Is Nikolay Davydenko an ATG?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Rafa24, Jun 17, 2017.

  1. Rafa24

    Rafa24 Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,420
    Location:
    16x Grand Slam Champion. Current World Number 1.
    WTF can't be compared to playoffs or a "superbowl" or any other postseason in sports. For it to actually mean something it would need to change locations and surfaces every year. As it is right now it's the equivalent of letting the warriors or patriots play all their finals and superbowl games at home. It lets players who thrive on indoor hard courts have a "home court" advantage.
     
  2. Sabratha

    Sabratha Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    21,121
    Hewitt won both his WTF trophies in a BO5 format. He then made another final in 2004, losing to Federer. That should have also been BO5 but due to rain they couldn't compete that long so they improvised.
     
  3. Rafa24

    Rafa24 Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,420
    Location:
    16x Grand Slam Champion. Current World Number 1.
    WTFs is every year. Olympics is once every 4. Sure there can be an anomaly and a random person can win such as davydenko winning WTF and runner up once while never making a slam final, but honestly that just highlights how little the other players try compared to slams for the most part.
     
  4. Sabratha

    Sabratha Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    21,121
    And LOL, it is quite a bit above a M1000 tournament. The Olympics however offer zero or 750 points at most yet they mean more. And because Djokovic cried we are meant to overrate them. At the end of the day, Rosset, meth Agassi and Leander Paes are all medalists in singles.
     
  5. Rafa24

    Rafa24 Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,420
    Location:
    16x Grand Slam Champion. Current World Number 1.
    Hewitts WTFs have more meaning since they wee BO5 just like the old masters 1000s BO5 finals. Has a grand slam ever changed away from a BO5 due to rain?
     
  6. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Messages:
    29,140
    Location:
    Weak era
    Right, gaze at the best tennis Olympian:

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Rafa24

    Rafa24 Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,420
    Location:
    16x Grand Slam Champion. Current World Number 1.
    It's not above a masters 1000. Delpo said his bronze meant more than his USO.

    A round robin tournament with EIGHT people is not over masters 1000s. Especially Indian wells with 128 players.
     
  8. Sabratha

    Sabratha Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    21,121
    The Olympics are a joke in tennis, just stop. Most players skipped it in favor of events like Montreal or Cincinnati yet we are to believe they mean more than the WTF? LOL.
     
    KINGROGER likes this.
  9. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Messages:
    29,140
    Location:
    Weak era
    Nicholas Massu never made it past the 3d round in slams.
     
    Hitman likes this.
  10. Sabratha

    Sabratha Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    21,121
    The 8 best players that are good enough to qualify and fight the entire season to get there.
     
    Rago and Hitman like this.
  11. Sabratha

    Sabratha Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    21,121
    Yet another guy who won an OG. Joins the likes of Rosset and Paes.
     
  12. Sabratha

    Sabratha Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    21,121
    Who cares? I'm just stating what happened.
     
  13. Rafa24

    Rafa24 Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,420
    Location:
    16x Grand Slam Champion. Current World Number 1.
    None of the contenders to actually win skipped it. And any that did skip it were afraid of Zika.
     
  14. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Messages:
    29,140
    Location:
    Weak era
    Historically yes (tennis wasn't even an Olympic sport again until 1988) but in modern times I'd say it gained value because top stars coveted the gold medal so much. Things change in sport across different eras, even all slams being of equal importance is a pretty recent thing.
     
  15. Sabratha

    Sabratha Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    21,121
    It's still not the be-all-and-end-all in tennis though IMO. Only since Rafa won in 2008 have players really cared.
     
  16. Sabratha

    Sabratha Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    21,121
    Why would Agassi withdraw? Guy could have won in 2004.
     
  17. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Messages:
    29,140
    Location:
    Weak era
    Sampras, by far the best player of the previous era only played it once before becoming #1, skipped it every time since.

    Agassi only played it once in his career (the year he won it), never showed up before or after.

    Tennis existed before 2008.
     
    KINGROGER likes this.
  18. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Messages:
    29,140
    Location:
    Weak era
    It's hard to rank it because it's such a unique event and all the emotions that get involved that come from representing one's country.

    However on the whole, I'd say Olympics increased in its value in the last decade or so while DC decreased (and will soon become a complete joke). That stars like Nadal, Novak, Fed, Murray etc. coveted the Gold Medal increased its importance IMO.

    On the whole It's very hard to compare Olympics to tennis-only events in my mind so opinions on its importance are bound to vary drastically.
     
    Sabratha likes this.
  19. KINGROGER

    KINGROGER Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2016
    Messages:
    5,545
    Lol golden slam. OK Fed has Basel and Halle slam.

    It's not meaningless to the players who are patriotic and love representing their country.

    However in tennis accomplishment terms it is below Slams > WTF > Masters 1000
     
  20. Username_

    Username_ Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2012
    Messages:
    683
    know why hes sooking bout the WTFs?
    cuz his boy hasnt won it
     
  21. thrust

    thrust Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,223
    Just when you think you have heard it all, someone comes up with a thread like this-LOL!
     
    fps likes this.
  22. Mainad

    Mainad Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2011
    Messages:
    29,521
    Location:
    Manchester, UK.
    Oooh, feeling a bit butthurt that Roger never won the singles, are we???;)
     
    Rafa24 likes this.
  23. Rafa24

    Rafa24 Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,420
    Location:
    16x Grand Slam Champion. Current World Number 1.
    Just like a few decades ago several top players often skipped the australian open. Times change and now they all go to all the slams. Other than Grandpa Fed skipping clay but thats just because he is old. I don't blame him for that.
     
  24. Rafa24

    Rafa24 Professional

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,420
    Location:
    16x Grand Slam Champion. Current World Number 1.
    Sampras barely cared about anything outside of slams.
     
  25. KINGROGER

    KINGROGER Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2016
    Messages:
    5,545
    Nah always preferred silver nayway and he won the doubles gold anyway beating the Bryan GOAT brothers doubles team.
     
    Mainad likes this.
  26. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Messages:
    29,140
    Location:
    Weak era
    And I agree with that, I even made a similar point in this thread in earlier posts. My goal is not to demean Olympics but to put things into perspective. I like Olympics (always have, despite everything) and am glad to see the tennis stars of this era taking it more seriously.

    However your point regarding WTF and Kolja still doesn't hold up, WTF champions list stacks up well against every tourney (even slams). Over almost 40 years it has 3 outliers (Kolja, Nalbandian and Corretja) and 2 out of 3 of them have played some amazing indoor tennis over their career (and Corretja had to go through Sampras in SF).

    Especially when it comes to people that have won it multiple times. Sampras, Lendl, Borg, Becker, McEnroe, Fed, Novak etc. mostly a group of bonafide ATGs.


    Not completely true, he did care about his YE#1 (his efforts in late 1998 prove that), WTF/YEC where he played some of his best career tennis matches (like the '99 F against Agassi which I consider an even better performance than '99 Wimbledon F) and was incredibly consistent (in his 11 showings there, he reached SF or better in 10 of them, won 5 titles) and also had that Herculean effort to win '95 DC against Russia on clay, his match against Chesnokov was one of the gutsiest performances in tennis I've ever seen, he couldn't even shake the opponent's hand as he collapsed and had to be carried off court:

     
    KINGROGER likes this.
  27. sportmac

    sportmac Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    1,747
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Yep, he would stand on the baseline and take all kinds of incoming missiles and send them back to open spaces. Great fun to watch.
     
    TheAssassin likes this.
  28. clayqueen

    clayqueen G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Messages:
    11,444
    Dominik Hrbaty is an ATG. He leads Nadal 3-1 and Federer 2-1 in their head-to-head encounters.
     
  29. the green god

    the green god Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    Messages:
    844
    Location:
    Out by the tidal pool
     
  30. ChaelAZ

    ChaelAZ Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2014
    Messages:
    1,904
    Location:
    Arizona
    Not even close.
     
  31. Shaolin

    Shaolin Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    8,841
    Location:
    Evil Lair
    Actually that makes him both the Clay GOAT and Overall GOAT.
     
  32. drm025

    drm025 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2013
    Messages:
    1,905
    I'm sure there aren't many looking at this thread seriously anymore but this davydenko-nadal H2H thing is just such a poor comparison to the H2H between ATGs. If we look at this logically, the main problem here is SAMPLE SIZE, and let me show you why.

    In the period of time between Miami 2008 and Doha 2010, Davydenko was very successful against Nadal (5-2 H2H, 1 win being a nadal retirement). In this same period of time, Davydenko went 2-1 against Federer with his 1 loss being a retirement after losing a 1st set tiebreak. We all know that Federer owned Davydenko, but not during this small (<2 year) time period. Outside of this time period, Fed was 18-0 against Davydenko and Nadal was 3-1 against him. This is the problem when we try to make sweeping statements based off the H2H between 2 players that never even played in a grand slam and played only 11 times. Even the argument about H2H being meaningless because Fed>Davy>Nadal>Fed and so on, falls apart when we look at it in context. Furthermore, Davydenko beat BOTH Fed and Nadal in the 2009 WTFs and 2010 Doha. Thats a THIRD of all his wins against Nadal being in tournaments that he won beating both Fed and Nadal. So again, SAMPLE SIZE....

    We might as well say that Davydenko pulled a Hrbaty from Miami 2008 - Doha 2010 with a winning record over both Nadal and Federer. They both won 3 slams in this time period, with Federer ranked number 1 both times he lost to Davy. If you want to add the 2010 AO where Fed beat Davy, then fine we can say Davy had an even H2H with federer, and now its over a time period when Fed won more slams than Nadal.

    Can we put this discussion to bed please?
     
  33. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2007
    Messages:
    7,479
    Location:
    Massachusetts
    one of the strongest to not win a major? I think you could argue that
    ATG...ummmm...NO
     

Share This Page