Is Nadal the only player with an 'ATP-style' two-handed backhand?

[thomasferrett]

This video;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9uUZamWMGI

makes some interesting points.

It says that Djokovic uses a traditional power position where the racket head is held high above the handle - mirroring the backswing of the WTA-forehand. When swinging through contact, the strings scoop through the ball as in an old-school Tim Henman type of forehand.

Nadal has a pat-the-dog power position where the racket strings are pointed towards the ground and the racket head is on the same vertical level as the handle - this mirrors the backswing of the ATP-forehand (including his own forehand and Federer's forehand). When swinging though contact, the strings will often wipe across the face of the ball as in a modern windshield-wiper forehand (although Nadal does not always hit backhands in this way and will actually often use a Djokovic-type of followthrough).

The benefits of the ATP-style forehand over the WTA forehand are clear; increased spin potential and shorter take-back. Are there actually any advantages to the WTA forehand?

Yet, despite this, the video argues that Djokovic's backhand is stronger/better than Nadal's...

Is this because of the fact that Djokovic is generally more talented on the backhand side, or is Nadal's backhand weaker BECAUSE he is using this ATP-style 2hbh, whereas pretty much everyone else on the ATP is using a WTA-style 2hbh...? So there is something intrinsically weaker about the ATP-style 2hbh?

If so, why would the ATP-style 2hbh be weaker than the WTA-style 2hbh, when the ATP-style forehand is stronger than the WTA-style forehand?

Finally, do you notice anyone else on the women's or men's tour using an ATP-style 2hbh similar to Nadal's? If so, who?

Cheers

 

[0d1n]

Nadal's may be more "ATP style" but Djokovic's "WTA" backhand is twice the shot that Nadal's backhand is.
Nalbandian, Kafelnikov, Agassi are all examples of absolutely brilliant backhands.
Think about how you would classify them in terms of those two categories you are using, and draw your own conclusions.

 

[skiracer55]

If Nadal is the only player...

This video;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9uUZamWMGI

makes some interesting points.

It says that Djokovic uses a traditional power position where the racket head is held high above the handle - mirroring the backswing of the WTA-forehand. When swinging through contact, the strings scoop through the ball as in an old-school Tim Henman type of forehand.

Nadal has a pat-the-dog power position where the racket strings are pointed towards the ground and the racket head is on the same vertical level as the handle - this mirrors the backswing of the ATP-forehand (including his own forehand and Federer's forehand). When swinging though contact, the strings will often wipe across the face of the ball as in a modern windshield-wiper forehand (although Nadal does not always hit backhands in this way and will actually often use a Djokovic-type of followthrough).

The benefits of the ATP-style forehand over the WTA forehand are clear; increased spin potential and shorter take-back. Are there actually any advantages to the WTA forehand?

Yet, despite this, the video argues that Djokovic's backhand is stronger/better than Nadal's...

Is this because of the fact that Djokovic is generally more talented on the backhand side, or is Nadal's backhand weaker BECAUSE he is using this ATP-style 2hbh, whereas pretty much everyone else on the ATP is using a WTA-style 2hbh...? So there is something intrinsically weaker about the ATP-style 2hbh?

If so, why would the ATP-style 2hbh be weaker than the WTA-style 2hbh, when the ATP-style forehand is stronger than the WTA-style forehand?

Finally, do you notice anyone else on the women's or men's tour using an ATP-style 2hbh similar to Nadal's? If so, who?

Cheers

..playing with an "ATP-style backhand", then it can't very well be an ATP style backhand, right? I'd argue that Djoker's backhand, which is pretty much what everyone else on the ATP uses, for better or worse, is the standard item. Nadal's backhand isn't weak at all, but like his forehand, on shots where he gets a lot of topspin and not much pace through the court, the ball can sit up mid-court, where the opponent can take a good whack at it.

"WTA-style backhand" is a similar misnomer. Go look at the backhands of Coco Vanderwhege, or Madison Keys. If you can hit the ball like that, you can play on the ATP...

 

[eaglesburg]

It's because nadal is a natural righty.

 

[Quikj]

Gulbis closes his racket face and "pats the dog" in the backswing quite a bit. I remember one of my hitting partners trying to emulate this.

https://youtu.be/zlebgMBe7DQ?t=27s

 

[JohnYandell]

This video is just a confused rip off of Brian Gordon. They don't acknowledge him or even get his argument right.
Nadal is one of the few players with both arms straight at contact. Novak has the more common for the men, bent straight, combined with the outside backswing and the slightly closed racket face at the top of the backswing. Murray is very similar.
There is a false assumption so many of these guys make: one video clip or two tells the whole story. There are variations in the swings of all the players that are situational. You have to look at dozens or hundreds to make statements with accuracy.

 

[rkelley]

I don't know that the video gave much, if any, useful information. I'm with John Y. (like he needs my support) in that the arm structure at contact is a super important aspect to each backhand, and Nadal is very different than almost every one else.

I also think that the arm structure, along with the grips, have a lot to do with exactly how power and swing path are generated. I don't know that blanket statements about the high head position in the backswing are really key to how the stroke works.

Relative to ATP vs WTA, as previously said almost all the men are str/bent at contact, while a good number (but not all) of the women are bent/bent at contact. I don't know that one is better than the other either. Perhaps differences in men's and women's physique make one or the other hitting structure more optimal. I don't know though.

I'm only aware of few men, like Nadal, Agassi, and Borg, who are str/str at contact (I'm sure there are others). All great bhs to be sure, but perhaps str/bent or bent/bent are easier to time.

 

[thomasferrett]

I don't know that the video gave much, if any, useful information. I'm with John Y. (like he needs my support) in that the arm structure at contact is a super important aspect to each backhand, and Nadal is very different than almost every one else.

I also think that the arm structure, along with the grips, have a lot to do with exactly how power and swing path are generated. I don't know that blanket statements about the high head position in the backswing are really key to how the stroke works.

Relative to ATP vs WTA, as previously said almost all the men are str/bent at contact, while a good number (but not all) of the women are bent/bent at contact. I don't know that one is better than the other either. Perhaps differences in men's and women's physique make one or the other hitting structure more optimal. I don't know though.

I'm only aware of few men, like Nadal, Agassi, and Borg, who are str/str at contact (I'm sure there are others). All great bhs to be sure, but perhaps str/bent or bent/bent are easier to time.

I disagree actually with the importance you seem to be giving to hitting arm configuration with respect to bent/straight/whatever.

Look at Agassi's backhand and Nadal's backhand. They are about as polar opposite as you can get for two-handed backhand technique, yet both use a straight/straight hitting arm configuration.

Nadal's swing path has a pat-the-dog backswing and a windshield wiper contact/followthrough with significant non-dominant arm contribution, whereas Agassi's backhand takeback and contact/followthrough look very similar to Djokovic's, except he has a straight/straight configuration whereas Djokovic has a slight bend in his dominant arm.

In my opinion, the difference between Agassi's and Nadal's backhands is profound, whereas the difference between Agassi's and Djokovic's backhands is minimal - and this is despite the fact that Agassi and Nadal use the same hitting arm configuration.

 

[TennisCJC]

Maybe Nadal's lower prep and lower loop and more closed face are a by product of his heavy top clay court style. Djokovic's and Agassi's higher takeback and not quite as much drop or closing of the face are a by product of their more aggressive hard court style.

To me, one key point is even "flatter" 2HBH have to have some drop and some closing of the racket face to get topspin. Djoko and Agassi both loop the racket head down and close the face a bit but just not as much as Rafa. I have some some pictures of Nadal with an exaggerated drop to the point that the racket head is pointed 45 degrees down from his hands and the racket tip is well below his knees. That steep drop allows him to brush it more severely than Djoko or Agassi.

 

[JohnYandell]

Guys,

That link is inaccurate and does more harm than good. Agassi has a slightly closed racket face and an outside backswing position--as do both Nadal and Djok. That's on the huge majority of balls.
Agassi's racket position is usually about the same height as Nadal's, or if higher not much. But they all vary slightly depending.
Djok definitely does not swing the outside foot around until after the full extension of the swing, if then. This is a fundamental teaching myth that has hurt a lot of players. Neither does AA or Nadal.
Nadal definitely does not stay sideways to the ball. He uses his hips as do Djok and AA. Typically the shoulders and hips are about 45 degrees to the net at contact for all of them.
Nadal does not wiper the majority of his finishes, just a few. Again same for Agassi and Novak.
If you look at frame by frame video of Nadal and Agassi they both reach a triangle position with both arms straight about half way out in the followthrough. This shows the increased role of the bottom arm--it's straighter like a one handed backhand. Novak and Murray are bent at this point.
That's why understanding the hitting arm configurations is important--shows the role of the arms and the balance between them.
Just because something is on you tube that doesn't make it accurate. Research requires a substantial data pool if you want accurate conclusions.

 

[LoboLaw1984]

No, Nadal is not the only player in the ATP with an "ATP style backhand." I swear, where do people get this nonsense.