Is Novak Djokovic taking advantage of one of the weakest seasons in tennis history?
- Thread starter ARIARAIDEN
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AhmedD
Semi-Pro
No, not really, it wasn't a weak season to be honest. Djokovic is above the rest of field this season. He's been insane and looked invincible, there have been some close calls here and there though. There's no such think as a weak era when it comes to the men's division in my opinion. I mean, Soderling and Ferrer had a good first half this season. Some fresh blood is being pumped into the field with the uprising some youngsters have had. Fedal is just declining, it's not a weak field, it's just that of the 3 players that have the potential to bring it, can't. Federer is declining, hasn't played that well this season other than Doha and the FO. Nadal was initially playing well but found no solutions against Djokovic which has mentally screwed him coming into the second half. Murray has been a headcase nearly all year. Djokovic just happened to catch fire when his top challengers can't hold it together consistently, exception here being Nadal who was pretty close in some occasions. The rest of the field however has gotten a bit better, but a little too late, Djokovic was just too good at that point. I am taking into account the whole field of the Top 100, not just the Top 5 or 10
stormholloway
Legend
The argument is counterintuitive. If Novak weren't playing at such a high level, it would mean the field is stronger?
DRII
G.O.A.T.
Don't see the logic in that? What does it matter if they played the same player all the time? I guess from 2006-2008 Nadal did not dominate the French Open because he was always playing Federer?
Well, you really couldn't say one player is dominating, if another player is also constantly making it to the finals and won at least once or multiple times.
I would not say that Nadal has dominated Wimbledon in the last four years if he played Federer every single time in the final. However, Federer has not made the final the last 2 years, and the last Wimby he won - Nadal did not play...
DRII
G.O.A.T.
You're pretty much arguing that the top men are struggling somewhat, besides Nole...
TheBoom
Hall of Fame
Bender
G.O.A.T.
Actually no, given the unpopularity of Rafa on this forum, I'd say at least half of TTW will be accusing him of taking advantage of a weak era, citing the field's collective inability to beat a moonballing pusher topspin monkey.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
No, its not a counterintuitive argument. This is an expressly qualitative judgement on my part - regardless of Nole's record. The top guys are not playing as well as previous years, except for Nole.
This is not based on records or stats, its based on what I see on the tennis court right now. Federer is lacking in defense, Nadal has been serving poorly (besides at Wimbledon), struggling with his back-hand side and passing shots, Delpo is a shadow of his 2009 form, Murray is even more mentally fragile than usual, etc, etc...
Nole is the only one, of the top players, who has raised his level this year.
stormholloway
Legend
Nole has raised his level and Delpo isn't the same as he was in 2009, but aside from that I don't see much else. Nadal is still Nadal, and Federer is the same Federer we've seen the past couple of years. Djokovic is playing near-flawless tennis and I resent any arguments that try to minimize that.
disagree with the last post. i was actually looking for a thread that would discuss the poor tennis this year. I just dont think that the top players are playing well. rafa has lost confidence, fed has gotten slower, and lots of DF's, whats all this about. hope to see some quality tennis soon
stormholloway
Legend
Is it not possible that Djokovic's high quality can affect the confidence of his rivals?
C
celoft
Guest
Good for him.
MaiDee
Professional
100% agree
namelessone
Legend
It's hilarious that as soon as someone starts dominating, everybody screams weak era.
Yes, both Nadal and Fed didn't exactly have GOAT'ing moments this year, not to mention the other guys, but what Djokovic is doing is freaking historic.
I don't care how good or bad your competition is, if you lose only 1 match while playing 60, you are a goddam beast. That is all.
Yes, both Nadal and Fed didn't exactly have GOAT'ing moments this year, not to mention the other guys, but what Djokovic is doing is freaking historic.
I don't care how good or bad your competition is, if you lose only 1 match while playing 60, you are a goddam beast. That is all.
TennezSport
Hall of Fame
Correct.........
He won two Wimblys as you state but not consecutive, that word is used incorrectly.
They based on your reasoning then Fed has the honor as he won 6 of eight Wimblys and therfore dominated more than Rafa. Facts straight!
Cheers, TennezSport
He won two Wimblys as you state but not consecutive, that word is used incorrectly.
They based on your reasoning then Fed has the honor as he won 6 of eight Wimblys and therfore dominated more than Rafa. Facts straight!
Cheers, TennezSport
TennezSport
Hall of Fame
Correct.........
Double post
Double post
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DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
In other words, all subjective and meaningless.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
He won two Wimblys as you state but not consecutive. If you do not win in back to back years for whatever reason, it's not consecutive, that word is used incorrectly.
Nadal won two consecutive Wimbledons in the years which he played (2008, 2010). Pay attention to caveats!
They based on your reasoning then Fed has the honor as he won 6 of 9 Wimblys and therefore dominated more than Rafa. Facts straight!
Cheers, TennezSport
Yes, I understand, however i said in the last 4 to 5 years (not last 8 or 9 years). Pay attention...
DRII
G.O.A.T.
Not meaningless beeoch! However, every opinion is subjective in case you didn't know!
DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
Therefore meaningless since it can be easily countered with the opposite.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
I'm not trying to minimize any of Nole's achievements. I think the roll he is on is absolutely crazy! And congrats to him...
I'm just calling it how I see it. The top players are not playing as well this year besides Nole!
Mardy Fish has improved.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
If opinions are meaningless; then why do you post yours on this message board
...Contradictory much?
DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
If opinions are meaningless; then why do you post yours on this message board
Contradictory much?
I post mine to counter yours. Balance. The stats are the only truth.
Towser83
G.O.A.T.
What I said was "most of the people complaining about Novak"
Sure other people would be claiming Rafa as a weak champion, but the people having a go at Novak seem to be annoyed Rafa fans more than anyone else. I could be wrong. But last year as well as Nadal played he had little opposition.
He lost in Doha to Davydenko after winning the first set 6-0 - mentally he seemed weak. He then got outplayed by Murray in Australia.
In Indian wells and Miami Nadal failed to take advantage of Federer, Djokovic and Murray playing badly and losing early in both tournaments - after they all went out, both titles were his to lose but he got upset by an aging Ljubicic and Roddick, losing both from a set up and the Lujibicic one in a final set tiebreak.
To be honest at the clay tournaments he didn't face the people who had previously challenged him the most (Federer and Djokovic) didn't play well (Djokovic lost twice to Verdasco and then to Meltzer from 2 sets to love up at the french, Federer played badly losing even in Estoril before somehow making the Madrid final) and Nadal was being taken to two tiebreaks by Almagro who he crushed in 2008.
Again in Wimbledon, he faced first time finalist Berdych. Murray is a good player but on grass he can't seem to hurt Nadal, and Soderling was never really a huge threat to Nadal (he got one big win over Nadal, big deal, he never consistantly troubled him and after getting beaten at RG he was firmly back in his place)
On to hardcourts and Nadal loses a few matches before playing wonderful tennis to win the US Open - the highlight of his playing last year. Still he came up against a guy repairing his serve and a bit fatigued, but Nadal would have been tough for anyone that day.
After this he doesn't do anything great until reaching the final of the WTF, beating Murray (just about) Djokovic but falling to Federer.
I don't see how he was that great last season, but because he won a lot it was his best form ever! Now Novak is winning everything and unlike last year the two main rivals are making a lot of semis at least, but the field is apparently weaker. It doesn't add up at all.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
If you can only go by statistics and literal translation, you will be missing out on a lot in life!
DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
Posting meaningless opinions on a tennis forum has nothing to do with life, but it is rather indicative of where you're coming from for you to say that.
DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
Sure but those truths would be your 'truths'. Your truth NOT EQUAL truth.
D
Deleted member 77403
Guest
aphex
Banned
So funny that some people think they have a monopoly on the truth...
Usually these people have a very weak grasp of mathematics/statistics...
Gaudio2004
Semi-Pro
1. (italics) This is your opinion - how you "see" the tennis players level of play to be used as a judge of how weak/strong the field?
You are going to be laughed at if you believe to argue with someone like that, that's a joke of an opinion. Use some statistics to aid your cause - Federer has played better in 2011 than 2010, Nadal reached 5 MS finals this year in his first 5 attempts (never has he done that before, or anyone, apart from Djokovic, who also did it this year).
2. (bold) How can you determine how many finals Nadal would have made? Can you predict the future or the past? Do you understand tennis before it even happens?
No, so why make such a stupid point?
And the laughing argument continues - you use your "i just feel that the level of play is lower" qualitative statement as a reasoning of logic to explain for predicting Nadal's success
There is so much stupidity in that - it uses a self-reference, it's contradictory, it makes no logical sense!!
This is your opinion - and one that, funnily enough, no ex-pro players such as Pat Cash, Boris Becker, Tim Henman, John McEnroe, who have all played professional tennis (you have not) and have a much bigger insight to it than you; they OPPOSE your view and say it is a very strong era.
So Federer cannot be a better tennis player because he is a father?
Insane reasoning and stupidity at it's finest:
1) Unless you know Federer's personal life, which you do not, how can you determine what helps him or not? Perhaps having children motivates him even more to play better tennis!
2) "No matter how good you are" -> I'm afraid this is wrong as well in my view; see Federer has had the kind of success about 0.1% of all athletes in sport have had before the age of 27 or 28; he has been used to being extremely successful and very, very good as a tennis player; there are many things about the inevitable dropping off the rankings due to age that Federer is going to defy because of his huge talent.
Again giving your opinion - no insight to it, no explanation, no diagrams, no videos, no statistics to aid it either.
"There is a purple elephant with 9 legs"
This is the equivalent of your opinion - it's allowed in a democratic world where we take stupidity, but it's also laughed at.
Speculation that many ex-tennis professionals have stated on (high level of play).
Not having any knowledge of how to think or argue seems to be your speciality. I have rarely seen such stupidity in using a qualitative statement used as a logical explanation for a predictive fallacy -> the stupidity almost hurt me.
Why? Why are they not dominant if they face the same player in every final?
So you cannot prove it - it is just your opinion, and it's a poorly reflected opinion with no research done behind it. Invalid and boy oh boy it's one of the worst arguments for the "weak era" I have ever seen.
That is because Djokovic has improved immensely and is making them look "weak", or to the more stupid among us, he is making them look as if they are dropping their level of play.
Some knowledge of chaos theory, dynamical systems or sport psychology is needed to understand how Nadal can look worse this year than last year simply by Djokovic improving immensely and giving the impression that Nadal has dropped his level, and not SOLELY Djokovic raising his level.
It requires logical thinking - and your posts have none of it whatsoever!
If opinions are meaningless; then why do you post yours on this message board
Contradictory much?
In the hope of learning someone about tennis and discussing it in a meaningful manner; your posts gives no knowledge of tennis and reeks of ignorance, stupidity and an inability to think properly and logically.
[p.s. In all 3 years of being here; this is stupidity at infinity, there is no hope for some people]
DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
^^^^ excellent ownage! He/she just doesn't understand the difference between subjective and objective.
He/she just doesn't understand the difference between subjective and objective.
DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
Yeah, LOL. Like you're going to miss THEIR hidden meanings and delusional 'truths'. Some of these people are just comical.
D
Deleted member 77403
Guest
^^^^ excellent ownage!
It was indeed an epic post, but not one without substance.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
Ridiculous post as usual! I certainly do not feel i have a monopoly on the truth, I'm just stating my opinion.
And if your grasp on mathematics is so high, than I suggest you apply it in your native land and perhaps add to a possible solution to you all's very big problems...
DRII
G.O.A.T.
DjokovicForTheWin
Banned
Thank you for this most relevant post.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
I agree completely. Expect numerous immature responses!
aphex
Banned
Towser83
G.O.A.T.
It's never meant to add up!
Very good post though.
Thanks Hitman.
Actually going tournament by tournament you can see last year Nadal had an equal or better chance to do what Djokovic has done this season.
AO - Both had a chance to win title by defeating the top 4 combo of Murray/Federer. Nadal fell at the quarterfinal stage, Djokovic beat both in straight sets and beat Berdych as well for good measure.
IW - With Federer and Djokovic going out early and Murray in the quarters the title was Nadal's to win, but he blew a set lead and fell in the final set TB. By contrast Djokovic beat Federer and Nadal back to back.
Miami - Fate was calling to say "Rafa, you want to IW/Miami double?" But maybe Nadal wasn't at home. Fed, Djoko and Murray all out early, but Nadal falls to Roddick after leading by a set. Djokovic meanwhile has to beat Nadal in the final, after destroying Mardy Fish who has played very well this year.
Madrid/Rome - Here both players were successful. However Djokovic had to defeat Nadal twice who had had a good warm up in Monte Carlo, Nadal last year won Monte Carlo and Rome without playing either Federer or Djokovic who had obviously been the best players on clay after Nadal and given him his biggest tests on the surface (winning a few masters on clay too). Djokovic had to play the best clay courter, Nadal didn't even play 2nd or 3rd best. Even when Nadal played Fed in madrid, this was the guy who was losing in Estoril. Come the French Open, if only Federer had fallen in the quarters this year like he did last year! Novak got unlucky here.
Wimbledon - Nadal did well to beat Soderling and Murray, Berdych is a good player too but in a first final of a major. But beating Tsonga the way he was playing and then Nadal is just as hard. Tsonga is the only guy to have beaten Fed, Nadal, Djoko and Murray in majors, so he is every bit as good as Soderling.
Canada - Only here I can say Djokovic had an easier time. Even then he had a nightmare draw which just didn't happen to pan out like it could have. and Davydenko is not an easy guy to face first match back after Wimbledon and fisrt match on hardcourt in several months. He beat Nadal THIS year in straight sets. Novak's eventualy draw at canada was like Nadal's last year at IW/Miami. Difference is Novak won.
What we are seeing are arguments like this.
Players doing terribly - weak season
players doing well - opposistion weak, hence weak season.
I'm curious, if Nadal's success at making finals means the field is weak, then last year him winning all those titles must mean last year was REALLY weak? He would never have won the US Open if the field wasn't weak! The evidence is irrefutable.
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aphex
Banned
Thanks for confirming you are only stating your opinion (a useless one at that).
We are discussing facts here, so you should probably stay out of the conversation.
Btw, Mathematics#Economics, dumbo.
DRII
G.O.A.T.
Weak comparisons and therefore weak arguments. Like I and others have said; competition was stronger last year at the top.
You constantly avoid what others are saying and misconstrue their words. It wasn't Nadal's success in making finals that means the current field is weak - its Nadal making it to the finals giving his form this year that conveys that this year's field is weaker than last year.
I can't say the same for Nole making so many finals, because he is playing much better than last year. Try and comprehend the difference or continue to make false arguments!
DRII
G.O.A.T.
You don't need me to confirm that what I post is an opinion, it should be obvious. But, given your level of cognition i can see why it has to be explained to you!
And if you really believe that mathematics has nothing to do with economics then its quite clear why you're in the situation you're in...
aphex
Banned
I didn't say it has nothing to do with it, I said they're different fields.
But, given your level of cognition i can see why it has to be explained to you!
Btw, where are you from?
DRII
G.O.A.T.
I didn't say it has nothing to do with it, I said they're different fields.
But, given your level of cognition i can see why it has to be explained to you!
Btw, where are you from?
Don't worry about it!
Try and use some deductive reasoning (if thats possible) and you should figure it out...
Towser83
G.O.A.T.
The form was not stronger at the top last year. In fact your whole argument rests on the form being stronger FURTHER DOWN, as you keep saying Nadal getting to the finals proves this year is weaker - well in getting to the final he isn't coming up against top players that often, it's the top players he's going to meet IN the final. The form at the top is stronger this year because they're actually going deep rather than losing early leaving Nadal the only only top player standing, like last year. Nadal for large parts of the year was the only strong player that was not having serious problems with their game. The fact that Berdych made a major final, that Verdasco and Ferrer contested 2 masters finals on clay, that Roddick and Ljubicic won masters titles tells you everything about last year
You can say his form is not good, but that's just your opinion. I have actual facts to back up mine. If Nadal was better last year why couldn't he win the IW/Miami double that was his by default? He blew matches (and titles) he should have won, he lost to Davydenko after winning the first set 7-6. But because he won a lot of stuff people forget this and imagine he was playing faultless tennis last year. Remember
Doha - lost to Davydeko 6-0 6-7 4-6
AO - lost to Murray 3-6 6-7 0-3
IW - lost to Ljubicic 6-3 4-6-6-7
Miami - lost to Roddick 6-4 3-6 3-6
Canada - lost to Murray 3-6 4-6
Cinci - lost to Baghdatis 4-6 6-4 4-6
Bangkok - Lost to Garcia Lopez 6-2 6-7 3-6
Tokyo - lost to Monfils 1-6 5-7
Shanghai - lost to Meltzer 1-6 6-3 3-6
Most of these losses were shocking and either featured him throwing away a chance to win or getting dominated.
I've spelled out tournament by tournament how Nadal had mainly easier chances last year to win everything Djokovic has won this year, ignore it if you like but I've provided strong evidence, and people have not provided evidence of how this season is weaker.
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5555
Hall of Fame
namelessone
Legend
The form was not stronger at the top last year. In fact your whole argument rests on the form being stronger FURTHER DOWN, as you keep saying Nadal getting to the finals proves this year is weaker - well in getting to the final he isn't coming up against top players that often, it's the top players he's going to meet IN the final. The form at the top is stronger this year because they're actually going deep rather than losing early leaving Nadal the only only top player standing, like last year. Nadal for large parts of the year was the only strong player that was not having serious problems with their game. The fact that Berdych made a major final, that Verdasco and Ferrer contested 2 masters finals on clay, that Roddick and Ljubicic won masters titles tells you everything about last year
You can say his form is not good, but that's just your opinion. I have actual facts to back up mine. If Nadal was better last year why couldn't he win the IW/Miami double that was his by default? He blew matches (and titles) he should have won, he lost to Davydenko after winning the first set 7-6. But because he won a lot of stuff people forget this and imagine he was playing faultless tennis last year. Remember
Doha - lost to Davydeko 6-0 6-7 4-6
AO - lost to Murray 3-6 6-7 0-3
IW - lost to Ljubicic 6-3 4-6-6-7
Miami - lost to Roddick 6-4 3-6 3-6
Canada - lost to Murray 3-6 4-6
Cinci - lost to Baghdatis 4-6 6-4 4-6
Bangkok - Lost to Garcia Lopez 6-2 6-7 3-6
Tokyo - lost to Monfils 1-6 5-7
Shanghai - lost to Meltzer 1-6 6-3 3-6
Most of these losses were shocking and either featured him throwing away a chance to win or getting dominated.
I've spelled out tournament by tournament how Nadal had mainly easier chances last year to win everything Djokovic has won this year, ignore it if you like but I've provided strong evidence, and people have not provided evidence of how this season is weaker.
Nadal won Tokio.
The only weird losses by Nadal HC standards are with Ljuba, Roddick(especially after dominating one set and a half of both those encounters), Baghdatis(had shots to win late in the match and he had never lost before against him) and GGL(converting 1 BP out of 26 LOL ).
Murray and Davydenko are naturally better HC'ers and in Shanghai he was tired as it was his third straight HC tourney and Melzer was in fine form. I have no idea how Nadal won that set with Melzer as he was pretty much terrible in that match.
What you are missing from your analysis is that Nadal didn't start 2010 well. In fact until the masterclass shown in the clay-grass season, he was without title for 11 months. So in the first third of 2010 he wasn't exactly terrific on confidence(he had some pretty big lapses) but he actually played better tennis at the start of 2010 than at the start of 2011. In 2010 he started low on confidence, in 2011 he had plenty of confidence after his great 2010 but had physical issues from the get-go, a flu in doha and a freak injury in the ferrer match. That's why you won't find any match in 2011 to match Nadal's playing level from early 2010(even when he was losing). Nadal's level in losing to Davy in Doha 2010 and Murray in AO(first 2 sets) surpasses most of his matches in 2011.
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