfacec that might end soon. These things happened before... Remember Safin, his worst surface - Grass. He gets to the final in Halle both singles and doubles (lost to an on fire Fed) and semis in Wimbledon, but then again he stopped playing well there...
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Safin was way past his prime by the time he played Nadal on hard court so he certainly wasnt the favorite. It would have been a huge upset if Safin had won by the time they played in fact. Davydenko the favorite? He may have a good record vs Nadal on hard courts, but I dont think he was favored to win hardly any of the matches going in, and nobody sane would favor him over Nadal if they ever played in a hard court slam. Djokovic likewise was not favored over Nadal when he actually played Nadal where it really mattered on hard courts- in a Slam event.
Sandwichman
Rookie
If you're going the past ten years, it's probably
1.Federer
2.Agassi (two AO's, one USO final)
3.Roddick (really consistent)
4.Nadal/Djokovic (Nadal consistent at the slams, but not as much everywhere else. Djokovic is consistent everywhere, but not quite as good at the slams)
1.Federer
2.Agassi (two AO's, one USO final)
3.Roddick (really consistent)
4.Nadal/Djokovic (Nadal consistent at the slams, but not as much everywhere else. Djokovic is consistent everywhere, but not quite as good at the slams)
Actually, it's 3 AO's. 2000, 2001, and 2003
I meant beginning with Safin's 2000 U.S Open. The 2000 Australian Open was almost 11 years ago now. Although i suppose technically 10 years would exclude Safin's 2000 U.S Open too, but since he is a recent generation player, and the 2010 U.S Open just finished I figured it was fair to include that.
I am pretty sure Nadal has fewer losses before the quarters or semis of hard court events over the years than Roddick has. Djokovic is quite consistent, but he is also consistent with not winning the last 2+ years.
illkhiboy
Hall of Fame
I don't understand why you have to be sarcastic all the time. I think the OP brings up an interesting issue. Nadal has achieved more on hard courts in the last decade than anyone save Agassi/Federer. And yet everyone including Nadal himself has shown a lack of confidence in his hard court abilities. It's quite ironic and a very legitimate thread. But you have to be sarcastic to Nadal fans each chance you get. It's actually quite sickening. There's the *******s on the one hand, and then there are people like you who are always checking every poster who praises Nadal for ****ness. And all it does is induce more flame wars.
illkhiboy
Hall of Fame
Yeah Roddick's not been all that consistent. He continues to lose before the semis in the Masters. Though I think he has a good record in Miami/Cincinatti/Indian Wells. But he tends to lose early in Canada, and hasn't done too well on the indoor hard courts. Come to think about it, is Nadal a better indoor hard court player than Roddick?
namelessone
Legend
You know, I think that outside of Fed and other 90's greats(agassi,sampras) that played in this decade, Rafa is contention for the second greatest HC'er in the last 10 years which is a testament to his incredible will. He does not have a natural game for this surface yet he has 2 HC GS, 5 HC MS and a Olympic Gold. Last year, with a ****ty season, won the most HC points on tour if I am not mistaken.
Other contenders for that second spot are:
Safin, with a terrific HC game, also won 2 HC GS and 5 HC MS.
Hewitt, great HC game, won 2 HC GS, 2 HC MS and 2 TMC.
Djoker, 1 HC GS, 5 MS, 1 TMC.
Roddick, 1 HC GS, 5 MS.
Other contenders for that second spot are:
Safin, with a terrific HC game, also won 2 HC GS and 5 HC MS.
Hewitt, great HC game, won 2 HC GS, 2 HC MS and 2 TMC.
Djoker, 1 HC GS, 5 MS, 1 TMC.
Roddick, 1 HC GS, 5 MS.
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Blake_for_GOAT
Banned
Hard to deny that Safin isn't the 2nd best up until now, seeing as he has 2 runners up to his name on hard courts and we never really had the chance to see what he could do providing his career wasn't so injury plagued. IMO.......................
2) Safin
3) Hewitt
4) Nadal
5) Roddick
6) Djokovic
Safin's and Hewitt's GS record on hard courts surpass Nadal's. However if Nadal won another slam he would do a 180 on both of them. The reason I place Safin over Hewitt is because Hewitt's 2001 draw wasn't that strong, and he never beat Federer in years 04-07....plus Safin has 1 more runner up to his name.
2) Safin
3) Hewitt
4) Nadal
5) Roddick
6) Djokovic
Safin's and Hewitt's GS record on hard courts surpass Nadal's. However if Nadal won another slam he would do a 180 on both of them. The reason I place Safin over Hewitt is because Hewitt's 2001 draw wasn't that strong, and he never beat Federer in years 04-07....plus Safin has 1 more runner up to his name.
illkhiboy
Hall of Fame
Hewitt won a single hard court Slam. He was a runner up once at the Australian and once at the US Open. He also has a string of semi finals and quarters at the US.
Blake_for_GOAT
Banned
On second thoughts, I place Nadal over Hewitt.
Well, remember how the last year ended. Davydenko in the last Master series and in the Masters cup hs beaten the numbers 1,2,3, and in many other ocassions he has shown some really great tennis, so I do believe he is more of a favourite on hard surfaces.
jack_kramer
Banned
TheLoneWolf
Banned
I think the main reason why Nadal's hardcourt abilities have been so underestimated is that he is just so good on clay. Also, that Federer was so good on hardcourt. A little like Fed's abilities on clay were underestimated as well.
MichaelNadal
Bionic Poster
It's pretty ridiculous. The results speak for themselves.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
I can't see how Hewitt could be ranked above Nadal when he won only 1 hard court slam and 2 masters on hard.
Safin actually won only 2 masters on hard (and only 1 on outdoor hard). Paris indoor (he won 3 of them) was listed as carpet at that time.
I think Nadal is the second best player on outdoor hard (after Fed) only of the decade though (I don't think he's better than Agassi so far).
I would make a distinction between outdoor hard and indoor hard. For instance Safin and Djokovic are good on both outdoor and indoor hard (same as Fed). So far, Rafa has been a great outdoor hard player only (just 1 title indoor and no WTF) while his record on outdoor hard at 24 is fabulous: 4 master titles + another master title in doubles, Olympics + 2 slams. It beats any other active player than Fed by a landslide if you consider "outdoor hard". It's on indoor hard that Rafa's been lacking.
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Blake_for_GOAT
Banned
Read my second post. I actually corrected myself. However I think Safin is the second best hard courter overall. I actually prefer Nadal to Safin also.
TheLoneWolf
Banned
Yes, I know. It's just the contrast between clay/grass and hardcourt. And much of that is due to injuries due to the hardcourt season being towards the end of the year. By that time (except this year, and I hope this is just the beginning of a trend,) Nadal is too fatigued and/or suffering the effects of the season in his tendons.
10ACE
Professional
Why not look up players in the last 10 years hardcourt cumulative wins to get this answer? The answer is Federer for 2nd by a landslide
Hard Court wins / losses / titles
Andre Agassi 598 / 159 / 45
Roger Federer 425 / 93 / 41
Andy Roddick 376 / 110 / 19 (exactly 10 year record)
Lleyton Hewitt 326 / 117 / 19
Raphael Nadal 217 / 69 / 10
Marat Safin 217 / 140 / 10
Novak Djokovic 185 / 55 / 13
Hard Court wins / losses / titles
Andre Agassi 598 / 159 / 45
Roger Federer 425 / 93 / 41
Andy Roddick 376 / 110 / 19 (exactly 10 year record)
Lleyton Hewitt 326 / 117 / 19
Raphael Nadal 217 / 69 / 10
Marat Safin 217 / 140 / 10
Novak Djokovic 185 / 55 / 13
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veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Hewitt dominated the minor leagues on outdoor hard: 11 of Hewitt's titles were 250. (Only 3 in tier 1 events).
This is my ranking for outdoor hard based on # of tier 1 events won:
1- Federer (22)
2- Agassi (20)
3- Sampras (15)
4- Nadal (7)
5- Roddick (6)
6- Djokovic (4)
7- Safin/Hewitt (3)
(I didn't include players who have fewer than 3 big titles or who have never won a slam on hard. All the players listed have won at least 1 slam on hard since 2000.)
This is my ranking for outdoor hard based on # of tier 1 events won:
1- Federer (22)
2- Agassi (20)
3- Sampras (15)
4- Nadal (7)
5- Roddick (6)
6- Djokovic (4)
7- Safin/Hewitt (3)
(I didn't include players who have fewer than 3 big titles or who have never won a slam on hard. All the players listed have won at least 1 slam on hard since 2000.)
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Interesting way of looking at it. It is still hard for me to believe Agassi is a better outdoor hard court player than Sampras overall though.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
I know, right? But Sampras was a great indoor player (of course with his serve!)
There aren't many tier 1 indoor events (hard or carpet) but Sampras won 9 of them, that's a lot!
1- Sampras (9) [including the 2 grand slam cups]
2- Agassi/Safin (4)
3- Federer/Nalbandian (3)
4- Hewitt/Djokovic/Davydenko (2)
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illkhiboy
Hall of Fame
True, and also because Federer was winning everything left and right, and then Nadal sort of joined him in dominating the tour way back in 2005. He won 2 hard court Masters, made the final of another one and dominated clay while getting a couple wins against Federer, so we were surprised every time he lost. And then he also became a great grass court player and so by default he was a bad hard court player.
But I think one other reason might be that he was such a confident player all this time that there had to be a reason why he couldn't be the No. 2 player on hard courts. And so the reason became, "He sucks on hard." Which is the fan-boy way of saying, "The guy is not the best in the business."
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
So if you combine indoor and outdoor hard (including carpet) for tier 1 events, you get:
1-Federer (25)
2-Sampras/Agassi (24)
3-Nadal (eight)
4-Safin (7)
5-Roddick/Djokovic (6) [0 ind for R]
6-Hewitt/Murray (5) [0 slam for M]
7-Davydenko (4) [0 slam]
8-Nalbandian (3) [0 outdoor]
1-Federer (25)
2-Sampras/Agassi (24)
3-Nadal (eight)
4-Safin (7)
5-Roddick/Djokovic (6) [0 ind for R]
6-Hewitt/Murray (5) [0 slam for M]
7-Davydenko (4) [0 slam]
8-Nalbandian (3) [0 outdoor]
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That is interesting. So Nadal is still ahead of Safin even when adding indoors. Are you sure all 3 of Safin's Paris titles were carpet and none an indoor hard court? I havent checked that and I dont remember each at this point.
And Agassi is still tied with Sampras and nearly tied with Federer's current total, even counting indoor hard courts. Wow.
It is intersting to wonder how far Nadal can reach. I dont think he can reach the 24 of Sampras and Agassi though, but who knows how close he could come. And Djokovic and Murray as well, both will probably pass Safin in this category but will either win 2 hard court slams as Safin did (or more).
On another note the TW god for some- Del Potro, still has to catch Tomas Johansson in this list at this point.
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He's a sore loser like TMF (the player, although the poster might be a sore loser too!).
P_Agony
Banned
Sarcastic? Me? What are you talking about?
S1CK4T3NN1S
Banned
Any of you who put nadal anywhere inside the top 8, are ********.
S1CK4T3NN1S
Banned
Any of you who put roddick in the top 8, are ********
S1CK4T3NN1S
Banned
You onviously cant play or understand tennis with a username like tacos rule.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
I'm sure Rafa will get in the double digits but his best surface will remain clay.That is interesting. So Nadal is still ahead of Safin even when adding indoors. Are you sure all 3 of Safin's Paris titles were carpet and none an indoor hard court? I havent checked that and I dont remember each at this point.
And Agassi is still tied with Sampras and nearly tied with Federer's current total, even counting indoor hard courts. Wow.
It is intersting to wonder how far Nadal can reach. I dont think he can reach the 24 of Sampras and Agassi though, but who knows how close he could come. And Djokovic and Murray as well, both will probably pass Safin in this category but will either win 2 hard court slams as Safin did (or more).
On another note the TW god for some- Del Potro, still has to catch Tomas Johansson in this list at this point.
Agassi is often underestimated because he won fewer slams than Sampras and his career was patchier. But the difference in slam # in favor of Sampras comes mostly from his grass dominance (7 W titles). Overall, Agassi was an extraordinary hard court player. (His 6 Miami titles come to mind, also he won every single master on hard, most of them several times and he had 6 slams on hard, very close to Sampras's 7).
Nadal will do way more on hard than the top hard court players can ever dream of doing on clay. That is Rafa's strength: no weak surface, which is why he has the 4 slams right now, the absolute record of 1000 and of 500 at only 24. This is why I reckon, ultimately, he will go down as the best of open era. Fed's fans use as an excuse that Fed couldn't be expected to overcome the king of clay and that would explain (or excuse so to speak) all the clay finals lost to Rafa but Rafa DID take grass from Fed and DID (will) take hard from whovever the current "kings" of hard are (Fed, Djoko, etc). Rafa doesn't find any obstacle "insurmountable"on any surface and that is why in the end, he will likely be seen as the superior player.
Delpo is still a total question mark. I can see no guarantee he will ever win a slam again. He has 1 big isolated win and he has a lot to confirm. It's too early to tell.
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I think the worst losses of Agassi's career were the 1991 French Open and 1995 U.S Open. Especialy the 1995 U.S Open. Had he won either of those he might have been the top player of that 2-3 year period. The 91 French Open was the start of his being owned mentally by Courier for awhile though, and the 95 U.S Open completely demoralized him and took him years to recover. In the end what his career suffers from most is there is no year he was truly the best player. Even 1999 he sort of wasnt since his U.S Open title has the asterix of Sampras's last minute withdrawal when Sampras was the overwhelming favorite that year, and his 1-4 vs Sampras for the year. He was always sort of second or third fiddle overall in his good years throughout his career, first to Lendl, Becker, and Edberg up until 1990, then to Courier and Edberg, then to Sampras, then to Hewitt for awhile, and lastly to Federer and a young Nadal.
I think had he won either of the matches I referred to, especialy the 1995 U.S Open, his career would have ended up looking alot better. He would have been undisputably the top player of 1995 rather than losing it again to Sampras despite his best year of tennis ever, and he would have been in great shape to carry onto the 96-98 period when he was still in his physical prime. Sampras didnt even really get better after 95, in 96 he won only 1 slam and lost to Philippoussis, Kafelnikov, and Krajicek in big slam matches. It would have been a perfect opportunity for Agassi but he just couldnt recover emotionally from that 95 U.S Open defeat until he was 29 and already past his physical prime.
For me Sampras will always be the greatest ever on grass though. Federer is probably the greatest ever on hard courts with Agassi and Sampras both up there too, but I would not consider Federer as great as Sampras no grass even if he won 8 Wimbledons. Sampras at his best would beat anyone of the Open Era on grass. I actually think Borg and Laver are better than Federer on grass too, they were similarily dominant against much tougher competition. If Nadal wins 5 Wimbledons and Federer never wins another I might even consider him above Federer on grass considering Federer in his prime was even having a hard time beating a pre prime Nadal on grass, and Nadal probably would have won in 2009 had he even been able to play.
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