Is playing with spin actually safer?

A

Acegame

Rookie
Often i hear people say that playing with spin is safer than hitting flat, because of the margin of safety over the net. But is this really true?

On the one hand i agree, because you'll be less likely to hit the net. But isn't it more difficult to hit the ball to begin with? Isn't there a much greater risk that you frame the ball? When hitting flat there's no Y axis to worry about because your swing will be much more horizontal. But when you go for spin you will have to drop your racket down and swing diagonally upwards. Seems to me that the chance you miss the ball is bigger. Below i made a pro's en con's list. What do you guys think.

spin
pro's:
- margin of saftey above the net
- ball bounces up high (out of striking zone)
- less likely to hit long

con's:
- bigger risk of misshits
- hit short
- slower

flat
pro's
- lower risk of misshits
- faster
- more likely to hit deeper shots

con's
- lower margin over the net
- more likely to hit long
 
True. It's not something for nothing.

Also, to people who say that the spin slows down the pace and makes the ball less likely to go long, you could accomplish that simply by not swinging as hard.
 
Acegame said:
Often i hear people say that playing with spin is safer than hitting flat, because of the margin of safety over the net. But is this really true?

flat
pro's
- lower risk of misshits
- faster
- more likely to hit deeper shots
Click to expand...
See if you can do this against somebody who has lots of topspin heavy balls.
 
The point is that with topspin you can swing hard and not have to be laser precise to keep the ball in the court. Sure Jimmy Connors cleared the net by a foot with almost no spin, but how many hours per day did he hit for? A rec player trying to hit like that will make a ludicrous amount of errors, especially when under pressure and amped up. However, a rec player hitting a few times a week can learn a western forehand that clears the net by 3 to 4 feet and produces very few errors in rallies.
 
Too many "depends".
If you're not athletic and play with precision, adding spin makes you less consistent and more tired.
If you like moving quick and fast, slow precise swinging might not be your game.
We ARE all different.
Rafa's game is certainly different than JohnnyMacs.
 
If you're generally healthy and can routinely bash the ball beyond the baseline, you need topspin as the factor to store your extra energy in and make use of it.

In other words, there's only so much energy needed to send the ball flat to the other baseline. Topspin helps absorbing any additional energy and converts it to pace and bounce height which are also useful elements.

If you're an old geezer -- and I play with lots of them -- don't use topspin. You haven't maxed out depth yet. Your shots will be additionally short and punishable, because you put the energy into topspin that otherwise go to depth.
 
LeeD said:
Excess energy, use topspin.
Inadaquate energy, use SLICE.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

This old man I play with every weekend is barely able to reach my shots to his bh. He just does whatever he could to get the ball back in play. He misses quite a bit or produces easy balls for me to play.

However, when he plays other, lower level players than me, his bh suddenly becomes very adequate!!! They cannot dig up his weak, low bouncing shots well. Their footwork becomes all over the place to get to those shots and it looks disastrous. :)
 
@dman72
I'm not so sure it's easier for a rec player to learn how to hit spinballs (with a diagonal swingpath) without framing the ball than learn how to hit flat shots without hitting the net.

Besides, lets not just talk about unforced errors. It's also a risk to hit a ball that is not deep or fast enough. Especially at the higher levels that will cost you.

@user92626 and Leed
I understand the concept of excess enegry, but there's no (decent) player that hits every ball with completely everything they have. Even with spin those shots will sail long. On the other hand there are many examples of top players (both pro and rec) who hit very flat and are very strong physically. So my point is that everyone holds back to some degree. Whether you hit flat or with spin.
 
Once I rented a ball machine and had a really eye-opening experience:

I did a drill where I tried to see how many balls in a row I could hit safe and high over the net landing in within 6 feet of the baseline.

On my forehand, I was much more consistent on depth when hitting loopy and spinny. But on my 2hb, I was much more consistent on depth when I hit a very flat ball.

So the answer is that it depends on your stroke style.
 
Same is true for topspin vs taking RHS off flat serve for a second serve.

Conditional upon hitting the piece of the ball cleanly, a high RHS topspin serve is safer than a slowed down flat swing. However achieving that clean contact requires a lot more focus.
 
Acegame said:
@user92626 and Leed
I understand the concept of excess enegry, but there's no (decent) player that hits every ball with completely everything they have. Even with spin those shots will sail long. On the other hand there are many examples of top players (both pro and rec) who hit very flat and are very strong physically. So my point is that everyone holds back to some degree. Whether you hit flat or with spin.
Click to expand...

OK, we need to define which top pro's that we both talk about so that we can narrow our conversation. Nadal, Fed, Djokovic don't hit flat from behind / round the baseline. They use topspin though one uses more than the other.


No one holds back to lose if they could crank more for a good shot. Players only hold back (their strength) because of the limit of their techniques. That's all.
 
I find it so funny when some people always talk in absolutes here.

Newsflash there are many types of players, some hit heavy spin, some hit pretty flat, some hit in between.. depends on their game and what works for them.
 
It is a matter of authority and hitting thru the ball.

Having an excess of RHS, you need that spin to pull the ball down into the court. As a benefit you’ll get more net clearance and can make the ball hit the court, yet hitting it hard. Also, with heavy or heavier topspin the ball will take off faster on the bounce and more forward, which makes it more difficult for the flat hitter.

A good pusher can adjust, but most pushers struggle with heavy topspin shots, cause it bounces so high and hard off the racket they are used to with a flat contact. They struggle even more, if you hit an occational slice in between.


——————————
No more on pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter are still subject to disclaimer
 
Acegame said:
Often i hear people say that playing with spin is safer than hitting flat, because of the margin of safety over the net. But is this really true?

On the one hand i agree, because you'll be less likely to hit the net. But isn't it more difficult to hit the ball to begin with? Isn't there a much greater risk that you frame the ball? When hitting flat there's no Y axis to worry about because your swing will be much more horizontal. But when you go for spin you will have to drop your racket down and swing diagonally upwards. Seems to me that the chance you miss the ball is bigger. Below i made a pro's en con's list. What do you guys think.

spin
pro's:
- margin of saftey above the net
- ball bounces up high (out of striking zone)
- less likely to hit long

con's:
- bigger risk of misshits
- hit short
- slower

flat
pro's
- lower risk of misshits
- faster
- more likely to hit deeper shots

con's
- lower margin over the net
- more likely to hit long
Click to expand...


Yes, trying to hit with extreme topspin actually increases the odds of mishitting, netting the ball and losing the point.
 
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Yes, the steeper swing path means the window of timing is shorter and the chance of misshits is bigger.

Spin increases the margin for error but only if footwork and timing are very good. Heavy spin won't make a rec player with crappy footwork consistent.
 
FiReFTW said:
I find it so funny when some people always talk in absolutes here.

Newsflash there are many types of players, some hit heavy spin, some hit pretty flat, some hit in between.. depends on their game and what works for them.
Click to expand...

Who talks in "absolutes"? All I see is general ideas and it's presumed that we all see things reasonably. When it gets a bit deep/detailed, we have to be specific, ie which pro's.


Your "newsflash" is so general that it's basically useless if not clueless.

Tennis hitting from the baseline by a generally healthy athlete, pro or not, is not possible/sustainable with flat, minimal topspin shots (clear the net by 6 inches or less, Reasonably flat, no?). That's not a good way to play tennis. You'll net a lot or fail. Not a feasible way to develop one's game so there's no "depends on their game"
 
You can play both styles and be consistent, as long as you are getting good clearance and keeping the ball deep.

The problem with flatter shots is more when there is a net guy against you...either doubles or when your opponent is consistently getting to the net. It takes more skill to be able to hit it flat (not float) and pass the net guy than if you hit with more spin. With more spin you can swing faster and still keep the ball in. This gives you a greater margin for error and more confidence in going for the passing shots when there is a guy at the net.
 
I am not sure I buy your thesis, I hit with allot of spin off the forehand side and I am no more likely to frame it than flat hitters because it is my natural stroke style, I do it on auto pilot. Besides when I frame it, it tends to fly in anyway.

You're right I can't achieve the same pace as a flat hitter but they have no depth advantage. I can also outlast flat hitters, they will miss before I do and the work I put on the ball makes it difficult for them to attack my forehand. It looks easy to hit a heavily spun shot flat, you just hit it down. In reality, when flat hitters try this, they either go long or blast it into the net.
 
I play against a guy who is 56. He hits flat, zero spin. And he beats 4.0 players comfortably.

I also play against those who hit with much TS, and they do pretty well themselves.

Is flat or TS better?

The true answer is what YOU are comfortable with and how often you practice.

TS can go against you as well. Remember it’s one thing to keep the ball in, but it’s not that a big advantage if it just sits up - in some ways unless you’re hitting TS with conviction it can be a disadvantage
 
travlerajm said:
Once I rented a ball machine and had a really eye-opening experience:

I did a drill where I tried to see how many balls in a row I could hit safe and high over the net landing in within 6 feet of the baseline.

On my forehand, I was much more consistent on depth when hitting loopy and spinny. But on my 2hb, I was much more consistent on depth when I hit a very flat ball.

So the answer is that it depends on your stroke style.
Click to expand...

Same experience plus one more twist. A lot more consistent hitting loopy forehand than flat.
 
Acegame said:
Often i hear people say that playing with spin is safer than hitting flat, because of the margin of safety over the net. But is this really true?

On the one hand i agree, because you'll be less likely to hit the net. But isn't it more difficult to hit the ball to begin with? Isn't there a much greater risk that you frame the ball? When hitting flat there's no Y axis to worry about because your swing will be much more horizontal. But when you go for spin you will have to drop your racket down and swing diagonally upwards. Seems to me that the chance you miss the ball is bigger. Below i made a pro's en con's list. What do you guys think.

spin
pro's:
- margin of saftey above the net
- ball bounces up high (out of striking zone)
- less likely to hit long

con's:
- bigger risk of misshits
- hit short
- slower

flat
pro's
- lower risk of misshits
- faster
- more likely to hit deeper shots

con's
- lower margin over the net
- more likely to hit long
Click to expand...
What level do you play at?
 
Another point is, trajectory is not the same as topspin. You can have a flatten out trajectory with lots of topspin or you can have a dinky lobby shot with no spin.
Topspin allows player to create shots with angle and pace that are impossible without it.
 
mucat said:
Another point is, trajectory is not the same as topspin. You can have a flatten out trajectory with lots of topspin or you can have a dinky lobby shot with no spin.
Topspin allows player to create shots with angle and pace that are impossible without it.
Click to expand...
Which is part of the reason why I asked what level OP plays at. This would help a lot to provide context for his post.
 
mucat said:
Another point is, trajectory is not the same as topspin. You can have a flatten out trajectory with lots of topspin or you can have a dinky lobby shot with no spin.
Topspin allows player to create shots with angle and pace that are impossible without it.
Click to expand...

You can’t remove trajectory out of the discussion because one of the main reasons that topspin bashing has caught on so much is because topspin allows you to hit hard and high and still keep the ball in. Cannot do that with flatter shots.
 
user92626 said:
Tennis hitting from the baseline by a generally healthy athlete, pro or not, is not possible/sustainable with flat, minimal topspin shots (clear the net by 6 inches or less, Reasonably flat, no?). That's not a good way to play tennis. You'll net a lot or fail. Not a feasible way to develop one's game so there's no "depends on their game"
Click to expand...

Not true, like I said.

90% of women hit very flat, from rec level to junior level to pro level, and they get it in just fine and destroy their opposition.
 
mcs1970 said:
You can’t remove trajectory out of the discussion because one of the main reasons that topspin bashing has caught on so much is because topspin allows you to hit hard and high and still keep the ball in. Cannot do that with flatter shots.
Click to expand...

I was not trying to remove trajectory out of the discussion. I was trying to define things so we can have a better discussion.
I head something like "topspins change the geometry of the court or make the court bigger"?

Spins in general also create problem for the receiver because of the action before/after the bounce.
 
dominikk1985 said:
Yes, the steeper swing path means the window of timing is shorter and the chance of misshits is bigger.

Spin increases the margin for error but only if footwork and timing are very good. Heavy spin won't make a rec player with crappy footwork consistent.
Click to expand...

This is what i ment. I'm asking the question in the title of this thread, because i wonder if the extra margin of safety over the net when you hit with spin is canceled out by the shorter window of timing due to the steeper swing. Let me be clear. I'm not trying to prove a point here and "bash" topspin. I'm genuinly unsure and it was something that got me thinking. Happy to be proven wrong.

mad dog1 said:
What level do you play at?
Click to expand...

Hard to say. I'm not from the US. I've seen a rating comparison table that would make me a 4.0/4.5. Not exactly sure how this knowledge will help you in this thread but ok :). Also I must add that i'm not a flat hitter per se. I have a dhbh that is quite flat, but I hit my forehand with spin. My backhand is more reliable though.
 
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FiReFTW said:
Not true, like I said.

90% of women hit very flat, from rec level to junior level to pro level, and they get it in just fine and destroy their opposition.
Click to expand...

Not sure what this is refering too. In all the events I have been at or part of, from juniors to pro, while women normally do not hit as much RPM, they do generate good spin and do not hit flat. Almost all train the same as guy for net clearance and it is varied just like any player during matches.
 
ChaelAZ said:
Not sure what this is refering too. In all the events I have been at or part of, from juniors to pro, while women normally do not hit as much RPM, they do generate good spin and do not hit flat. Almost all train the same as guy for net clearance and it is varied just like any player during matches.
Click to expand...

Some women hit varied, some hit more spin, but alot hit very flat and low net clearance, very aggressive ballbashing baseline tennis.

Basically women hit much less topspin than men (im talking junior tennis here but it applies to pro level aswell).

But like you said, some women still hit decent topspin and some also play varied, but there are quite a big chunk of women that play a very aggressive flat low net clearance baseline bashing game.

There are some guys with a similar game, but with guys juniors thats very rare, while at the women its predominant.

When I watch and compare junior tournaments here its clearly obvious, and ive talked to my coach who plays sparring with alot of juniors aswell, because I was curious as to how that guy hits compared to me, or that girl, etc etc

And according to her when it comes to girl junior players, theres a few who hit good topspin and relatively high margin, but most hit very low net clearance and very flat powerful shots.

That was my point aswell with @user92626

That 90% was just random, did not mean that literally.

My point was that alot of girls play a very flat game with low net clearance, and there are also some guys who play a similar game.

And the main point is that one is not better than the other, both have pros and cons.

According to my coach, particularly comparing two junior girls with two very different styles here, one hits alot of topspin and is kinda like halep in that regard, defensive lots of spin and margin, while the other hits flat with 0.1 feet net clearance.

The difference according to my coach is not quality both have pros and cons and it changes the whole matchup for her

Topspin girl can't really hurt her and the match is more of a grind, physical, stamina battle, lots of long rallies and baseline exchanges, not many winners but not many errors, but more of a grind and battle.

Flat girl is different, more winners and also more errors, the flat girl CAN hurt her, if shes not feeling it she might make more errors, but if shes feeling it and in the zone and hitting lines its very hard to do much.

So with spin and high net clearance you get more margin for error, better consistency but the ball is slower

With more flat balls you get less margin for error but the ball is faster and you can outhit someone much easier

So there are some who play a heavy topspin game, there are some that play a very flat aggressive game...

And then there are very good players who vary the spin and flat equally often and depending on circumstances and change the spin, net clearance and pace of the ball in order to hit the shots they want in the situations, those players are the real deal
 
Acegame said:
This is what i ment. I'm asking the question in the title of this thread, because i wonder if the extra margin of safety over the net when you hit with spin is canceled out by the shorter window of timing due to the steeper swing. Let me be clear. I'm not trying to prove a point here and "bash" topspin. I'm genuinely unsure and it was something that got me thinking. Happy to be proven wrong.
Click to expand...

You're right. There is a point where errors caused by mishitting of the ball (due to the sharp upward movement of the head) become greater than than any other source of error. You don't need super topspin from the baseline. Passing shots require more spin because you have a smaller area to hit into, and the dipping ball is harder to volley. I was hitting around with a fellow last summer who is an experienced player, and he hit a topspin approach shot to my forehand corner. I calmly passed him with a nice tight topspin crosscourt pass that left him surprised. I told him 'don't ever try that against me'. ;) The secret? Stay calm and hit the ball firmly, but don't swing too hard.
 
Last edited:
Just thinking, if say a flat hitter clears the net by one foot and hit the ball deep at the back, two, three feet inside. That would be a relatively fast ball.

Then again, if another player with heavy topspin would manage to do the same, one foot over the net and two feet off the baseline, which ball would play faster in terms of making contact after the bounce?

To produce the amount of speed on the ball with lot of spin would defenately need higher RHS. If that excess RHS requires too much effort, it shall wear you out and force you to hit higher trajectory with less initial velocity.

However the ability to hit lot of topspin gives you more versatility on your shots. And probably even opportunity to hit slower balls without giving the initial to attack from the baseline to your opponent.


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Pete Player said:
Just thinking, if say a flat hitter clears the net by one foot and hit the ball deep at the back, two, three feet inside. That would be a relatively fast ball.

Then again, if another player with heavy topspin would manage to do the same, one foot over the net and two feet off the baseline, which ball would play faster in terms of making contact after the bounce?

To produce the amount of speed on the ball with lot of spin would defenately need higher RHS. If that excess RHS requires too much effort, it shall wear you out and force you to hit higher trajectory with less initial velocity.

However the ability to hit lot of topspin gives you more versatility on your shots. And probably even opportunity to hit slower balls without giving the initial to attack from the baseline to your opponent.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Topspin one but thats extremely tough to do, you can hit alot of spin on lower trajectory balls also, but 1foot over with ton of spin so it neutralizes and equals the advantage of someone hitting very flat and faster ball, that would require the topspin one to be hit by someone with a toooooon more rhs, someone who is a much higher level.

Someone like delpo with his more flat forehands 1 feet over the net can hit much faster balls than nadal, even tho nadals ball when clearing 1 feet (aggressive one) has way more spin.

But if someone had way more rhs then i agree that topspin ball would be way better if hit similarly deep and fast with more spin.
 
del Porto also hit with lots of spins comparing to recreational player, his FH in general has a flatter trajectory comparing to Nadal (but who doesn't).

Topspins is not an all or nothing thing, you just need to have the right amount of it to make it challenging for your opponent.
 
mucat said:
del Porto also hit with lots of spins comparing to recreational player, his FH in general has a flatter trajectory comparing to Nadal (but who doesn't).

Topspins is not an all or nothing thing, you just need to have the right amount of it to make it challenging for your opponent.
Click to expand...

Im talking when Nadal hits a low trajectory aggressive shot, his shot has way more spin than delpo and dips down alot, while delpo has less spin and more penetration and depth (but of course it still has lots of spin).

Nadal has more margin since his shot dips down more and hard to overhit, while Delpo has less margin and can overhit more easily but his shot has more penetration and can hit winners more easily. Both have pros and cons, its about what you prefer.
 
FiReFTW said:
Im talking when Nadal hits a low trajectory aggressive shot, his shot has way more spin than delpo and dips down alot, while delpo has less spin and more penetration and depth (but of course it still has lots of spin).

Nadal has more margin since his shot dips down more and hard to overhit, while Delpo has less margin and can overhit more easily but his shot has more penetration and can hit winners more easily. Both have pros and cons, its about what you prefer.
Click to expand...
We usually bring up DelPo’s bullet shots as if he was hitting them all the time. Meanwhile, he actually hits a lot of mid-pace mid-spin shots to hang in points when not set up for a full signature drive. He’s rather patient and tactical player, as is Wawrinka, opposed to some of the others, like say Goffin or youngsters, who play more uniformly.
 
Given how patient DelPo is, it is intresting how we like to remember his laser forehand winners against the big 3.

Goffin was mentioned, but the best example of the species to me is Thiem. He is really squashing the ball.


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