Is Novak Djokovic the most complete Tennis player in the open era?

OP, if you phrased the question "Is Djokovic the most unbeatable player when his game is fully on?" You may have had more of a debate. 'Most Compete Player' tag, undermines the most complete players...

You'll get the hang of it around here soon enough!
 
Dire_Wolf said:
I said on par, not better. It is marginal either way. Off clay you could even argue Djokovics is better. The thing is he doesn't just play ping pong with his forehand and wait for the error like Nadal. He takes it to the others. His FH return match point down uso2011 is the stuff of legend. Nadal would never play such a shot in that situation.
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Do you believe Djokovic's 2011 forehand is best in business so far?
 
Dire_Wolf said:
FO 2011 Federer match had extenuating circumstances. If not for the walkover by FF, Djokovic would have done better vs Federer. If FO is everything then Sampras cannot be a complete player as well? Lemme guess Agassi the most complete ever? Fact is he toyed with Nadal on clay this year and gave him a beating at Rome which has been a Nadal stronghold over the years. He beat a fully fit Federer on grass and should have closed that out in 4. Prime Nadal on clay and world number 2 Federer on grass in a year where Djokovic didn't even play that well. Djokovic is massively underrated by Fedal fans on this board it seems.
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Chico, is that you?
 
Dire_Wolf said:
FO 2011 Federer match had extenuating circumstances. If not for the walkover by FF, Djokovic would have done better vs Federer. If FO is everything then Sampras cannot be a complete player as well? Lemme guess Agassi the most complete ever? Fact is he toyed with Nadal on clay this year and gave him a beating at Rome which has been a Nadal stronghold over the years. He beat a fully fit Federer on grass and should have closed that out in 4. Prime Nadal on clay and world number 2 Federer on grass in a year where Djokovic didn't even play that well. Djokovic is massively underrated by Fedal fans on this board it seems.
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excuses yadda yadda yakkety yak excuses..:neutral: :)
 
One of the most complete, I would say. Not #1 complete.

He has everything you need in a player. Things he miss is flair and the net game, but all in all, definetly one of the most complete players I've seen. Barely any weaknesses except as I said above, his net game is subpar.
 
I am probably the minority, but I think there are more physically or technically complete players in the lower ranks than the top three. What separates the three above the others is the court IQ or presence.

FWIW - Fed, Nadal, and Djo all have weaknesses based on surface, conditions, and whatever. Personally I would give the nod to Fed as the most complete player if push came to shove, with Nadal right behind him, and Djo in third.
 
Sorry, I know it's off topic, but how do you report a double account or a previously banned user who just came back?

I suspect we might have a situation like this at hand here.
 
tennisfan87 said:
Sorry, I know it's off topic, but how do you report a double account or a previously banned user who just came back?

I suspect we might have a situation like this at hand here.
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lol :)on bottom left side of every poast you'll see a red triangle with an ! inside, click on that..you can send note to mods/tw staff.
 
2011 was not peak Nadal. 2010 was his last peak year, and maybe some of 2013.

In reality, Djokovic is not more complete than Federer, and in terms of peak level Federer wins as well.
 
Firstservingman said:
2011 was not peak Nadal. 2010 was his last peak year, and maybe some of 2013.

In reality, Djokovic is not more complete than Federer, and in terms of peak level Federer wins as well.
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It depends on what peak is. Certainy Rafa lost a bit from 2010 in 11 but his biggest issue that year was Novak got in his head. He still went to three GS finals, several HC M1000 finals and won the french.

Novak is more balanced on both wings than Fed, or Rafa, or anybody else out there today. His serve is also pretty good. With that said, he can't slice, he has trouble returning slices and he he hits overheads at a 4.5 level, if that.
 
I guess this is off topic but I just wanted to say: congrats to Djoko for leading the return stats on hard for the 4th consecutive year!
 
Dire_Wolf said:
When he is in the zone, it seems he is playing on a different planet. A his absolute peak he crashed the Fedal party and beat them 10/11 times including a 6-0 against an absolute peak Nadal. It seems when he is in the zone he combines Federer's offense and Nadal's defence to just annihilate opponents. This year he set a record in the WTF for fewest sets lost in the RR stages. He scythed through the AO Champion 6-3 6-0 and double breadsticked the USO champion. I don't think there is another player as dominant when in full flow (save perhaps Sampras on fast hards but even he didn't have as good a return). He mauled Nadal on clay at Rome this year and manhandled Federer on grass at Wimbledon. Incredible when you think about it.

Of course as far as overall achievements go he still has a lot of catching up to do but in terms of pure peak play, surely he surpasses Nadal by a considerable margin and even Federer?
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The short answer is, YES indeed he is. There is no doubt about it at all. I will leave the long answer for later.
 
BringBackSV said:
It depends on what peak is. Certainy Rafa lost a bit from 2010 in 11 but his biggest issue that year was Novak got in his head. He still went to three GS finals, several HC M1000 finals and won the french.

Novak is more balanced on both wings than Fed, or Rafa, or anybody else out there today. His serve is also pretty good. With that said, he can't slice, he has trouble returning slices and he he hits overheads at a 4.5 level, if that.
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Federer has a much better serve, forehand, volleys, overhead, passing shots, touch shots, and superior mental game and tactics to even peak Djokovic. He is easily a more complete player, and I am not a fan of either Federer or Djokovic. Djokovic is a lot like Nadal in that his game is simple, but what he does he does extremely well, and that leads to his great success and relative dominance.

2011 was not peak Nadal in any sense. Don't make me laugh. Prime sure (except on clay), but not peak. 2011 was about his 10th best year of clay tennis. Thank goodness for Djokovic he was able to beat Nadal some on clay this year, since if he couldn't do it this year (his own best year of tennis ever and Nadal's worst year of clay tennis ever after 04) he never would be able to. It was his 5th best year of grass tennis (would be 6th had he played grass in 2009). On hard courts it was behind 2008, 2010, 2013, so at most 4th best. I would even say early 2009 and early 2012 Nadal was better on hard courts than 2011, before injuries hit. Indoors it was super bad even for Nadal's standards including a 6-3, 6-0 loss to Federer and another 0-3 RR performance at the WTF, so probably more like 7th or 8th best Nadal there too.
 
Dire_Wolf said:
When he is in the zone, it seems he is playing on a different planet. A his absolute peak he crashed the Fedal party and beat them 10/11 times including a 6-0 against an absolute peak Nadal. It seems when he is in the zone he combines Federer's offense and Nadal's defence to just annihilate opponents. This year he set a record in the WTF for fewest sets lost in the RR stages. He scythed through the AO Champion 6-3 6-0 and double breadsticked the USO champion. I don't think there is another player as dominant when in full flow (save perhaps Sampras on fast hards but even he didn't have as good a return). He mauled Nadal on clay at Rome this year and manhandled Federer on grass at Wimbledon. Incredible when you think about it.

Of course as far as overall achievements go he still has a lot of catching up to do but in terms of pure peak play, surely he surpasses Nadal by a considerable margin and even Federer?
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That was not "absolute peak" Nadal. Peak, yes. Nadal's level was better in 2010 and 2013, even 2008 outside HC.
 
punsalen said:
Federer has a much better serve, forehand, volleys, overhead, passing shots, touch shots, and superior mental game and tactics to even peak Djokovic. He is easily a more complete player, and I am not a fan of either Federer or Djokovic. Djokovic is a lot like Nadal in that his game is simple, but what he does he does extremely well, and that leads to his great success and relative dominance.

2011 was not peak Nadal in any sense. Don't make me laugh. Prime sure (except on clay), but not peak. 2011 was about his 10th best year of clay tennis. Thank goodness for Djokovic he was able to beat Nadal some on clay this year, since if he couldn't do it this year (his own best year of tennis ever and Nadal's worst year of clay tennis ever after 04) he never would be able to. It was his 5th best year of grass tennis (would be 6th had he played grass in 2009). On hard courts it was behind 2008, 2010, 2013, so at most 4th best. I would even say early 2009 and early 2012 Nadal was better on hard courts than 2011, before injuries hit. Indoors it was super bad even for Nadal's standards including a 6-3, 6-0 loss to Federer and another 0-3 RR performance at the WTF, so probably more like 7th or 8th best Nadal there too.
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Sure about mental game? I'm doubtful.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
Just because Nadal couldn't beat Nole in 2011 doesn't mean he wasn't playing at his absolute peak.
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Why just because? Why are you assuming what my reasons are? It wasn't absolute peak because it wasn't. Because his game was not as good as it was in, for eg, 2013. BH and returns mainly. And somewhat his FH too.
 
Djokovic2011 said:
Just because Nadal couldn't beat Nole in 2011 doesn't mean he wasn't playing at his absolute peak.
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Yeah despite that Nadal was better on clay in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2014, better on grass in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, better on hard courts in 2008, early 2009 and early 2012, 2010, 2013, and better indoors in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2013, that was his all time peak. In other news Santa Clause is purple and the tooth fairy comes every Easter.

What is next, 2011 is Federer's all time peak year, followed closely by 2005 and 2006 (from you that would be easily believable to think and state).
 
kandamrigam said:
Sure about mental game? I'm doubtful.
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Of course Federer is tougher mentally than Djokovic. Djokovic is famous for losing slams people thought he had a good chance of winning. How is that mentally tough.

Federer almost never lost a slam people thought he was going to win.
 
punsalen said:
Yeah despite that Nadal was better on clay in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2014, better on grass in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, better on hard courts in 2008, early 2009 and early 2012, 2010, 2013, and better indoors in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2013, that was his all time peak. In other news Santa Clause is purple and the tooth fairy comes every Easter.

What is next, 2011 is Federer's all time peak year, followed closely by 2005 and 2006 (from you that would be easily believable to think and state).
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You're overplaying it. Nadal was better on grass in 2006? Do you follow Nadal? Better on HC in 2008? Better on clay in 2009? I sympathize with Djoker fans like Djokovic2011 who are often told Nadal was not good in 2011 or past his peak. Nadal was very much in peak, played really really good imo. It's just that in 2013 he had improved his BH and return of serves. In 2011 he was just playing poorly tactically. With almost no BH DTLs and somewhat FH DTLs. His level was high.
 
kandamrigam said:
You're overplaying it. Nadal was better on grass in 2006?
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Of course he was. He didn't lose serve for over 3 matches before the final. Are you forgetting that. Unfortunately he ran into god mode Federer in the final. Nadal in 2007 and 2008 was still far above 2006 though, and 2010 a bit above.

Better on HC in 2008?
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Absolutely. The tennis he played at the Olympics and in Canada was better than any he played in 2011. He even played great at the U.S Open but was taken out by on fire Murray. He served like a mediocre WTA player at the 2011 U.S Open despite making the final. Australia he was injured, where in 2008 he played well but got smoked by Tsonga playing the match of his career.

Better on clay in 2009?
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Yes. He was playing very well on clay until the Madrid event atleast. That semifinal with Djokovic broke both of them physically to some degree, and probably led to what would happen after.
 
punsalen said:
Of course Federer is tougher mentally than Djokovic. Djokovic is famous for losing slams people thought he had a good chance of winning. How is that mentally tough.

Federer almost never lost a slam people thought he was going to win.
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Example for Djoker's case?
 
punsalen said:
Of course he was. He didn't lose serve for over 3 matches before the final. Are you forgetting that. Unfortunately he ran into god mode Federer in the final. Nadal in 2007 and 2008 was still far above 2006 though, and 2010 a bit above.



Absolutely. The tennis he played at the Olympics and in Canada was better than any he played in 2011. He even played great at the U.S Open but was taken out by on fire Murray. He served like a mediocre WTA player at the 2011 U.S Open despite making the final. Australia he was injured, where in 2008 he played well but got smoked by Tsonga playing the match of his career.



Yes. He was playing very well on clay until the Madrid event atleast. That semifinal with Djokovic broke both of them physically to some degree, and probably led to what would happen after.
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I will disagree with all that. The most absurd of all were: Nadal played well in Australia 2008. Peace :)
 
kandamrigam said:
I will disagree with all that. The most absurd of all were: Nadal played well in Australia 2008. Peace :)
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He did play well. He ran into on fire Tsonga. Everyone was expecting him to reach the final and probably win the title before the semis. I guess you have selective vision when your Nadal fanboy goggles are on.
 
kandamrigam said:
Example for Djoker's case?
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2009 French Open (AFTER Nadal's defeat, which was before his own)
2011 French Open
2012 Wimbledon
2012 U.S Open
2013 French Open
2014 Australian Open
2014 French Open
2014 U.S Open

He was favored to win all those events, and won none of them. Some fans think he should have won the 2013 U.S Open too (I don't think that, but for those who do you can add that to the list). He didn't win any events he wasn't favored to win after Australian Open 2011 either.
 
punsalen said:
Federer has a much better serve, forehand, volleys, overhead, passing shots, touch shots, and superior mental game and tactics to even peak Djokovic. He is easily a more complete player, and I am not a fan of either Federer or Djokovic. Djokovic is a lot like Nadal in that his game is simple, but what he does he does extremely well, and that leads to his great success and relative dominance.

2011 was not peak Nadal in any sense. Don't make me laugh. Prime sure (except on clay), but not peak. 2011 was about his 10th best year of clay tennis. Thank goodness for Djokovic he was able to beat Nadal some on clay this year, since if he couldn't do it this year (his own best year of tennis ever and Nadal's worst year of clay tennis ever after 04) he never would be able to. It was his 5th best year of grass tennis (would be 6th had he played grass in 2009). On hard courts it was behind 2008, 2010, 2013, so at most 4th best. I would even say early 2009 and early 2012 Nadal was better on hard courts than 2011, before injuries hit. Indoors it was super bad even for Nadal's standards including a 6-3, 6-0 loss to Federer and another 0-3 RR performance at the WTF, so probably more like 7th or 8th best Nadal there too.
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Djokovic is much better from the back of the court and better off the return than Federer, and those are the areas that matter in today's game. If we had faster surfaces where having a complete game mattered, then Federer would be better, but all of Federer's tools are just 'nice things to have' while Djokovic has better 'tools that actually matter.' Federer may have a stronger serve/forehand, but they are not miles ahead of Djokovic's forehand/serve, and Djokovic by far has the much stronger backhand/return game, areas that are above average on a good day for Federer.

Essentially, Federer has stronger strengths, but Djokovic is a much more complete 'modern' player, as he literally has no weakness to exploit when he is on. Federer on the other hand, can be exploited even when he's on top of his game, especially since his game is basically incompatible with today's surfaces.
 
punsalen said:
2009 French Open (AFTER Nadal's defeat, which was before his own)
2011 French Open
2012 Wimbledon
2012 U.S Open
2013 French Open
2014 Australian Open
2014 French Open
2014 U.S Open

He was favored to win all those events, and won none of them. Some fans think he should have won the 2013 U.S Open too (I don't think that, but for those who do you can add that to the list). He didn't win any events he wasn't favored to win after Australian Open 2011 either.
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How was he the favoured to win all those Slams? So are Murray and Nadal there for nothing? And is that the "real test" of mental strength? How about test of character in matches? When it comes to big games against big players I can easily say Djoker shows better mental toughness as compared to Federer. Few of the stats from ATP's reliability index.

- TB record: Fed > Djoker > Nadal
- Final matches: Nadal > Djoker > Fed
- After winning 1st set: Djoker > Nadal > Fed
- After losing 1st set: Nadal > Fed > Djoker
- Deciding set: Djoker > Nadal> Fed
- 5th set: Nadal > Djoker > Fed
- Break points saved: Fed > Nadal > Djoker
- Break points converted: Nadal > Djoker > Fed
- Match won while saving match point/Match lost while having match point: Djoker > Nadal > Fed

I believe these little stats show who has shown better mental strength between the two. What separates Nadal and Djokovic in the above stats is that in some of the categories Federer is too below in all time list, while Nadal and Djokovic doesn't fare as bad.
 
You could say that about just any other top player. I mean after his extraordinary 2010, Rafa was favored in all of 2011 slams and he only won 1 of the 4. Who cares?
What matters is to win slams and 1 is better than nothing. One doesn't win multiple slams every year (except for slamivore peak Fed ha ha)
 
Since 2011, Djoko has won 0% slam on clay (welcome to the "my name is not Nadal" club and 50% slams on other surfaces. Nadal has won 100% slams on clay and 8% slams on other surfaces (=1). I think they complement each other quite well :)
 
I find it difficult to make comparisons of Novak Djokovic to Roger Federer and Rafael Nadal because he hasn't accomplished anything remotely close to what those two have in the sport of tennis thus far.

The next two years for Novak will be very telling as to where his history will settle in the Open Era. He and Rafael are approaching their twilight years where they will be challenged more frequently by lower-ranked players.

Numbers don't lie and neither does history.

#PTL #JC4Ever

AngieB​
 
i don't think so. his serve is not first tier, although it's much improved. nor does he have the best hands or net play.

but what he does do well—legendary returns, and metronomic lethality from the baseline—makes him one of the toughest outs in tennis when he's on, no question about that.
 
veroniquem said:
You could say that about just any other top player. I mean after his extraordinary 2010, Rafa was favored in all of 2011 slams and he only won 1 of the 4. Who cares?
What matters is to win slams and 1 is better than nothing. One doesn't win multiple slams every year (except for slamivore peak Fed ha ha)
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What about Borg from 1978-1980 where he won two slams per year. Or Sampras from 1994-1997?
 
Djokovic is as complete and perfect a player as a human being can get... what he lacks is humanity...he's a new extraterrestrial breed designed in post-war Serbia to destroy genius artists like Federer...who is the greatest tennis player of all time...but he's human and thus has weaknesses
 
torpantennis said:
Djokovic weaknesses: overhead and inside-the-head.
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Yeah right his overhead is such a huge weakness. Im sure a lot of players come into the match planning to give novak a lot of overheads to give themselves a better chance of winning. And a player that has 7 grand slams. 100+ weeks at no.1, 4 wtfs, has beaten nadal and Federer a combined 36 times is so mentally weak
 
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