why not? one can enjoy tacos and tennis simultaneously
Is Nadal 2nd greatest hard court player of last 10 years
- Thread starter Trillus
- Start date
why not? one can enjoy tacos and tennis simultaneously
MixieP
Hall of Fame
That's what you say, but we need evidence.
That's completely true. If Nadal was bad on clay, people here would say that Nadal is a fantastic hardcourt player seeing that his accomplishment on that surface are really good.
I checked Nadal rankings breakdown and it appears that if we counted only his hardcourt points, without the other surfaces, he would be ranked just higher than Murray.
2 GS, 5MS, the Olympic gold are the proof of that.
I think that he definitely achieved more than Djokovic and I think that at his best, Nadal is a better player than the serbian on hardcourt, eventhough Djokovic is winning the majority of their matchs on the surface as Nadal does not always bring his top level.
Nadal, Safin and Agassi are really a toss up.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Trillus, I agree with your analysis and about Agassi's toughest losses. They were all the more devastating as they came vs his direct American rivals: Courier and Sampras. It suddenly made him (the most promising teenager of the 3 for sure), the least succesful of the 3 (that's what it felt like at the time). It must have hurt a lot and I don't think it was fair to Agassi's talent and potential, so I'm glad in the end his achievements placed him way above Courier and close to Sampras (to me, achieving the golden career slam kind of evened out Sampras's higher # of slams overall and in masters Agassi's record is significantly better).
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nadal_slam_king
Banned
Yeah but the Davy h2h isn't worth much because we know what Davy does in slams. And Del Potro had never beaten Rafa until 2009 when he was out of form and injured. That's not an excuse it's just reality. Djokovic leads Rafa 7-4 on hardcourts but its not significant now that Rafa has beat him at the US Open. Safin never played prime Rafa. Murray is the only challenger, but Rafa still whooped him 6-1 6-2 at Indian Wells and there is promise that the new power serving Rafa will beat him.
The vast majority of people still dont see Agassi's career as close to Sampras's, but strangely enough it is more complete in some ways. It was good he was able to still become an all time great with his late career surge. Scary to think had he not had that surprising late career run with began with his shock win at the 99 French, he would be rated by most as an inferior player with an inferior career to Courier (nothing against Jim who I like alot but as far as pure talent that would be been crushing for Agassi).
nadal_slam_king
Banned
Agassi's reinvention was amazing. His attitude was so sharp in 1999. The 99 US Open in particular he was absolutely perfect physically and mentally. The Final vs Todd Martin was a great example, Agassi never lost serve during the long 5-setter, and never looked at all bothered by being down 2 sets to 1. Played it like a machine.
Your post is weak. Davy doesn’t count b/c he doesn’t do well at the slam. But Murray doesn’t count either despite beating Rafa at the slam(AO, USO). LMAO!
Del Potro is younger and turned pro in 2005(4 yrs after Nadal). So it’s understandable that a young Del Potro couldn’t beat Rafa until 2009 when he got better. Nadal was not injured. If he was, he wouldn’t play. Stop making excuses.
Peak Safin never played peak Nadal. But atleast many fans voted Safin as a superior hc player despite Safin fans are immensely outnumber by Rafa fans. Please see the poll.
nadal_slam_king
Banned
When did I say "Murray doesn't count"? I said "Murray is the only challenger". And you still can't face the reality that Rafa had a torn stomach muscle (5cm medically diagnosed). He served 107mph 1st serve average vs Del Potro. 14 miles slower than his 2010 US Open average. I can't speak to Laker fans, it's a waste of time.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
True. That revival was a "semi-miracle". I think he pulled it off just because of how much he needed it. He must have been transcended by his motivation to not go down as a second rate player, which he would have for sure without it.
As it is, Agassi won the 4 slams, the Olympics, the YEC, DC and 7 different masters. He made up in diversity what he couldn't achieve in consistency and he can be real proud of his record.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Agassi has won 2 hard court slams in the last 10 years. Actually technically Safin has only won 1 as well (2000 U.S Open was no longer in the last 10 years). The 2000 Australian Open was almost 11 years ago now.
nadal_slam_king
Banned
Agassi missed 2002 Australian Open with wrist injury. That's a shame he missed so many Australian Opens (didn't play it until 1995). He should have won 10 slams based on his absence at Australian Opens alone.
Dilettante
Hall of Fame
I think Nadal at his HC best plays a very high level HC tennis. But when he does not, he's just one among various HC co-favorites and maybe the one who has more visible vulnerable points overall (specially on faster HC, not so much at AO).
It's like on HC he can play an A+ game but when he drops, he drops directly to a C game, not B. That's my impression at least.
It's like on HC he can play an A+ game but when he drops, he drops directly to a C game, not B. That's my impression at least.
IIRC the draw was already set when he pulled out. He would have had Safin in the quarters and no sure thing he gets by that.
Nope not even close
He has won 2 Hard Court Majors. That is not enough to be even considered close to 2nd. And they were in 2009 and 2010 - so basically before 2009 - nothing (which was most of the decade).
The other thing is, he hasn't even made 1 season end final let alone win it.
I'd put Agassi far ahead. He made 2 Season end finals plus 2 US Open Finals (2002 & 2005) + 3 Australian Open Wins.
Federer of course is light years ahead. 9 Hard Court Majors + 5 Season end finals (winning 4)
He has won 2 Hard Court Majors. That is not enough to be even considered close to 2nd. And they were in 2009 and 2010 - so basically before 2009 - nothing (which was most of the decade).
The other thing is, he hasn't even made 1 season end final let alone win it.
I'd put Agassi far ahead. He made 2 Season end finals plus 2 US Open Finals (2002 & 2005) + 3 Australian Open Wins.
Federer of course is light years ahead. 9 Hard Court Majors + 5 Season end finals (winning 4)
Hewitt slightly ahead of Nadal
Agassi was in 2 US Open finals (2002 + 2005) + 3 Australian Open wins 2000, 2001, 2003.
Your list is about right. I'd rate Hewitt in a similar place to Nadal maybe slightly ahead of Nadal - He won US Open 2001 and was in the Australian Open final 2005, but also Hewitt has won 2 season end finals and Nadal hasn't reached one yet.
Agassi was in 2 US Open finals (2002 + 2005) + 3 Australian Open wins 2000, 2001, 2003.
Your list is about right. I'd rate Hewitt in a similar place to Nadal maybe slightly ahead of Nadal - He won US Open 2001 and was in the Australian Open final 2005, but also Hewitt has won 2 season end finals and Nadal hasn't reached one yet.
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Agassi has not won 3 Australian Opens in the last 10 years. The 2000 Australian Open was 10 years and 9 months ago, almost 11 years, so definitely not within the last 10 years as the title says.
To rate Hewitt above Nadal on hard courts is laughable. Nadal has won both the hard court slams. Hewitt has won the WTF twice yes, but he has only won 2 Masters on hard courts whereas Nadal has already won 5 plus the Olympic Gold.
To rate Roddick above at this point is also ridiculous.
To rate Hewitt above Nadal on hard courts is laughable. Nadal has won both the hard court slams. Hewitt has won the WTF twice yes, but he has only won 2 Masters on hard courts whereas Nadal has already won 5 plus the Olympic Gold.
To rate Roddick above at this point is also ridiculous.
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nadal_slam_king
Banned
Agassi won US Open 1995, 1999.
Agassi lost in US Open Final 1990, 1995, 2002, 2005.
Agassi won 4 Australian Opens - 1995, 2000, 2001, 2003.
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Hewitt Nadal
I said that Hewitt was marginally ahead. Why is it laughable?
They both have won the US Open. And Nadal has won the Australian Open and Hewitt has been close - making the final. Hewitt might make up that small gap and nudge ahead with two season end finals with Nadal not even having made a final yet.
I said that Hewitt was marginally ahead. Why is it laughable?
They both have won the US Open. And Nadal has won the Australian Open and Hewitt has been close - making the final. Hewitt might make up that small gap and nudge ahead with two season end finals with Nadal not even having made a final yet.
3 additional Masters plus the Olympics singles Gold certainly more than makes up for 2 Year end Masters. The Year End Masters isnt much better than those events, so no way 2 of those is bigger than 4 of the others. You make it sound like the season end finals is close to the value of a slam, LOL! And with Nadal winning both hard court slams it is no contest. Not to mention Hewitt only made it past the round of 16 of the Australian Open once, an overall pathetic record there.
Anywhere here is my order in the last 10 years (lets say since the 2000 U.S Open) on hard courts:
1. Federer
---big gap----
2. Nadal
3. Agassi
4. Safin
5. Hewitt
6. Roddick
7. Djokovic
illkhiboy
Hall of Fame
Since the 2000 US Open Agassi has accomplished a LOT more on hard courts than Nadal. Off the top, he has won 3-4 Masters, 2 Slams, 2 Slam finals, 2 Semis, 2 YEC finals.
Nadal has won both hard court Slams, which is better than 2 Australians. He has won 5 Masters, the Olympic Singles Gold which at the least should be considered bigger than a regular Masters (some would argue as big or bigger than a YEC title). Many of the things you are listing are not even wins, they are finals or semis. As far as wins Nadal is superior.
And people that complain about Nadal's draw to the U.S Open title should look at Agassi's draws to the 2001 and 2003 Australian Open titles. I take that into account too. If Nadal had been playing like the last 3 years, heck the last 5 years, at the soft transitional time frame when Hewitt was #1 he would have achieved even more on hard courts than he has.
Praetorian
Professional
nadal is the goat.. why bother to make threads like this
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll
I will probably remake this poll after the WTF. I will include Agassi, Roddick, and Hewitt as options in the remade poll.
One other thing to consider is who was the best hard court player each year. Here would be mine:
2001- Hewitt
2002- Either Sampras since he won the U.S Open or Hewitt based on overall results.
2003- Roddick
2004- Federer
2005- Federer
2006- Federer
2007- Federer
2008- Djokovic
2009- Nadal
2010- Will be Federer or Nadal, depends on how they finish the year. Right now Federer based on 1 slam and 1 Masters
And if one wanted to pick one for 2000 it would be Safin.
That is another reason I wouldnt pick Agassi as the 2nd best hard court player of the last 10 years. There isnt even one year out of the 10 years Agassi was the best hard court player.
One other thing to consider is who was the best hard court player each year. Here would be mine:
2001- Hewitt
2002- Either Sampras since he won the U.S Open or Hewitt based on overall results.
2003- Roddick
2004- Federer
2005- Federer
2006- Federer
2007- Federer
2008- Djokovic
2009- Nadal
2010- Will be Federer or Nadal, depends on how they finish the year. Right now Federer based on 1 slam and 1 Masters
And if one wanted to pick one for 2000 it would be Safin.
That is another reason I wouldnt pick Agassi as the 2nd best hard court player of the last 10 years. There isnt even one year out of the 10 years Agassi was the best hard court player.
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Er, no. 1 AO + 1 USO for Nadal is better than 2 AO. I would put 5 master titles + olympic gold on about the same level as 6 master titles for Andre. 2 500 titles for Nadal is better than... nothing for Agassi. The only difference is the 250: Agassi won 6, Rafa only 1. I'm not even gonna bother with semis and finals as Rafa has made plenty of them as well.
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Actually I just looked up his stats and Agassi has won 6 Masters titles since 2001 (or since 2000 since he didnt win any in 2000 anyway). That puts a different perspective on things and makes it alot closer.
So Agassi vs Nadal in the last 10 years:
Grand Slams- Nadal 1 Aus and 1 U.S Open, Agassi 2 Aus
TMC and Olympics- Agassi 0 at both, Nadal Olympic Gold
Masters titles- Agassi 6, Nadal 5
500 titles- Agassi 0, Nadal 2
I still would go with Nadal over Agassi even then though due to winning both hard court slams and the Olympic Gold. At the very least the Olympic Gold should be rated higher than a regular Masters. He has also been a bit more consistent, Agassi has some 1st or 2nd round losses including at the U.S Open in 2000 when he was the #1 seed. In 2001 and 2002 alone Agassi lost in the 1st round of 2 and 2nd round of a 3rd Masters events he was in, and from summer of 2000 to 2004 he lost 1st or 2nd round of 6 of them. That is without even playing them all. It would be one thing if Agassi had actually won the TMC but he didnt, and while he did make the finals twice he got destroyed by Kuerten and Federer in both which isnt really any different than Nadal getting destroyed by Federer in the semis twice.
I am baffled how anyone thinks Agassi accomplished alot more on hard courts in the last 10 years, especialy before knowing Agassi had won 6 Masters titles on hard courts as opposed to 4 or 5 as we all assumed.
So Agassi vs Nadal in the last 10 years:
Grand Slams- Nadal 1 Aus and 1 U.S Open, Agassi 2 Aus
TMC and Olympics- Agassi 0 at both, Nadal Olympic Gold
Masters titles- Agassi 6, Nadal 5
500 titles- Agassi 0, Nadal 2
I still would go with Nadal over Agassi even then though due to winning both hard court slams and the Olympic Gold. At the very least the Olympic Gold should be rated higher than a regular Masters. He has also been a bit more consistent, Agassi has some 1st or 2nd round losses including at the U.S Open in 2000 when he was the #1 seed. In 2001 and 2002 alone Agassi lost in the 1st round of 2 and 2nd round of a 3rd Masters events he was in, and from summer of 2000 to 2004 he lost 1st or 2nd round of 6 of them. That is without even playing them all. It would be one thing if Agassi had actually won the TMC but he didnt, and while he did make the finals twice he got destroyed by Kuerten and Federer in both which isnt really any different than Nadal getting destroyed by Federer in the semis twice.
I am baffled how anyone thinks Agassi accomplished alot more on hard courts in the last 10 years, especialy before knowing Agassi had won 6 Masters titles on hard courts as opposed to 4 or 5 as we all assumed.
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veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Correct, 6 master titles. I counted the Miami title once instead of 3 times, sorry!
T1000
Legend
Agassi also has the USO final in 2005, AO semi in 2004. Nadal just has the 08 AO semi and 08/09 USO semis. Agassi also didn't play the whole decade, Nadal did. He missed 07-10. Agassi also has the 2003 TMC final, Nadal never reached it once
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
Rafa made lots of other master finals though (and plenty of semis including WTF). Rafa didn't play the whole decade. He played his first year on the tour (not challengers, ATP) and entered his first slams in 2003.
Nadal did not play the whole decade. He turned pro in 2003 and his first slam was Wimbledon 2003. And it is means nothing Agassi didnt play after 2006 since he didnt have a prayer of doing anything in the remaining years at that point anyway (his results in 2006 made that pretty clear).
T1000
Legend
He turned pro in 2001 but keep telling yourself 2003 if it makes you feel better
veroniquem
Bionic Poster
WRONG: he played only challengers (and futures) before 2003. The ONLY atp event he played in 2002 was Mallorca (for obvious reasons) and it was on clay.
Nadal didn't enter any ATP event or slam on hard court before 2003.
He turned pro officialy in 2002 (you arent pro until you actually play 3 events and have a ranking). He didnt begin playing on tour regularly until 2003. Really it is stupid to argue though since it means nothing. Agassi didnt have a hope in hell of doing anything meaningful on tour at the time he retired so it is irrelevant whether he played from 2007 onwards or not, just like Nadal didnt have a hope of doing anything meaningful on tour in the early years of the decade. You are the one straw grasping bringing up a 37 or older Agassi being retired as if he missed out on some possible achievements by not playing, ROTFL!!
Season end finals
Actually yes, the season end final is just below a Slam event. It is far better on a players Resume than a Masters event. It is made up of the top 8 players. No easy matches at all.
In the 70's and first 1/2 of the 80's the Season end masters was regarded as a defacto major (given that the Australian Open during that period temporarily lost its Major status in most peoples minds). It is regarded universally as the number 5 event.
The olympics is on par with a Master level event.
My list would be:
Federer
----Big Gap-------
Agassi
Nadal (okay you convinced me)/Hewitt
Roddick
Actually yes, the season end final is just below a Slam event. It is far better on a players Resume than a Masters event. It is made up of the top 8 players. No easy matches at all.
In the 70's and first 1/2 of the 80's the Season end masters was regarded as a defacto major (given that the Australian Open during that period temporarily lost its Major status in most peoples minds). It is regarded universally as the number 5 event.
The olympics is on par with a Master level event.
My list would be:
Federer
----Big Gap-------
Agassi
Nadal (okay you convinced me)/Hewitt
Roddick
Nadal officially turned pro in 2001.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Rafael-Nadal.aspx
Just 3 years after Federer.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Roger-Federer.aspx
jackson vile
G.O.A.T.
abmk
Bionic Poster
Can you even read ? Timnz only talked about that specific period in the 70s and mid-80s and he never said it didn't count ....
The Baseline
Professional
Also thow a consistent Fernando Gonzalez into the mix maybe a top 5 or 6 player...
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Mr_Shiver
Semi-Pro
Nadal himself would laugh himself into the loony bin over this thread. He is a very good hc player and capable of winning any match. Would he be your first choice to play for you on hc? Its a shame Delpo got hurt. The way he hit through Fed and Nadal last year, if he can return to form he can throw himself into the conversation.
X
xRain
Guest
Well, it depends on what you mean by "greatest hard court player of the last in years." Are you asking if he's the 2nd best person who has played in the last ten years or are you asking if he's had the 2nd most success in the last ten years?
If it's the former, then I'd probably say Agassi.
If it's the former, then I'd probably say Agassi.
TomorrowNeverComes
Banned
Why not first?
HelloNewmann
Banned
Why not worst?
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