Is Novak Djokovic the most agile + flexible player ever in men's tennis?

Is Novak Djokovic the most agile + flexible player ever in men's tennis?

  • Yes

    Votes: 66 80.5%

  • No

    Votes: 16 19.5%
  • Total voters
    82
G

Ganstaz003

Rookie
I've personally never seen anybody move with the agility and display the flexibility that Novak Djokovic has shown during tennis matches in all my time that I've been watching tennis. I'll dare to even go as far as to say that he makes the likes of Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer look like stiff metals. As if they have cement / lead stuck on their feet, inhibiting their movement and range of motion. Novak Djokovic's success against Rafael Nadal even partly stems from the fact that he has superior flexibility and agility, enabling him to stretch for balls and change directions to get balls that Nadal can't. So considering he is even superior in this department to arguably the best athlete in tennis for the last 2 decades, then it's fair to say that Djokovic has been at the very least, number 1 for the last 2 and a half decades.

Has there been any other player from the earlier past era that rivals Djokovic in this department, if not surpass him?

Some of the closest players that rival Djokovic in my opinion are the likes of Lleyton Hewitt and Michael Chang.
 
kabob said:
I'd say tie between Grigor, Monfils and Djokovic.
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Nailed it. Monfils especially.

Nadal never struck me as being as 'flexible' as Nole, although he was fast as hell in defence and in terms of sheer foot-speed. Just a goddamn force of nature.

Murray is another strong contender- sort of like Djokovic, only a bit less good.

Federer was extremely fast and flexible at his peak too- but he didn't have the same bendy, rubbery joints (especially in the legs) as Nole does. He was a very 'elastic' sort of player though- he was rarely ever on a dead run, but had an unhurried style of defence that still somehow almost always got him to the ball. Very similar to Dimitrov now.

Overall, yes, Djokovic takes it.
 
kabob said:
I'd say tie between Grigor, Monfils and Djokovic.
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BlueClayGOAT said:
Nailed it. Monfils especially.

Nadal never struck me as being as 'flexible' as Nole, although he was fast as hell in defence and in terms of sheer foot-speed. Just a goddamn force of nature.

Murray is another strong contender- sort of like Djokovic, only a bit less good.

Federer was extremely fast and flexible at his peak too- but he didn't have the same bendy, rubbery joints (especially in the legs) as Nole does. He was a very 'elastic' sort of player though- he was rarely ever on a dead run, but had an unhurried style of defence that still somehow almost always got him to the ball. Very similar to Dimitrov now.

Overall, yes, Djokovic takes it.
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projectone7 said:
I would say Grigor is pretty flexible
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You guys can't overlook Lleyton Hewitt too. He was extremely agile and quick footed during his peak.

Rafael Nadal isn't really that quick. He is fast at running over a longer distance (over 20 or 50 or so meters). However, his ability to change directions and his speed for the first few steps(agility), along with his range of motion (flexibility) isn't quite as good. I doubt it's even better than some of the lesser players.
 
Ganstaz003 said:
You guys can't overlook Lleyton Hewitt too. He was extremely agile and quick footed during his peak.

Rafael Nadal isn't really that quick. He is fast at running over a longer distance (over 20 or 50 or so meters). However, his ability to change directions and his speed for the first few steps(agility), along with his range of motion (flexibility) isn't quite as good. I doubt it's even better than some of the lesser players.
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That's what I said. Nadal is very fast in a straight line, but not as agile as a few of the others.
 
BlueClayGOAT said:
That's what I said. Nadal is very fast in a straight line, but not as agile as a few of the others.
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Exactly! His poor / atrocious return of serve compared to the likes of Novak Djokovic, Andy Murray and even Lleyton Hewitt or Roger Federer is evidence of his lack of agility and flexibility in comparison to those aforementioned players, which is pretty poor! Especially on fast surfaces is Nadal's return of serve a huge weakness. You're correct! Nadal's speed is mainly an advantage over a longer distance whilst running in a single direction / straight line.
 
I don't know if this is a fact or just a feeling I have. Maybe someone could check the stats on this. Rafa more than the other members of the Big 4 seems to have a tendency to be overwhelmed by big servers on fast courts. The RoS stats on this should shed some light. Probably also why he does so well on clay, apart from other factors- his relatively weak RoS is less of a liability on clay, and his less-than-stellar serve doesn't matter too much either. He can get rallies started and crush all comers with his forehand, consistency, and superb retrieval skills.
 
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There's a huge difference between flexible and being agile. They're two totally different things. Novak is almost surely the most "flexible," but countless players are as agile or more agile than he is: Chang, Noah, Monfils, Mecir, Borg, etc.

Agile denotes that a player can not only move quickly, but move effortlessly. Djoker's movement is incredible, but he never, ever looks effortless in anything he does on a tennis court. He often looks awkward or labored when hitting his shots or moving. His footwork has never been as great as Fed or even someone like Ferrer, both of him beat him hands down in agility.

For this sort of stuff, Djoker wins:
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article-2354842-1AA49819000005DC-138_634x423.jpg
 
BeatlesFan said:
There's a huge difference between flexible and being agile. They're two totally different things. Novak is almost surely the most "flexible," but countless players are as agile or more agile than he is: Chang, Noah, Monfils, Mecir, Borg, etc.

Agile denotes that a player can not only move quickly, but move effortlessly. Djoker's movement is incredible, but he never, ever looks effortless in anything he does on a tennis court. He often looks awkward or labored when hitting his shots or moving. His footwork has never been as great as Fed or even someone like Ferrer, both of him beat him hands down in agility.

For this sort of stuff, Djoker wins:
081d5880f3122878aa75f45898ab6e1d.jpg
article-2354842-1AA49819000005DC-138_634x423.jpg
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Nailed it.

To me, huge difference in watching Fed or Nishi and Novak.

Djoker often looks flat footed even though he's moving quickly and those pretzel shapes he twists into are really not that necessary. Never saw Fed have to turn into gumby to retrieve a ball.
 
smoledman said:
Will Gumbyovic return in 2018?
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Anything is possible but this past year has brought home to Djoker fans how fragile the footholds are at the top of the mountain. You gotta be healthy, motivated and on point with your game. At various times the past year Djoker has failed to check each of those boxes. Time will tell if he can get the ship righted. I think he needs to return not as 2015 captain consistency Djokovic but as aggressive shotmaking 2011 Djokovic if he wants a Fed like swan song. It's possible but I wonder if he grasps that or has a coach willing to be honest with him. If he returns trying to duplicate 2015s style he'all struggle. Here's hoping he comes back spitting fire like the aggressive groundstroke master he was in 2011.
 
Shaolin said:
So agile…

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That's a typical example of cherry picking. Everyone can have moments when they're off their game temporarily. What's important is the norm. The rare instances of someone being of their game isn't a norm.

How about you show Novak Djokovic's excellent consistent return of serves (which is where agility is required the most for)?

BeatlesFan said:
There's a huge difference between flexible and being agile. They're two totally different things. Novak is almost surely the most "flexible," but countless players are as agile or more agile than he is: Chang, Noah, Monfils, Mecir, Borg, etc.

Agile denotes that a player can not only move quickly, but move effortlessly. Djoker's movement is incredible, but he never, ever looks effortless in anything he does on a tennis court. He often looks awkward or labored when hitting his shots or moving. His footwork has never been as great as Fed or even someone like Ferrer, both of him beat him hands down in agility.

For this sort of stuff, Djoker wins:
081d5880f3122878aa75f45898ab6e1d.jpg
article-2354842-1AA49819000005DC-138_634x423.jpg
Click to expand...

Actually, the actual definition of 'agility' is the ability to change directions as fast as possible without losing balance. This has nothing to do with 'effortlessness' in movement. One can look 'effortless' in their movement and still not be very agile. One can look not very 'effortless' and still be extremely agile. There aren't much correlations. What you're referring to is 'technical footwork' instead of agility.

However, there are huge correlations between agility and flexibility. To be agile, one MUST have some amount of flexibility to begin with (especially in the hip area). One can't be stiff or inflexible and yet be agile. The most agile people have one thing in common: they all have flexible hips. Thus, the most agile players are usually more flexible than the less agile players.

Also, the return of serve is the area where agility is tested the most. In that regard, Djokovic has nearly everyone in tennis beat. One can't be a good returner of serve without having good agility.
 
Ganstaz003 said:
That's a typical example of cherry picking. Everyone can have moments when they're off their game temporarily. What's important is the norm. The rare instances of someone being of their game isn't a norm.

How about you show Novak Djokovic's excellent consistent return of serves (which is where agility is required the most for)?



Actually, the actual definition of 'agility' is the ability to change directions as fast as possible without losing balance. This has nothing to do with 'effortlessness' in movement. One can look 'effortless' in their movement and still not be very agile. One can look not very 'effortless' and still be extremely agile. There aren't much correlations. What you're referring to is 'technical footwork' instead of agility.

However, there are huge correlations between agility and flexibility. To be agile, one MUST have some amount of flexibility to begin with (especially in the hip area). One can't be stiff or inflexible and yet be agile. The most agile people have one thing in common: they all have flexible hips. Thus, the most agile players are usually more flexible than the less agile players.

Also, the return of serve is the area where agility is tested the most. In that regard, Djokovic has nearly everyone in tennis beat. One can't be a good returner of serve without having good agility.
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Shaolin's a huge Djokovic hater so I wouldn't pay much attention to anything he/she has to say where Novak is concerned. ;)
 
Djokovic2011 said:
Shaolin's a huge Djokovic hater so I wouldn't pay much attention to anything he/she has to say where Novak is concerned. ;)
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I gathered that much! One can't be one of the best returners in the world whilst not being one of the most agile players in the world at the same time. In fact, the best returners of serve are also some of the most agile tennis players. All top returners have one thing in common: they are all extremely agile.
 
Best mover - which is what the OP topic is getting at - Djokovic is certainly on the short list for

Flexibility, certainly.
Agility, probably not

Ganstaz003 said:
Actually, the actual definition of 'agility' is the ability to change directions as fast as possible without losing balance. This has nothing to do with 'effortlessness' in movement. One can look 'effortless' in their movement and still not be very agile. One can look not very 'effortless' and still be extremely agile. There aren't much correlations. What you're referring to is 'technical footwork' instead of agility.
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I have to partially disagree with this

When I think of "agility" the first thing that comes to mind is a cat - and the effortlessness of the movement is a significant part of it. Google defines agility as the - "ability to move quickly and easily"

And the 'without losing balance' part of the definition you've given... I think that implies "effortlessness"... what do you think? I haven't seen anyone slip and tumble as often as Djokovic

Djokovic is as good a mover as there has been, but I don't think he's effortless of movement (that's not a criticism - being a good mover is important, the type of movement less so)


Ganstaz003 said:
Also, the return of serve is the area where agility is tested the most. In that regard, Djokovic has nearly everyone in tennis beat. One can't be a good returner of serve without having good agility.
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I think this is a bit misleading. The specific part of the return where Djokovic is supreme is in punching balls back with power... and that's more about hand-eye-coordination and clean-hitting, like Agassi (who few would say is particularly agile or flexible)

The part that has to do with agility is reaching the near un-reachable balls and somehow getting it back. Djokovic is good at this too... but not the best. Murray, among his contemporaries, is better I think and Hewitt also. Monfils is another

---

As good as a mover as there's been, Novak Djokovic... certainly the most flexible player I've seen... but probably not the most agile
 
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Novak definitely has the best flexibility. He can reach balls that no-one else can without moving.
Federer has the best footwork easily. He's always in the right place to hit his shots to begin with.

Nadal has the best footspeed of the three - at least back in his prime.
 
Waspsting said:
Best mover - which is what the OP topic is getting at - Djokovic is certainly on the short list for

Flexibility, certainly.
Agility, probably not



I have to partially disagree with this

When I think of "agility" the first thing that comes to mind is a cat - and the effortlessness of the movement is a significant part of it. Google defines agility as the - "ability to move quickly and easily"

And the 'without losing balance' part of the definition you've given... I think that implies "effortlessness"... what do you think? I haven't seen anyone slip and tumble as often as Djokovic

Djokovic is as good a mover as there has been, but I don't think he's effortless of movement (that's not a criticism - being a good mover is important, the type of movement less so)




I think this is a bit misleading. The specific part of the return where Djokovic is supreme is in punching balls back with power... and that's more about hand-eye-coordination and clean-hitting, like Agassi (who few would say is particularly agile or flexible)

The part that has to do with agility is reaching the near un-reachable balls and somehow getting it back. Djokovic is good at this too... but not the best. Murray, among his contemporaries, is better I think and Hewitt also. Monfils is another

---

As good as a mover as there's been, Novak Djokovic... certainly the most flexible player I've seen... but probably not the most agile
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1) I understand google has many definitions to what 'agility' is. However, I was referring to the official sports definition of agility and that is the ability to change directions at speed whilst maintaining balance.

2) One can't be agile without having sufficient amount of flexibility (especially on the hips). Although one can be flexible and not be very agile (but that doesn't apply to Novak Djokovic but it may apply to certain yogis). Djokovic's consistent ability to reach for balls during returns of serves and on the defense proves his agility + flexibility.

3) My thread was about who has the best combination of flexibility and agility (hence flexibility + agility). So this thread should take into account all the players who had the best combination of both. Other attributes such as 50+ meter running speed isn't relevant.

4) 'Effortlessness' isn't that relevant to the official sports definition of agility. What you're referring to with 'effortlessness' is 'gracefulness' or 'elegance' in which the likes of Roger Federer will be on top if this what this thread was about, but it isn't. One may or may not look very effortless when moving, but if they can change directions whilst maintaining balance faster and better than other players, then they will have the best agility (irrespective of how effortless they look / appear). Even Gazelles are very agile (probably more agile than cats) but they don't appear as effortless with their movements as cats do. Cheetahs (a cat specie) are faster than gazelles in straight line sprints but not as agile.

5) Return of serve is as much about hand eye coordination as it is about agility. The ability to stretch and reach balls few others could during returns (which Novak Djokovic does) is a testament to agility / flexibility. However, the ability to strike the ball perfectly with the racket on the correct spot and returning the ball effectively to the opponent is about hand eye coordination. Novak Djokovic is one of the best in the former (agility & flexibility) whilst Andre Agassi and Roger Federer are two of the best in the latter (denoting hand eye coordination). Thus, the best returners need to have a combination of both of those attributes.
 
Ganstaz003 said:
Exactly! His poor / atrocious return of serve compared to the likes of Novak Djokovic, Andy Murray and even Lleyton Hewitt or Roger Federer is evidence of his lack of agility and flexibility in comparison to those aforementioned players, which is pretty poor! Especially on fast surfaces is Nadal's return of serve a huge weakness. You're correct! Nadal's speed is mainly an advantage over a longer distance whilst running in a single direction / straight line.
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"Poor/atrocious"? I don't think Nadal's return of serve is much worse than Federer's one. He broke many times Federer's serve in the AO final 2017, so has he done in the past several times with Federer and Djokovic. His main problem is the serve, even more than the return. His serve is extremelly weak compared to the likes of Federer, Dimitrov, Kyrgios, Raonic, etc. Even Djokovic has a better serve than Nadal.
 
Ganstaz003 said:
1) I understand google has many definitions to what 'agility' is. However, I was referring to the official sports definition of agility and that is the ability to change directions at speed whilst maintaining balance.

2) One can't be agile without having sufficient amount of flexibility (especially on the hips). Although one can be flexible and not be very agile (but that doesn't apply to Novak Djokovic but it may apply to certain yogis). Djokovic's consistent ability to reach for balls during returns of serves and on the defense proves his agility + flexibility.

3) My thread was about who has the best combination of flexibility and agility (hence flexibility + agility). So this thread should take into account all the players who had the best combination of both. Other attributes such as 50+ meter running speed isn't relevant.

4) 'Effortlessness' isn't that relevant to the official sports definition of agility. What you're referring to with 'effortlessness' is 'gracefulness' or 'elegance' in which the likes of Roger Federer will be on top if this what this thread was about, but it isn't. One may or may not look very effortless when moving, but if they can change directions whilst maintaining balance faster and better than other players, then they will have the best agility (irrespective of how effortless they look / appear). Even Gazelles are very agile (probably more agile than cats) but they don't appear as effortless with their movements as cats do. Cheetahs (a cat specie) are faster than gazelles in straight line sprints but not as agile.

5) Return of serve is as much about hand eye coordination as it is about agility. The ability to stretch and reach balls few others could during returns (which Novak Djokovic does) is a testament to agility / flexibility. However, the ability to strike the ball perfectly with the racket on the correct spot and returning the ball effectively to the opponent is about hand eye coordination. Novak Djokovic is one of the best in the former (agility & flexibility) whilst Andre Agassi and Roger Federer are two of the best in the latter (denoting hand eye coordination). Thus, the best returners need to have a combination of both of those attributes.
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I mostly agree with you. Agility can be interpreted more than one way. One interpretation is "acrobatic" and another is "lithe". Now I would say some other players were agile and lithe but I would not say that they are acrobatic. I would say Monfils and Djokovic are acrobatic, and Federer is lithe. Still, both are considered agile. Monfils is agile but not as flexible whereas Djokovic could be described as both. I wouldn't say Agassi was particularly agile though. I think he had this great innate hand-eye coordination and was a great striker of the ball (maybe the best as far as baseliners go) but not particularly flexible or agile in movement.
 
Or you could say Federer's agility and anticipation allows him to get to as many balls as Djokovic with his 'gumby' routine. End result - the same, but Djokovic elicits gasps at the contortions he puts his body through. Personally I prefer Federer's anticipation as something gasp-worthy, but eludes the average fan.
 
F.e., nobody is as good as Federer anticipating a short ball off a big shot he just hit and sneak to the net. I've seen him do it so often in the last decade that I just take it for granted, but I've yet to see Dimitrov do it much. Either you have that skill or you don't.
 
All joking aside, Djokovic indeed is the most flexible male player I've seen; it's allowed him to hit offensive shots from areas of the court which would normally only make for weak defensive responses.

His great returning ability is also partly due to the same.
 
Djoker has the court coverage, Fed has the footwork and Nadal has/had the foot speed.
Dimitrov only has the court coverage and foot speed. Footwork, idk about.
 
Djokovic is probably the most flexible, but for people in this thread to praise his need to be "gumby" makes no sense.

The reason Djokovic has to get into these weird (and dangerous) positions is because his shot preparation and anticipation have always been mediocre. If you anticipate better, you prepare earlier, and you don't need to do this kind of stuff.

It's probably my hugest knock on Djokovic's game. Late preparation and anticipation.
 
mightyrick said:
Djokovic is probably the most flexible, but for people in this thread to praise his need to be "gumby" makes no sense.

The reason Djokovic has to get into these weird (and dangerous) positions is because his shot preparation and anticipation have always been mediocre. If you anticipate better, you prepare earlier, and you don't need to do this kind of stuff.

It's probably my hugest knock on Djokovic's game. Late preparation and anticipation.
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You must be one hell of a tennis player. Where can I see you play?
 
mightyrick said:
Oh, so you need to be an expert tennis player to critique a professional? Really? What are we all doing here, then? Grow. Up.
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Donno man, you have string tension on mains, crosses and all in your sig so I thought you must be like a super pro or something.
 
nikdom said:
Donno man, you have string tension on mains, crosses and all in your sig so I thought you must be like a super pro or something.
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I used to have that a long time ago when I was more interested in Tips/Instruction and the gear sub-forums. But regardless, that doesn't really matter does it? Isn't there something more mature you should be doing than this? Like maybe unwrapping a cereal box toy and playing with it?
 
mightyrick said:
I used to have that a long time ago when I was more interested in Tips/Instruction and the gear sub-forums. But regardless, that doesn't really matter does it? Isn't there something more mature you should be doing than this? Like maybe unwrapping a cereal box toy and playing with it?
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Ah, the attitude.

Yeah, see now I know why you deemed yourself worthy of critiquing one of the best players ever in the manner you did. Pretty cocky aren't we?
 
Sport said:
"Poor/atrocious"? I don't think Nadal's return of serve is much worse than Federer's one. He broke many times Federer's serve in the AO final 2017, so has he done in the past several times with Federer and Djokovic. His main problem is the serve, even more than the return. His serve is extremelly weak compared to the likes of Federer, Dimitrov, Kyrgios, Raonic, etc. Even Djokovic has a better serve than Nadal.
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There is a HUGE disparity between Roger Federer's return of serve abilities compared to Rafael Nadal. So no, they aren't equal. There is a reason why Roger Federer is able to LITERALLY touch the baseline whilst returning serve (even against some of the most powerful servers). There's also a reason why Rafael Nadal has to stand a million miles behind the baseline when returning serve (even against some of the least powerful servers). What does that indicate? It indicates how atrocious, horrific and poor Rafael Nadal's hand eye coordination, reflexes and reaction times are. The guy has one of the worst hand eye coordination and reflexes I've ever seen from a double digit grand slam winner in men's tennis. Even whilst standing that far behind the baseline, he lacks the reflexes and hand eye coordination to return the serve of the likes of Gilles Muller? Yet, you're comparing his return of serve to Roger Federer's? Explain how Rafael Nadal even qualifies to be compared to Roger Federer in this department.

Returning Roger Federer's serve isn't that impressive (Federer has never been a powerful server). On grass and other fast surfaces, Nadal's atrocious hand eye coordination and reflexes get exposed to be below mediocre. It's almost as if the guy is as slow as a turtle somehow in the reflex department.

Also, I don't believe in Rafael Nadal's 'weak serve' myth. Nadal has one of the best serve + forehand combination on the men's tour. In other words, that combination allows him to win more free points than many other players. Even Novak Djokovic doesn't have such weapons where he is able to win as many free points because of that. He purposefully serves the way he does so that he can follow up with the forehand on the next shot, which is practically as good as an unreturned serve.
 
NoleFam said:
I mostly agree with you. Agility can be interpreted more than one way. One interpretation is "acrobatic" and another is "lithe". Now I would say some other players were agile and lithe but I would not say that they are acrobatic. I would say Monfils and Djokovic are acrobatic, and Federer is lithe. Still, both are considered agile. Monfils is agile but not as flexible whereas Djokovic could be described as both. I wouldn't say Agassi was particularly agile though. I think he had this great innate hand-eye coordination and was a great striker of the ball (maybe the best as far as baseliners go) but not particularly flexible or agile in movement.
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Exactly! One can't be agile unless they have sufficient amount of flexibility in their hip area. The actual definition of agility which I was referring to was the ability to change directions at speed, whilst maintaining balance. In that regard, very few people are Novak Djokovic's equal. The only other players who rival Djokovic are the likes of Lleyton Hewitt (at his peak), David Ferrer and etc. However, Djokovic has arguably the best flexibility + agility combination of any player I've ever seen.
 
Difficult question to answer, because I don't think he's the most agile but he is probably the most flexible. The mutually inclusive question leaves me hanging, I'm afraid. If agility includes changing direction then Peak Fedal are right up there. At times they changed direction on a dime, Borg probably even more so. If we're focusing more on speed then Chang, Monfils, Borg and a bunch of others would be rated more highly in this regard.
 
TearTheRoofOff said:
Difficult question to answer, because I don't think he's the most agile but he is probably the most flexible. The mutually inclusive question leaves me hanging, I'm afraid. If agility includes changing direction then Peak Fedal are right up there. At times they changed direction on a dime, Borg probably even more so.
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It's about the combination of agility and flexibility (hence I wrote agile + flexible).

Also, Federer was definitely agile during his peak. Nadal, not so much. He's always seemed like a stiff / tensed player lacking range of motion. Nadal had fast running speed linearly, but wasn't that quick at changing directions. Hence: his poor / atrocious return of serve.
 
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