Is Novak Djokovic the most agile + flexible player ever in men's tennis?

[Sport]

All the evidence seems to suggest that Rafael Nadal has the worst agility compared to Andy Murray, Novak Djokovic and Roger Federer. His appalling return of serve on fast surfaces relative to those aforementioned players is one of many evidence as to why his agility is inferior.

Nadal is obviously a better returner than Federer. Nadal is one of the greatest returners of all time (a top 10 returner of all time). Overall, he is the third greatest returner of his generation only behind Djokovic and Murray.

Federer is a relatively bad returner (in comparison with his powerful serve). In fact, that is one of the biggest weaknesses of his game. He is the worst returner of the Big 4. Both Murray and Djokovic are better returners than Federer on every surface. Nadal is a better returner than Federer both on clay and hard courts.

The Return Rating is measured by considering these 4 factors: 1) % 1st Serve Return Points Won, 2) % 2nd Serve Return Points Won, 3) % Return Games Won and 4) % Break Points Converted.

Nadal is the best returner of all time on clay, while Federer is not even top 60:

https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/return-games-won/all/clay/all/

Nadal is also the 12th greatest returner of all time on hard courts, while Federer is not in the top 30:

https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/return-games-won/all/hard/all/

Federer is the 37th best returner of all time on grass, while Nadal is on the 53th position:

https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/return-games-won/all/grass/all/

So Federer is only a better returner than Nadal on grass. In addition, Nadal is in the top 15 of best returners of all time on 2 surfaces (hard courts and clay), while Federer is not top 15 on any single surface.

P.S.: Stats are the only way to be objective. No link to stats, no credibility.

 

[Deleted member 763024]

Agile, flexible, contortionist whatever...

Novak is just incredible. Best baseline game and ROS I’ve ever seen. He setting the new bar fo sho

And I was an Agassi fan before Roger.

 

[BlueB]

The Return Rating is measured by considering these 4 factors: 1) % 1st Serve Return Points Won, 2) % 2nd Serve Return Points Won, 3) % Return Games Won and 4) % Break Points Converted.

This sounds like the rating for the best return game, not necessarily the best return itself...
Surely, the % of total returned serves would be most indicative stat.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

 

[Sport]

This sounds like the rating for the best return game, not necessarily the best return itself...
Surely, the % of total returned serves would be most indicative stat.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

All the stats of the return rating are relevant factors to consider, none of them is more relevant than the others IMO.

 

[upchuck]

People think because Djoker twists himself into these shapes that he's more agile or a better mover, none of which is true. He has average footwork and because of this often hits shots in awkward positions. Doing splits on a court isn't needed unless you can't get to the ball, Nonak uses it on routine shots to make up for lack of footwork and preparation.

Which is why no one (viewer or commentator) has ever said his game is effortless (same with Murray and Nadal) the way they for Fed and some other players who were obviously more talented.

This is, of course, wrong. The reason Djokovic ends up in awkward situations is because he's not an ultra-aggressive player like Federer so he ends up playing defence more than Fed does. That's all. He's also incredibly efficient with his movement.

 

[BlueB]

All the stats of the return rating are relevant factors to consider, none of them is more relevant than the others IMO.

Why then skip the most obvious one?

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk

 

[lud]

One of,yes.
However,I think Dimitrov is even more

 

[Mainad]

Is Novak Djokovic the most agile + flexible player ever in men's tennis?

Elastic Man is certainly up there:

 

[RaulRamirez]

I've personally never seen anybody move with the agility and display the flexibility that Novak Djokovic has shown during tennis matches in all my time that I've been watching tennis. I'll dare to even go as far as to say that he makes the likes of Rafael Nadal and Roger Federer look like stiff metals. As if they have cement / lead stuck on their feet, inhibiting their movement and range of motion. Novak Djokovic's success against Rafael Nadal even partly stems from the fact that he has superior flexibility and agility, enabling him to stretch for balls and change directions to get balls that Nadal can't. So considering he is even superior in this department to arguably the best athlete in tennis for the last 2 decades, then it's fair to say that Djokovic has been at the very least, number 1 for the last 2 and a half decades.

Has there been any other player from the earlier past era that rivals Djokovic in this department, if not surpass him?

Some of the closest players that rival Djokovic in my opinion are the likes of Lleyton Hewitt and Michael Chang.

There's speed, agility and flexibility, and I think Novak combines the three better than any player I've ever seen. Combined with his racquet skills and other attributes, it explains why he's one of the GOATs. His slinky-like flexibility reminds me of the great Czech goaltender Dominik Hasek.

 

[abmk]

most flexible ? yes.
most agile ? no.

 

[TheFifthSet]

Nadal is obviously a better returner than Federer. Nadal is one of the greatest returners of all time (a top 10 returner of all time). Overall, he is the third greatest returner of his generation only behind Djokovic and Murray.

Federer is a relatively bad returner (in comparison with his powerful serve). In fact, that is one of the biggest weaknesses of his game. He is the worst returner of the Big 4. Both Murray and Djokovic are better returners than Federer on every surface. Nadal is a better returner than Federer both on clay and hard courts.

The Return Rating is measured by considering these 4 factors: 1) % 1st Serve Return Points Won, 2) % 2nd Serve Return Points Won, 3) % Return Games Won and 4) % Break Points Converted.

Nadal is the best returner of all time on clay, while Federer is not even top 60:

https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/return-games-won/all/clay/all/

Nadal is also the 12th greatest returner of all time on hard courts, while Federer is not in the top 30:

https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/return-games-won/all/hard/all/

Federer is the 37th best returner of all time on grass, while Nadal is on the 53th position:

https://www.atpworldtour.com/en/stats/return-games-won/all/grass/all/

So Federer is only a better returner than Nadal on grass. In addition, Nadal is in the top 15 of best returners of all time on 2 surfaces (hard courts and clay), while Federer is not top 15 on any single surface.

P.S.: Stats are the only way to be objective. No link to stats, no credibility.

This has been addressed so many times, in fact I've specifically refuted you on this several times.

No, Nadal is not a better returner on quicker surfaces.


See here:

Nadal’s ace percentage against is the highest of the big 4 (despite a disproportionate amount of those matches being played on clay) and his % of return games won is the lowest on glass.

On HC, his return games won is third lowest out of the big four. Only Federer’s is lower. But look what happens when you compare the two against the top 5 and 10:

Top 5
Federer 21.1% over 169 matches
Nadal: 18.8% over 62 matches

Top 10
Federer 22.9% over 313 matches
Nadal 20.3% over 127 matches

The long and short of it is that Nadal frequently wins ‘gimme’ (sub-50 ranked opponents) matches on HC by more lopsided scorelines than Federer does, and thus has better overall return stats. But adjusting for competition, Federer’s return is clearly better on HC...and on grass such an adjustment is not even necessary, as his % of return games won is already higher, 25.2%-23.8%.

Murray and Djokovic both have higher rgw on grass and HC, against the field
AND top 5/10 by far.

Nadal does indeed win an extraordinary % of return games across all surfaces...but his return game is most efficient on the one surface that places little importance on the return as a stand-alone shot.

Nadal, in general, isn't really a better returner than Federer on hard courts, particularly against top opponents.

Career break% against the top 10 on HC:

Federer: 24.3%
Nadal: 20.4%

And against the top 5:

Federer: 22.1%
Nadal: 18.9%

Over hundreds of matches, that's an absolutely enormous edge. Nadal was indeed better in 2011 though; 21.5% and 23.2% against the top 10 and 5 as opposed to 20.4% and 18.9% for Federer. Keep in mind that these rates would be heavily influenced by their respective matches against Djokovic at the USO, since the overall sample size is so small. There's also no evidence to suggest that Nadal returns Djokovic better than Federer does on HC, plenty to the contrary in fact (19.9%-15.4% -- Federer and Nadal's respective % of return games won against Djokovic on HC). As for who returned better in that years Open specifically, well, Nadal won 40.8% of his return games compared to 36.6% for Federer...but, excluding their matches w/Novak, it was 46.3%-42.9% for Federer. All in all, I think @abmk is right to say that the gap between the two in return game on HC is, at the very worst, negligible. I'd go even further and argue that Federer's return game on HC is CLEARLY better.

That said, I do agree that Djokovic was slightly more devastating in the final than the semi. He was a little loose on serve, but that may have been because he wasn't serving with the same urgency. He got into a mode where he was breaking Nadal seemingly at will.

(numbers are different as post dates are different)

Nadal’s advantage on HC is found in the early rounds, against opponents that both Fed and Nadal are mortal locks to beat. You’ll find that the higher up the rankings you go, the bigger Fed’s lead is. At the end of the day (speaking loosely, but rooted in reality), does it make much of a difference that Nadal is beating 100th ranked players 6-1, 6-1 rather than the 6-3, 6-4 scorelines you’re likelier to see from Fed against the very same players? I fail to see how, and for that reason I’d put Fed ahead by quite a bit because his advantage rears it’s head in matches they are actually in danger of losing.

 

[3lite]

There's speed, agility and flexibility, and I think Novak combines the three better than any player I've ever seen. Combined with his racquet skills and other attributes, it explains why he's one of the GOATs. His slinky-like flexibility reminds me of the great Czech goaltender Dominik Hasek.

Novak didn't get flexible until 2010.

 

[Your Hero]

I thought it was Isner.

 

[Enga]

Novak is definitely the most flexible. The Big 4 are all agile in their own ways though.

 

[smoledman]

Novak kind of needs to be that flexible since he insists on playing defensive minded tennis. Federer chose to be more attacking since day 1, hence less emphasis on flexibility and more on perfect timing of the strike.

 

[Rosstour]

Novak is agile and flexible but not graceful or fluid.

 

[RF-18]

Agile, flexible, contortionist whatever...

Novak is just incredible. Best baseline game and ROS I’ve ever seen. He setting the new bar fo sho

And I was an Agassi fan before Roger.

He set the bar long ago, and he keeps setting it to new heights. His first strike tennis (Serve and ROS, shots that sets the tone in the rallies is something never seen before). He is really the perfect player.

 

[Purplemonster]

What the? One thing is to support Federer, and the other thing is to make Federism a religion. Federer more flexible than Djokovic? Yeah sure. What will be next? Federer a better returner than Djokovic? Federer faster than Nadal? Federer with a better clay game than Nadal? Just ridiculous.

I wasn’t be serious. I just wanted to write a post like a Federer fan would.

 

[skaj]

Djokovic is the best athlete ever in tennis. Federer has the best mind ever. Rafa has the best pain tolerance ever.

amazing athlete, but the best ever? for you, what qualities a great athlete needs to have?

similar, what do you consider "mind" is in tennis context?

 

[skaj]

Djokovic is definitely the most flexible male player of all time, he can reach balls that other pros who have been playing all their life wish they could emulate.

Combined with his footspeed which is only rivaled by nadal or monfils, he is an absolutely ridiculous ballchaser.

And as many others have said being agile and being flexible are two different things.

Nonetheless I think Novak is exceptionally agile and efficient on hard court. It's quite hard NOT to slip or stumble when you're trying to push off your legs and slide the way he does often.,
I do think that Novak's footwork could be better on clay or grass, but his game suits all surfaces so there isn't any need.

There are other players who are/were as flexible or more flexible. Paradorn Srichaphan is the most flexible I can think of. Even in the current field there is Monfils, and Dimitrov is pretty flexible.

Also foot speed, there were other players who were as fast or probably faster like Chang, Grosjean, Hewitt, Borg.