Is Nadal REALLY declining?

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PSNELKE

Legend
Yes! I mean he reached the final of the last 4 majors and winning one of them.

I suppose this is the right time to retire.

He simply got beaten by a player who appeared to play the better tennis in the last 12 months.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
I have to disagree, I think whether or not Nadal reaches the FO final he is still at his absolute peak. I think many of the rabid ****s are simply inventing a delusional level that Nadal himself actually never reached in 2008-early 2009. He is playing much better now than he was then. It just turns out that Nadal was so precocious, that his peak years are even more extended than Federer's, which really does break the myth that his style of play will reduce his longevity.

It appears so, I guess Nadal really is an extraordinary physical specimen...
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Oh and I forgot to add: he would have done the total clay sweep in the same breath (as the cherry on top of the Rafa slam's treat): M-C, Barcelona, Rome, Madrid and RG. How freaky is that? :shock:
I think Tipsy's little joke was right on the mark, despite being un-politically correct...
 
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jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
Or is he simply just out of form?

I personally dont think he is declining, how could he do that at 25? I know about his mileage and his brutal style of play etc etc, but still, really!?:shock:

I have counted him out many times already and I dont dare to do that ever again because usually he dissapoints me terribly by winning the title!

2011 USO there is so much at stake, so many questions will be answered.

IF Murray wins USO, If if if...then I think he will go on and win 3-5 GS in his career. If he doesnt win it, im afraid he will end his career with 0 Slams.

I think Nadal will win USO this year again. Yes. Ill place a bet on him anyway, so it will be a win-win-situation.


Guess what his new user name is. One hint, he pretends to be a Novak fan LOL
 

Clarky21

Banned
He's not declining. He just has a Djoko problem. Without the Djoko problem, he would be holding 4 slams in a row as we speak...


Wrong. And Nadal has a lot more players to worry about other than Djesus. Maybe you will finally be convinced after he stinks up the clay court season this year.
 

Sentinel

Bionic Poster
Wrong. And Nadal has a lot more players to worry about other than Djesus. Maybe you will finally be convinced after he stinks up the clay court season this year.
That's possibly because "Djesus" has broken his confidence and his aura of invincibility. His recent injury suggests that he's actually been training hard in Feb instead of resting.

Were it not for Joker 2.0, he could well have won all four slams in 2011 and AO 2012. (Edit: sorry he didn;t make AO final in 2011)
 

vive le beau jeu !

Talk Tennis Guru
Wrong. And Nadal has a lot more players to worry about other than Djesus. Maybe you will finally be convinced after he stinks up the clay court season this year.

That's possibly because "Djesus" has broken his confidence and his aura of invincibility. His recent injury suggests that he's actually been training hard in Feb instead of resting.

Were it not for Joker 2.0, he could well have won all four slams in 2011 and AO 2012. (Edit: sorry he didn;t make AO final in 2011)
i'm confused... are 'the peak nadal' and 'the benthic bull' one and the same player ?
7.gif
 

DRII

G.O.A.T.
That's possibly because "Djesus" has broken his confidence and his aura of invincibility. His recent injury suggests that he's actually been training hard in Feb instead of resting.

Were it not for Joker 2.0, he could well have won all four slams in 2011 and AO 2012. (Edit: sorry he didn;t make AO final in 2011)

Complete conjecture!
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Wrong. And Nadal has a lot more players to worry about other than Djesus. Maybe you will finally be convinced after he stinks up the clay court season this year.

Which is why in the last 4 slams he beat the crap out of everyone bar Novak.
 

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
Does it matter if he's "really" declining or just declining relatively? To me, "really" declining means that this version of Rafa would lose to previous verisions of Rafa. Maybe he is as good as previously, but if other players like Djokovic have raised the bar and Rafa's results aren't as good, then he's declining relatively, no matter if he's actually, technically as good as before.

The focus for me is on a decline in results, whether that's the result of "really" declining (can't hit the same shots as consistently as before, less speed, less endurance, etc.) or simply declining relative to his competition, or a bit of both.
 

Clarky21

Banned
Which is why in the last 4 slams he beat the crap out of everyone bar Novak.


He didn't beat the crap out of everyone bar Djesus. He struggled in a lot of his matches before he took his usual drubbing from FrankenCvac. Just wait a few weeks when the clay season starts to see for yourself just how bad he is going to suck this year. Last years stinker of a season will look like gold compared to this one.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
He didn't beat the crap out of everyone bar Djesus. He struggled in a lot of his matches before he took his usual drubbing from FrankenCvac. Just wait a few weeks when the clay season starts to see for yourself just how bad he is going to suck this year. Last years stinker of a season will look like gold compared to this one.

Isner troubled him at FO and that's about it, pray tell who are those other players he "struggled" with? If anything he reached Wimbledon, USO and AO finals considerably easier than Novak did.

Also if Nadal is in such serious decline right now why didn't he reach 4 slam finals in a row during his mythical peak but rather happened to achieve said feat during his "decline" ?
 

Clarky21

Banned
Isner troubled him at FO and that's about it, pray tell who are those other players he "struggled" with? If anything he reached Wimbledon, USO and AO finals considerably easier than Novak did.

Also if Nadal is in such serious decline right now why didn't he reach 4 slam finals in a row during his mythical peak but rather happened to achieve said feat during his "decline" ?


Did you watch Nadal at all last year? He struggled all the way through RG last year,especially during the first week. Shoot,he struggled all the way through the clay season,even losing a set to the mighty Paulo Lorenzi,who iirc,was ranked something like 153rd in the world at the time. He also struggled at Wimby with Delpo on Delpo's worst surface,and played one the worst slam finals I have ever seen. He struggled through the USO serving like he belongs in a amateur women's league,and stunk it up so bad in the fall season it dwarfed his usual catastrophes during that time of the season. He also struggled at the AO this year,and has gone more than a year now with no serve or backhand to speak of. He also hasn't won a title in almost a year.

What is it going to take for you see how badly he has declined? It's plain as day to me how bad he has gotten,and either you're not playing attention or you are just in denial. Like I said,just wait until clay season starts to see just how bad it is. Last year will look fabulous compared to the mess he is going to make out of this season. The end is nigh,folks. Last year was just the beginning.
 

Towser83

G.O.A.T.
Oh and I forgot to add: he would have done the total clay sweep in the same breath (as the cherry on top of the Rafa slam's treat): M-C, Barcelona, Rome, Madrid and RG. How freaky is that? :shock:
I think Tipsy's little joke was right on the mark, despite being un-politically correct...

would he for sure have all of those though? Didn't you say he lost Hamburg in 2007 because he was tired through playing the same clay schedule as last year? Last year he was worse on clay than 2006-2009, maybe worse than 2005 (can't remember enough of his matches that year) I mean Djokovic beat him easily in straight sets twice, if Nadal was better he would have at least put up a fight I think.

Overall though I don't think he's in decline, but on clay he has been better.
 

kiki

Banned
So what if he is declining? He cannot go further than World´s number 3, since the difference with the rest of the field is so overwhelmingly huge.
 

WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
I think that his backhand is worse even compared to his teenaged years. Watch miami 2005 or other matches around that time and tell me his backhand hasn`t declined. He also appears a bit slower. His forehand is more or less the same as recent years.

He`s still getting to finals, but that doesn`t mean he isn`t declining.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Did you watch Nadal at all last year?

Yes, I watch a lot of tennis.

He struggled all the way through RG last year,especially during the first week.

He only struggled with Isner the entire tourney, Fed struggled with Isner in 2007 USO, I guess he was declining then.

Shoot,he struggled all the way through the clay season,even losing a set to the mighty Paulo Lorenzi,who iirc,was ranked something like 153rd in the world at the time.

He lost to one single player the entire CC season, would hardly call that struggling.

He also struggled at Wimby with Delpo on Delpo's worst surface,and played one the worst slam finals I have ever seen.

The way Delpo was playing (serving especially) he would have most likely given top players all they can handle as well, besides Nadal usually has these relatively close encounters with big hitters in early rounds in Wimbledon (while grass is still somewhat fast) like against Gulbis in 2008 Wimbledon, Soderling in 2007 Wimbleodon, Petzschner in 2010 Wimbledon etc. if anything Delpo's better than those guys.

He struggled through the USO serving like he belongs in a amateur women's league...

Yes he struggled so much that he reached his 2nd ever USO final, if he was struggling at USO in 2011 then what was he doing in 2007, 2008 and 2009?


...and stunk it up so bad in the fall season it dwarfed his usual catastrophes during that time of the season.

Because Nadal is known for his amazing performances in the fall season, right? The guy didn't win a match in 2009 WTF yet won 3 slams next year so yet again irrelevant in the big picture.


He also struggled at the AO this year,and has gone more than a year now with no serve or backhand to speak of. He also hasn't won a title in almost a year.

LOL, yeah he struggled so much at AO that he reached his 2nd ever final there (beating the crap out of Fed along the way of course) and pushed the #1 in the world (on Novak's best surface to boot) to a 6 hour final. Again if he struggled at AO this year then what the heck was he doing at AO in 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2011? Struggling to hold a racquet or something?

What is it going to take for you see how badly he has declined?

I see decline as a noticeable decrease in performance against the field, in that regard Nadal is at an all time high, he has trouble with just one single player, nobody else can touch him as evidenced by the fact that he routinely reached 4 slam finals in a row and is 99% certain of making it 5 in a row at the FO this year.

He was never this consistently good against the field before.

It's plain as day to me how bad he has gotten,and either you're not playing attention or you are just in denial. .

No, I am paying attention, I just disagree with you viewpoint.

Like I said,just wait until clay season starts to see just how bad it is.

As long as he wins FO (and I pick him to do so) I doubt he'll consider his CC season a failure or something.

Last year will look fabulous compared to the mess he is going to make out of this season. The end is nigh,folks. Last year was just the beginning.

Interesting, if the end is nigh for the guy who reached 4 slam finals in a row and came within an inch of winning the only slam played this year so far then what should we say about other players on tour, should they change profession or something? Maybe switch to golf?
 
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tlm

G.O.A.T.
Did you watch Nadal at all last year? He struggled all the way through RG last year,especially during the first week. Shoot,he struggled all the way through the clay season,even losing a set to the mighty Paulo Lorenzi,who iirc,was ranked something like 153rd in the world at the time. He also struggled at Wimby with Delpo on Delpo's worst surface,and played one the worst slam finals I have ever seen. He struggled through the USO serving like he belongs in a amateur women's league,and stunk it up so bad in the fall season it dwarfed his usual catastrophes during that time of the season. He also struggled at the AO this year,and has gone more than a year now with no serve or backhand to speak of. He also hasn't won a title in almost a year.

What is it going to take for you see how badly he has declined? It's plain as day to me how bad he has gotten,and either you're not playing attention or you are just in denial. Like I said,just wait until clay season starts to see just how bad it is. Last year will look fabulous compared to the mess he is going to make out of this season. The end is nigh,folks. Last year was just the beginning.



Ya i saw that at the AO were he took joker to 5 sets.
 
D

Deleted member 77403

Guest
Yes, I watch a lot of tennis.



He only struggled with Isner the entire tourney, Fed struggled with Isner in 2007 USO, I guess he was declining then.



He lost to one single player the entire CC season, would hardly call that struggling.



The way Delpo was playing (serving especially) he would have most likely given top players all they can handle as well, besides Nadal usually has these relatively close encounters with big hitters in early rounds in Wimbledon (while grass is still somewhat fast) like against Gulbis in 2008 Wimbledon, Soderling in 2007 Wimbleodon, Petzschner in 2010 Wimbledon etc. if anything Delpo's better than those guys.



Yes he struggled so much that he reached his 2nd ever USO final, if he was struggling at USO in 2011 then what was he doing in 2007, 2008 and 2009?




Because Nadal is known for his amazing performances in the fall season, right? The guy didn't win a match in 2009 WTF yet won 3 slams next year so yet again irrelevant in the big picture.




LOL, yeah he struggled so much at AO that he reached his 2nd ever final there (beating the crap out of Fed along the way of course) and pushed the #1 in the world (on Novak's best surface to boot) to a 6 hour final. Again if he struggled at AO this year then what the heck was he doing at AO in 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2011? Struggling to hold a racquet or something?



I see decline as a noticeable decrease in performance against the field, in that regard Nadal is at an all time high, he has trouble with just one single player, nobody else can touch him as evidenced by the fact that he routinely reached 4 slam finals in a row and is 99% certain of making it 5 in a row at the FO this year.

He was never this consistently good against the field before.



No, I am paying attention, I just disagree with you viewpoint.



As long as he wins FO (and I pick him to do so) I doubt he'll consider his CC season a failure or something.



Interesting, if the end is nigh for the guy who reached 4 slam finals in a row and came within an inch of winning the only slam played this year so far then what should we say about other players on tour, should they change profession or something? Maybe switch to golf?

Getting back into the Tennis again, after my Wrestlemania 28 experience. And I must say Zagor, you are still producing the gems around here. :)
 

Crisstti

Legend
Oh and I forgot to add: he would have done the total clay sweep in the same breath (as the cherry on top of the Rafa slam's treat): M-C, Barcelona, Rome, Madrid and RG. How freaky is that? :shock:
I think Tipsy's little joke was right on the mark, despite being un-politically correct...

I don't see how that means he's not declining though (not that I think he is). I don't think we can consider his level as if he had won all those finals he lost. For example, we cannot consider Fed's been as good as if he had won RG all those years he reached the final, because he didn't win them, or as if he'd won 20+ slams, because, even though mostly he lost to one player, he still lost.
Doesn't losing all the finals Rafa lost last year say, after all, something about his level? (not saying Novak's own level doesn't have a lot to do with it, BTW).
 
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Clarky21

Banned
Ya i saw that at the AO were he took joker to 5 sets.


Yeah,and lost after being up a break in the fifth(mental midget). Who cares if he took him to 5 sets or not when still lost to Djesus for the 8,452,885,125 time in a row.
 
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Clarky21

Banned
I don't see how that means he's not declining though (not that I think he is). I don't think we can consider his level as if he had won all those finals he lost. For example, we cannot consider Fed's been as good ass if he had won RG all those years he reached the final, because he didn't win them, or as if he'd won 20+ slams, because, even though mostly he lost to one player, he still lost.
Doesn't losing all the finals Rafa lost last year say, after all, something about his level? (not saying Novak's own level doesn't have a lot to do with it, BTW).


Nadal in his prime would not have lost 7 times in a row to Djesus no matter how well Djesus was playing. He would have won at least one of those finals. He is declining,and the upcoming clay season will prove it.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
I don't see how that means he's not declining though (not that I think he is). I don't think we can consider his level as if he had won all those finals he lost. For example, we cannot consider Fed's been as good as if he had won RG all those years he reached the final, because he didn't win them, or as if he'd won 20+ slams, because, even though mostly he lost to one player, he still lost.
Doesn't losing all the finals Rafa lost last year say, after all, something about his level? (not saying Novak's own level doesn't have a lot to do with it, BTW).


Losing all those finals would signify decline IF Rafa had lost them to different players, which is not the case.
a- 2011 produced the most finals Rafa has ever made in 1 season. How could that signal decline is beyond me.
b- He lost all the tier 1 finals to 1 player: Indian Wells, Miami, Madrid, Rome, Wimbledon, USO, AO, all lost to Djoko. The finals where he played someone else, he won: Monte-Carlo and RG.

I am not saying that all those losses to Djoko may not cause discouragement and subsequently trigger a decline. I hope not but I know it's a possibility.
In 2011 though, Rafa had a spectacular season that would have yielded phenomenal results if Djokovic's level hadn't soared as well and provided him with all the answers to Rafa's game to boot. If you define a decline by "a block against another player", then Fed has been declining on and off since 2004 (ie: since he made it to the top!!).
 
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sbengte

G.O.A.T.
Nadal in his prime would not have lost 7 times in a row to Djesus no matter how well Djesus was playing. He would have won at least one of those finals. He is declining,and the upcoming clay season will prove it.

Umm. No. The biggest flaw in the above assumption is that Nadal's best > Novak's best which is completely baseless.

Also care to answer the very pertinent question below ? Wonder why no one who is talking of a Nadal decline answers this simple question and also explains how Nadal made so many finals last year while declining ? You are not implying that it is because of his cake draws, are you ?

Also if Nadal is in such serious decline right now why didn't he reach 4 slam finals in a row during his mythical peak but rather happened to achieve said feat during his "decline" ?
 

Tony48

Legend
Nadal in his prime would not have lost 7 times in a row to Djesus no matter how well Djesus was playing. He would have won at least one of those finals. He is declining,and the upcoming clay season will prove it.

Nadal "in his prime" never made 4 slam finals in a row, sooo......

Take away Djokovic and Nadal would have won 7 of the last 8 slams (and 4 in a row). THIS makes it obvious that Djokovic is a bigger factor than you are willing to admit. It's unfortunate for Nadal, but it's the truth.
 
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cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
Yeah,and lost after being up a break in the fifth(mental midget). Who cares if he took him to 5 sets or not when still lost to Djesus for the 8,452,885,125 time in a row.

It just means Djokovic has Nadal's number and is a poor match-up for Nadal.
Djokovic raised his level of physicality and his confidence level and simply had answers for everything Nadal threw at him--he out-defended Nadal. The question will be can Djokovic continue that insane level?
 
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Logan71

Rookie
What really has happened is what Nadal fans are struggling with just as Federer fans have.

Nadal has clearly been overtaken.It happened to Fed,Sampras,Becker,Mcenroe,Connors etc....

Whether it's age,ability,ball changes,surfaces,mental fragility,you can't stop it.

A few posters have nailed it on the head in defending Rafa,he had a spectacular season and lost every major final he was in.

Doesn't matter if he was at his peak or declined,he got nothing,and if anything played with guts at the Aus12 and still got beaten after snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Will it go on? Well he needs the FO more now more than ever.If he loses there I would suspect there isn't a tournament on earth where he can hide from Djokovic.
 

Crisstti

Legend
Losing all those finals would signify decline IF Rafa had lost them to different players, which is not the case.
a- 2011 produced the most finals Rafa has ever made in 1 season. How could that signal decline is beyond me.
b- He lost all the tier 1 finals to 1 player: Indian Wells, Miami, Madrid, Rome, Wimbledon, USO, AO, all lost to Djoko. The finals where he played someone else, he won: Monte-Carlo and RG.

I am not saying that all those losses to Djoko may not cause discouragement and subsequently trigger a decline. I hope not but I know it's a possibility.
In 2011 though, Rafa had a spectacular season that would have yielded phenomenal results if Djokovic's level hadn't soared as well and provided him with all the answers to Rafa's game to boot. If you define a decline by "a block against another player", then Fed has been declining on and off since 2004 (ie: since he made it to the top!!).

Well, he lost to Murray in Tokyo as well.
I think the situation with Fed is a little different, in that he always had a a losing record against Rafa, while the results of Rafa's and Novak's matches has changed recently... of course that has a lot to do with Novak raising his level, but I don't think we can discount the possibility of Rafa lowering his, particularly on certain aspects, like depth and keeping himself together in certain moments. Now I don't think this means he's declining necessarily, but that he's done certain things better before.
 

rafan

Hall of Fame
Yes but the big question is how long can Djoko keep this up . Whether people like it or not Rafa invented the new Djokovic. For a long time he was very much the number three in the race and his focus had to be on being that much better than Nadal. If you think Rafa is finished then wait and see how long Djoko can remain in the enormous fight it has all become in tennis, without it telling on his physical and mental wellbeing. Nadal may be nursing some of the scars which took him to the top but Djoko will be feeling them soon also. I cannot forget that Australian open and just how much it took it out of both of them. Is this how it is going to be from now on?
 

Clarky21

Banned
Yes but the big question is how long can Djoko keep this up . Whether people like it or not Rafa invented the new Djokovic. For a long time he was very much the number three in the race and his focus had to be on being that much better than Nadal. If you think Rafa is finished then wait and see how long Djoko can remain in the enormous fight it has all become in tennis, without it telling on his physical and mental wellbeing. Nadal may be nursing some of the scars which took him to the top but Djoko will be feeling them soon also. I cannot forget that Australian open and just how much it took it out of both of them. Is this how it is going to be from now on?


You mean with Nadal constantly losing to Djesus? if so then the answer is yes.
 
I honestly think Rafa is declining. Just look at how much less explosive he is than from say... 2010. Forehand seemed to have lost a noticeable amount of bite that made it such a weapon some years ago. Not to mention, he seems to be losing a major edge psychologically. Just look at how much harder it is sometimes for him to close out a match and how negative he gets on the court now.

We all saw it with Fed in 08' and 09' when everyone noticed how much less explosive off the ground he was and how drastically his forehand and consistency dropped off. It's an obvious double standard by fed fans to think that just because Nadal is still posting good results this year and 2011, that he's not declining. Fed was still putting up solid results in 2008 and 2009, but was very obviously a shadow of his former self.
 

Sentinel

Bionic Poster
Yes but the big question is how long can Djoko keep this up . Whether people like it or not Rafa invented the new Djokovic. For a long time he was very much the number three in the race and his focus had to be on being that much better than Nadal. If you think Rafa is finished then wait and see how long Djoko can remain in the enormous fight it has all become in tennis, without it telling on his physical and mental wellbeing. Nadal may be nursing some of the scars which took him to the top but Djoko will be feeling them soon also. I cannot forget that Australian open and just how much it took it out of both of them. Is this how it is going to be from now on?
Great post, rafan.
We'll just have to see as the clay season unfolds. How long can Noel maintain his form ? Hang in there, dude.
 

Sentinel

Bionic Poster
I honestly think Rafa is declining. Just look at how much less explosive he is than from say... 2010. Forehand seemed to have lost a noticeable amount of bite that made it such a weapon some years ago. Not to mention, he seems to be losing a major edge psychologically. Just look at how much harder it is sometimes for him to close out a match and how negative he gets on the court now.

We all saw it with Fed in 08' and 09' when everyone noticed how much less explosive off the ground he was and how drastically his forehand and consistency dropped off. It's an obvious double standard by fed fans to think that just because Nadal is still posting good results this year and 2011, that he's not declining. Fed was still putting up solid results in 2008 and 2009, but was very obviously a shadow of his former self.
So if Joker 2.0 had not come around, and Rafa has won all those finals, and majors, would you have still said he is declining.
If Rafa had won 4 in a row, would you still be saying this.

What have we to go with other than results. Otherwise, it's too subjective.
 
I've been saying for months that Nadal has not declined one iota, that he's been better than ever. The data do not lie.

But I was called a troll for this. Now we see that Dorky is and always has been the real troll.
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
Well, he lost to Murray in Tokyo as well.
I think the situation with Fed is a little different, in that he always had a a losing record against Rafa, while the results of Rafa's and Novak's matches has changed recently... of course that has a lot to do with Novak raising his level, but I don't think we can discount the possibility of Rafa lowering his, particularly on certain aspects, like depth and keeping himself together in certain moments. Now I don't think this means he's declining necessarily, but that he's done certain things better before.



Sure, it's probably a combination of both in the end. I didn't mention Tokyo because it's a minor tournament, I was listing only "tier 1" events because of how striking it is that Rafa made the final of so many of them and happened to lose all of them to the same player.
 

Evan77

Banned
I wouldn't say that he is 'declining' per se ... he is still beating everyone except Djokovic. Novak simply has raised his game to the next level and pretty much nobody on the tour can touch him right now ...

It happens all the time... It'll happen to Djoko too ... because nothing last forever ... but at this moment it's Djokovic era and there isn't much Nadal can do. I guess the dilemma many guys on this board have is has ' Djokovic improved' or has 'Nadal declined'? I still believe that Djokovic simply improved and Nadal is still Nadal.
 
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mattennis

Hall of Fame
Oh Come on!!! Had Djokovic not raised his level in 2011 and Nadal would have 13 GS and 23 M-1000 right now!!! (which is a scary thought taking into account that he is 25 years old).

He would be beating everybody left and right if not for Djokovic2.0 new higher level.

In fact, I can say that I believe Nadal would have gotten to 16 or more GS eventually had Djokovic stayed at the level he was in 2010.

But these things happen in tennis. If not for Nadal, Federer would have 20 GS or more, if not for Sampras, Agassi would have 12 or 13 GS probably,...

I always knew (since 2007 ) that Djokovic was (potentially) THE BEST player of this era after Federer. Everybody could see the inmense natural talent he had, both with his racquet and his quickness.

In 2010 I started to think that unfortunately he would never live up to his inmense potential, but in 2011 he proved me wrong.

Nadal in 2011 and still today wins against any other player when it matters the most (the GS), something he could never do before.
 

Evan77

Banned
Oh Come on!!! Had Djokovic not raised his level in 2011 and Nadal would have 13 GS and 23 M-1000 right now!!! (which is a scary thought taking into account that he is 25 years old).

He would be beating everybody left and right if not for Djokovic2.0 new higher level.

In fact, I can say that I believe Nadal would have gotten to 16 or more GS eventually had Djokovic stayed at the level he was in 2010.

But these things happen in tennis. If not for Nadal, Federer would have 20 GS or more, if not for Sampras, Agassi would have 12 or 13 GS probably,...

I always knew (since 2007 ) that Djokovic was (potentially) THE BEST player of this era after Federer. Everybody could see the inmense natural talent he had, both with his racquet and his quickness.

In 2010 I started to think that unfortunately he would never live up to his inmense potential, but in 2011 he proved me wrong.

Nadal in 2011 and still today wins against any other player when it matters the most (the GS), something he could never do before.

exactly... great post

Nadal 'happened' to Fed, then Djokovic 'happened' to Nadal ... and we'll have to wait and see who is going to 'happen' to Djokovic.
 
So if Joker 2.0 had not come around, and Rafa has won all those finals, and majors, would you have still said he is declining.
If Rafa had won 4 in a row, would you still be saying this.

What have we to go with other than results. Otherwise, it's too subjective.

It works both ways Senti. If Rafa 2.0 had not come around in 2008 and won all those clay finals and Wimbledon, would we still have been saying Fed was declining too?

If Fed managed to win those 6 slam finals in a row from French Open 08' to Wimby 09', would we still say Fed was declining? I get where you're coming from Senti, but surely you can see the enigma of this.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
I honestly think Rafa is declining. Just look at how much less explosive he is than from say... 2010. Forehand seemed to have lost a noticeable amount of bite that made it such a weapon some years ago. Not to mention, he seems to be losing a major edge psychologically. Just look at how much harder it is sometimes for him to close out a match and how negative he gets on the court now.

That's your observation, some of us may see it differently. Last Wimbledon for example Nadal hit his FH and served amazingly well IMO. I do think he might have declined on clay (or maybe it was some mini slump), I don't think he played his best in clay season last year but on HC and grass I think at the very least his average level is as good as ever.

We all saw it with Fed in 08' and 09' when everyone noticed how much less explosive off the ground he was and how drastically his forehand and consistency dropped off.

Who do you mean by "we" exactly? Cause I was around in that time and plenty of Nadal fans were dismissing even the possibility that Fed declined and it was all down to Nadal's improvement as a player. It's quite interesting how they changed their tune now when Nadal has been overtaken by another great player..

It's an obvious double standard by fed fans to think that just because Nadal is still posting good results this year and 2011, that he's not declining.

Just like it's obvious double standard from Nadal fans to have claimed that Fed didn't decline in 2008-2009 (heck some of them are claiming Fed still hasn't declined and the guy will turn 31 this year) but now suddenly claim Nadal has declined at the age of 24.

Fed was still putting up solid results in 2008 and 2009, but was very obviously a shadow of his former self.

I wouldn't say a shadow of his former self, he was still in his prime (though not at his peak) IMO until 2010.

It works both ways Senti. If Rafa 2.0 had not come around in 2008 and won all those clay finals and Wimbledon, would we still have been saying Fed was declining too?

Yes we would have because regardless of Nadal, Fed's performance against the field dipped compared to his very best years. Nadal on the other hand for example never reached 4 slam finals in a row before 2011-2012, he never before displayed that level of consistency.

I mean let's say we take Nadal from the field in 2006 and 2008 thus making things much easier for Fed, 2006 would have still been a clearly better season for Fed. However if we take Novak 2.0 from the field in 2011 and Nadal would have very likely (since we're speculating anyway) had his best career year.

If Fed managed to win those 6 slam finals in a row from French Open 08' to Wimby 09', would we still say Fed was declining? I get where you're coming from Senti, but surely you can see the enigma of this.

But that's the thing, you should compare each player's performance to his personal standard.

Sure Fed reached 4 slam finals in 2009 for example but that was already the third time he achieved that particular feat while Nadal for the first time ever in his career managed to do so in 2011, you have to admit it's a bit strange that people claim that Nadal has displayed never before seen consistency on slam level at the exact time his supposed decline started?
 

jackson vile

G.O.A.T.
It works both ways Senti. If Rafa 2.0 had not come around in 2008 and won all those clay finals and Wimbledon, would we still have been saying Fed was declining too?

If Fed managed to win those 6 slam finals in a row from French Open 08' to Wimby 09', would we still say Fed was declining? I get where you're coming from Senti, but surely you can see the enigma of this.

Don't, your going to make them cry. They will have to use their brains for once.
 

Crisstti

Legend
Sure Fed reached 4 slam finals in 2009 for example but that was already the third time he achieved that particular feat while Nadal for the first time ever in his career managed to do so in 2011, you have to admit it's a bit strange that people claim that Nadal has displayed never before seen consistency on slam level at the exact time his supposed decline started?

Consistency maybe, but not peak level I'd say (at the very least not on clay).
 

veroniquem

Bionic Poster
I wouldn't say that he is 'declining' per se ... he is still beating everyone except Djokovic. Novak simply has raised his game to the next level and pretty much nobody on the tour can touch him right now ...

It happens all the time... It'll happen to Djoko too ... because nothing last forever ... but at this moment it's Djokovic era and there isn't much Nadal can do. I guess the dilemma many guys on this board have is has ' Djokovic improved' or has 'Nadal declined'? I still believe that Djokovic simply improved and Nadal is still Nadal.


I'm closest to your opinion. There can't be any significant decline when someone makes every slam final, beating Murray or Fed on the way. Not only did Rafa do 4 slam finals in a row for the 1st time in his career (that's an improvement, not a decline) but he also reached every clay event final (MC, Barcelona, Madrid, Rome, RG) for only the 2nd time in his career (the first was in 2007). How is that a decline exactly?
I think a lot of proponents of the decline theory are people who dislike Djoko and do not want to give credit to him under any circumstances and the only way not to give credit to Djoko is to claim Rafa played like crap. The truth though is that Djoko has become better. It happens. That means Rafa even at his very best is not guaranteed to beat Djoko anymore. That's happened to all the best players and it will happen to Djoko as well. One is the best until someone else becomes better. Then you can figure the other guy out or not. That's quite a challenge but that's what Rafa has to do right now.
ETA: I also refuse to use tournaments in the fall to back up the decline theory. Yes, Rafa played mediocre at WTF and the masters before but that has happened in previous seasons. He has played dismal tennis at WTF and other fall events before. So, that doesn't spell decline to me, more like a common Rafa trend. And his subsequent perf at AO certainly proves my point.
 
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WhiskeyEE

G.O.A.T.
I'm closest to your opinion. There can't be any significant decline when someone makes every slam final, beating Murray or Fed on the way. Not only did Rafa do 4 slam finals in a row for the 1st time in his career (that's an improvement, not a decline) but he also reached every clay event final (MC, Barcelona, Madrid, Rome, RG) for only the 2nd time in his career (the first was in 2007). How is that a decline exactly?
I think a lot of proponents of the decline theory are people who dislike Djoko and do not want to give credit to him under any circumstances and the only way not to give credit to Djoko is to claim Rafa played like crap. The truth though is that Djoko has become better. It happens. That means Rafa even at his very best is not guaranteed to beat Djoko anymore. That's happened to all the best players and it will happen to Djoko as well. One is the best until someone else becomes better. Then you can figure the other guy out or not. That's quite a challenge but that's what Rafa has to do right now.

regardless of his overall results, just by watching individual matches, he has declined in certain areas. Namely his backhand and movement. Maybe he's gotten better in other ways to make up for it.
 
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