Is Nadals topspin forehand the greatest Topspin forehand ever?
- Thread starter King of Aces
- Start date
Federer_pilon
Professional
They actually measure swing speed? I didn't know about that. I'm taking a short break at work; don't have time to look up all this info right now. lol
Thanks for the effort
I don't understand your logic for why he'd have a better serve..
But do you HONESTLY think a slightly better serve would make up for him being lefty? Not even close.
Federer_pilon
Professional
I wonder how they measure racquet head speed lol. Where did u get this info?
deltox
Hall of Fame
same place i always find my info... google.com search racquet head speed tennis and start clicking
deltox
Hall of Fame
They actually measure swing speed? I didn't know about that. I'm taking a short break at work; don't have time to look up all this info right now. lol
Thanks for the effort
they measure everything in todays sports. bat speed is ultra important for baseball so i presume racquet head speed would be super important in tennis.
sadly most articles quote damn badmiton racquet speeds.
runningmann
Rookie
how would Nastaze's double strung racquet compare? I heard the spin was so extreme, but maybe it is similar to today's spin?
deltox
Hall of Fame
Federer_pilon
Professional
I found this:
http://www.tennisplayer.net/bulletin/showthread.php?t=507
The author of this article has calculated Nadal's racquet head speed to be about 115mph. I don't know how reliable this is. Even if the number was accurate, it's still not reliable because this calculation is based on one single shot. You would need a bigger sample.
deltox
Hall of Fame
to much math for me, i need a chart -=p
apparently the racquet that provides the best head speed is the prince O3 due to the holes in the head of the racquet so theoretically, any prob not using a prince can swing faster with an o3. i gotta get outta this thread i was back to researching again.. sigh.. damn badmiton results everywhere to skim thru
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King of Aces
Banned
It created great spin but it had no power.
VivalaVida
Banned
absolutely! I started a thread on this earlier this year. here it is http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3155765&postcount=1 the link is in there. Forward to around 8 min and 30 secs please and enjoy!those numbers were just a generalized summary of the facts i could find in 5 mins of searching. i have no doubts novak hit one 116, but it didnt show up when i searched under forehand fastest mph on google.
if you can find it, feel free to list a link
wangs78
Legend
If Nadal became righty (with same FH and BH just reversed, as you say) and had a better save, I think he would be in the top 5, but definitely not #1. I really think so.
deltox
Hall of Fame
thats an awesome forehand, wow, tons of pace.. but not to argue, just curious how one came up with its exact speed? i couldnt see the speed anywhere and they are speaking in another language so i cannot hear them saying it either.
egn
Hall of Fame
He developed the strong lefty forehand by playing lefty all those years.. if he stays righty I don't think his backhand is as powerful as his current lefty forehand or backhand..I could be wrong, but I imagine it is still top notch but not as effective.
35ft6
Legend
This depends on the angle, and, also, consider that the court is a finite space. More spin = more power in a lot of cases, just ask a ping pong player.
...he could DEFINITELY flatten it out though. Make no mistake about that. When Bruguera decided to flatten it out, he "hurt the ball" and "you won't see forehands hit bigger than that ANYWHERE" are two of the things I've heard coming out of McEnroe's mouth when Bruguera decided to let it out on the ball. INCREDIBLE racket head speed when he got angry and wanted to send a message with a shot. Bruguera's hit forehands as hard as any I've ever seen when he wanted to, just draw-dropping, crowd gasps for a second kind of power when he wanted to.
It's a mistake to think Bruguera only laid back defensively. He mixed it up more with the spins, power, and angles than Nadal. He would go for soft cutesy, finesse angles as a semi-regular mixup play in his baseline rallys. He would also make sure to periodically flatten it out big time every so often to keep opponents honest. Then he would also try to throw up HUGE moon balls the heights of which I've not seen ANY modern pro hit. I mean literally MOON balls where'd he just try to hit it as high as he possibly could with a minimum of pace, the kind of moon balls that'd make Arantxa proud, even envious. Then there was the standard hard and heavy Muster like baseline groundy. Bruguera gave opponents a wider array of DEGREE of spin than any player I've ever seen. His OPEN stance forehand for clay is also probably the best ever, once coined the "greatest clay court forehand ever" by Vilas. The reason is that it was an incredibly *efficient& yet effective shot on clay when he was pressed. He didn't have to necessarily wind up corkscrew style to get his forehand off the way Berasategui or Ferrero or Moya style "circle 8" forehands do. He'd just slide into shots and plant his racket foot parellel to the baseline, lean that incredibly slinky back of his back, and still be able to "whip it good" (remember that song? Catchy.). His forehand was like an accordion, basically the closest approximation to a tennis specialized, metal slinky basically. Also a very difficult shot to read, because it was so flick reliant. McEnroe said it best during the French final with Courier, Courier can't read where he's gonna go.
It was VERY unique technique, that I've not seen ANY other pro emulate. It's imo BY FAR one of the most ideosyncratic and difficult to emulate techniques there is. It's one of those strokes where it works for one player only, but wouldn't work for anyone else like Becker's INCREDIBLE deep knee bend and rocking motion on his serve, or Muster's incredibly MUSCLY way of standing on his backfoot and still able to rocket launch topspin ONE-handed backhands. Other people that would rip their shoulders out, you've got to be built like an ox to be able to get away with the way Muster would *routinely* against pro level pace and spin. Berasategui's INSANE wrist snap and ridiculously absurdly western grip on his forehand is another. Most players try to copy that and every ball they hit will land in the bottom of the net or they'll swing and miss completely or they'll frame the ball so violently they're wrist would feel like it's gonna fall off any minute.
Bruguera's forehand was optimized to slide into balls open stance in a way that no one else's ever has been. It was a shot that was specialized for clay, but imo, a poor adaptation on a firm surface for obvious reasons.
Bruguera played defensive more on average, but I've also seen him take the role of agressive baseliner too. He steamrolled Berasategui in the last set of their French final doing just that. Very defensive before that, and then bam he just turned it on and ran away with it.
I saw him play Byron Black on hard once, and realizing who he was playing, he recognized the best strategy was to just try and overpower him...so? That's what he did. He simply went into more of the Agassi mindset. He did have it in him, but he more so than most any top pro I've seen would fine tune how much spin vs. pace or finesse he was going to go for on a given day according to the opponent. Against Agassi on clay for example, he tried to mix in all of these things without a set pattern or rhythm to throw off Agassi's rhythm. It was to me a very obvious conscious decision. Against Muster, he'd just forget the finess and just get into a slug fest...unfortunately for him, Muster was ALWAYS in better shape than him and ALWAYS had better focus and concentration than him. It was a losing proposition almost every time because of that.
In terms of passes, the reason Bruguera was effective was because he was able to give net rushers so many different looks, angles, spins, and varying amounts of power.
Nadal's passes on the other hand are just straight up visciousness...however, we also don't see Nadal have to pass all that often either. We don't really know when it comes to passes anymore, it's almost not even a "category" or skillset or player attribute commentators even discuss anymore. Players don't come in like they used to, surfaces are much slower world-wide outside clay, and players certainly don't volley like Stich, Krajicek, Sampras, Henman, Edberg, Rafter, etc. anymore either. When Mardy Fish is considered a maestro at net, you stop to think, oh my gosh, that means if Rusedski and in her prime right now he'd be considered a McEnroe like "genius" at the net, lol.
Put it this way, the Bryans are very good volleyers. The Woodies are GREAT volleyers. Leander Paes is a GREAT volleyer, etc.
deltox
Hall of Fame
im completely confused?
so spin doesnt slow the ball down? i am to tired to look up a physic reference sheet, but i thought flat shots traveled faster all things being equal. the ball doesnt roll of the racquet instead it gets maximum area of contact.
sigh, i dunno anymore. to many opinions, not enough fact going on.
and if this is true, why do flat serve go 15-25% faster than top spin serves?
if you look at the videos linked here, monfils and djoker both hit very flat shots that are world record and a close second. i cannot find any topspin shots producing a pace near those.
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deltox
Hall of Fame
this i can definitely agree with. consistancy is the key to winning in any era of the game.
VivalaVida
Banned
if you pause the video or view it carefully at around 9.08 and 9.09 you can see the see graphic that says 187 kph. Keep your eyes peeled you will see it.
sonicboi21
Banned
NadalFreak, you truly are an idiot. Federer's forehand is a topspin forehand. His RPM's are only 200 less than nadal's. Do your hw before writing stupid stuff
deltox
Hall of Fame
im blind lol i cannot see it anywhere.
35ft6
Legend
Yes you are. I said depending on the angle. In the context of tennis, which is what's being discussed here, If you can hit straight down, or from high enough, yes, hitting completely through the ball results in more power. But for groundstrokes from the baseline, hitting with spin offers more speed and power in most instances because the tennis court is a finite space. To hit it completely flat, you are limited to how fast you can make the ball go hitting it from the baseline from waist high height and still keep it in the court. But add spin to keep the ball inside the court, you can add more speed. What Fed and Nadal are great at is hitting a super spinny forehand that follows a flat shot trajectory so they get the best of both worlds: though not a perfectly straight line a shorter distance between points A and B, and enough spin to allow a lot of speed going from A to B.
A simpler way to think about spin allowing more power on groundstrokes is to imagine a short, knee high bouncing ball at the service line. If you hit it flat, you will have to bunt it, but if you generate a lot of top spin, you can murder the ball. Anyway, nobody hits completely flat. Even Connors hit with a bit of top spin or side spin. Backspin is also useful for keeping the ball in play. When discussing groundstrokes in tennis, flat is a relative term. Even when you see a winner in tennis, and the commentator talking about how the player flattened out the shot, you'll see the ball rotating with top spin.
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deltox
Hall of Fame
i understand what your saying now except backspin keeping the ball in play thing.
backspin causes the ball to float longer, thus making it more difficult to keep in play
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
Agreed, I find his topspin forehand very one dimensional. It always has topspin on it!
nadal for number1
Rookie
topspin forehand yeas flattest maybe not but is it the heaviest? id say yes
35ft6
Legend
Yeah, maybe there's no inherent benefit, but even though backspin causes pressure forcing the ball upwards, it seems to slow it down, too, so in my experience the net result is more control in terms of keeping the ball in the court.
King of Aces
Banned
LOL...what the hell else are you going to hit....a slice forehand???? The only other shot is flat....and virtually no one hits flat anymore....not even Roger Federer.
Djokovicfan4life
Legend
Respectfully disagree. He should vary his topspin forehand by mixing up the spins more often. Backspin can do wonders at times for the topspin forehand.
Federer_pilon
Professional
"1-1 - Nadal somehow turns defence into offence, setting up a killer 102mph forehand winner from well behind the baseline." according to this match report at http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/tennis/livematch/240554.html
If they reported this, I'm pretty sure they must have seen it on their TV screen or something. They didn't just come up with a number.
Yup, exactly. Backspin may float longer, but who takes the same swing on slice or a chip as they do on a "herculean effort" topspin shot? No one. Steffi's slice backhand is as gaudy as it got in terms of excessive swing, and yet even that was considerably more mild comapred to the full-fledged sledgehammer cracks she'd take at her forehand.
The chip forehand return is one of the safest, low-risk, no reward shots in the game. Just ask Bruguera who made a career out of doing nothing with it. Just stick your racket out with a slightly tilted face, and wala, you've got a pro technique "chip" return. Of course, the hande-eye coordination to get it in the right place at the right time, does require just a weee bit more skill.
Guys like Edberg and Sampras regularly chipped backhands in and scooted in behind them. Use your opponents pace to get the depth, use the underspin to give you time to scoot up close, conserve energy over the course of a long match because there's no swing or effort expended in chipping a return.
The chip or slice is one of the safest shots in the game, because the specific point to executing it well is to be able to take a nice, *controlled* "swing" at the ball. Since player don't try to masacre the ball on a slice, the chances of a mishit or something going wrong during the swing are GREATLY reduced = hence "safe shot". It's like playing tennis in a vacuum, you eliminate the variables. That = safe.
deltox
Hall of Fame
i must be weird because my slice backhands net themselves more than any of my other shots.. sigh another reason my game is the sux
atennisrand
Banned
It quite simply is the best at top spin but it is impossible to judge it as the all time greatest forehand ever. I also believe that with such a shoulder straining and violent take back and follow through action on his forehand will render the greatness of this stroke of Nadal's limited to working for a certain amount of years
King of Aces
Banned
Thats exactly what they said about Roddick and his serve.
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