Is pressure more on Fed or Nadal?

#51
Look, last year, the SF between Rafa and Djoker hinged on one point in the 5th set. It could have gone either way and Djoko was so confident that he demanded the match being completed under the roof in the best weather Wimbledon has had.
What does the closeness of the match have to do with it? Nadal barely won wimbeldon 2008 for example. He couldn't even win in 5 traditional sets and needed an extension to win. Does his win not count then? Did Djokovic win RG 2013 vs Nadal then cos it was close?

Djokovic at the time was slamless that year and playing like a mug losing in slams to Istomin and the like. He was exiting 1R in his pet tournaments. He had lost his last match to Nadal.... yet he still won so the closeness of that match is in no way an indication that nadal is close to Novak on grass at the moment or in slams. When Novak finally got into form and started winning slams he then met Nadal again in AO slam final and obliterated him in straight sets. And even Novaks beta form in wimbeldon was enough to beat Nadal. Match up wise, Nadal has lost to Novak, Novak is simply a better player one on one vs Nadal in the matchup.... now in my book 18 > 15 but Nadal fans don't think like that (or at least they didn't until Novak started crushing Nadal and leading the h2h)

My point... this idea that Nadal is really close to Novak's level at the moment and barely lost wimbeldon could have gone either way is nonsense....
 
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#52
Just imagine if he wins. Nadal at 33 playing his worst surface, beating Djokovic and Federer. Proving that a tough draw or easy draw does not decide whether he wins. Tbh this victory should go down as the best run at a GS. Nadal is clearly though the 3rd favourite, no doubt.!
Yes it would be an amazing win if Nadal were to pull it off. However, the bolded part is funny. Del potros run at USO, Wawrinka's slams, several of feds, several of Djokovic, even several of Nadals has been harder. This years draw has not been hard for nadal except in theory/ on paper.
 
#53
I am glad someone gets it.

If Sampras played on lets say another two years and retired at 33 in 2004, would everyone still say Wimbledon is Sampras' fortress or would it be clear the keys have been given to Federer and it's fortress now, despite only having two titles to Pete's 7? No one really would, because Federer's best would be considered the gold standard, and the man to beat.

You can't really own the fortress if you are clearly the underdog against someone, which at nearly 38 Federer is compared to six years younger Djokvoic. Some think that is insulting Federer, it is not. Realistically Federer shouldn't be owning any slam at his age, its crazy how past his prime he is now. Federer is the greatest Wimbledon Champion of all time, there is no doubt of that, he has the most titles, but we are talking about the current state of affairs, and since 2011 Djokovic has won half the titles.
OK, let's try this for a 3rd time...

Wimbledon isn't Novak Djokovic's fortress. He's won it once in the last 3 years.

Here are those who had Wimbledon as a fortress:

- Sampras (7 titles in 8 yrs)
- Federer (6 titles in 7 yrs)
- Borg (5 titles in 5 yrs)

Sorry, but it's hyperbole in the extreme to claim that Wimbledon is Novak Djokovic's fortress in anywhere near the same way as it was for the above guys.

Agreed upon by all objective tennis observers.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
#54
OK, let's try this for a 3rd time...

Wimbledon isn't Novak Djokovic's fortress. He's won it once in the last 3 years.

Here are those who had Wimbledon as a fortress:

- Sampras (7 titles in 8 yrs)
- Federer (6 titles in 7 yrs)
- Borg (5 titles in 5 yrs)

Sorry, but it's hyperbole in the extreme to claim that Wimbledon is Novak Djokovic's fortress in anywhere near the same way as it was for the above guys.

Agreed upon by all objective tennis observers.
You can post without making personal insults, nice. You don't have to agree with me, I am totally OK with that.
 
#56
Probably more on Nadal. Fed has the slam count. Nadal doesn't have it and is trying to secure chances to earn it. If fed loses he still has the slam count and has the strong chance that Nadal will be crushed by Djokovic in a final. If Nadal loses, he knows either Djokovic or Fed will gain another slam. Djokovic with 16 slams to Nadals 18... ohhh. Fed with 21 ohhh

Both will be under a lot of pressure. I wish this was a final so we could see how they both handle it... that would be uber pressure
 
#57
Wimby = RF's house.

Countless legends have taken on "underdog" status at some point in their careers.

Didn't impact perception.

Until such time as Federer's records are eclipsed at Wimbledon, he's the guy. And in the case of his current rivals, they've got to significantly outdo him, since they rode coattails to get there.
 
#58
One can make a case for either one having more pressure. I think it's pretty equal, with slightly more on Roger. There was probably an even greater amount on Rafa at RG.

As far as GOAT talk, for me, # of slams ranks highly (of course), though I don't put as much of a premium in H2H as many do. In careers this long and successful, one match or tourney should not be THAT important.
 
#59
One can make a case for either one having more pressure. I think it's pretty equal, with slightly more on Roger. There was probably an even greater amount on Rafa at RG.

As far as GOAT talk, for me, # of slams ranks highly (of course), though I don't put as much of a premium in H2H as many do. In careers this long and successful, one match or tourney should not be THAT important.
Surely you jest...

There's more pressure on Nadal, forget Fed, here at Wimbledon than in that RG SF. He knows he might actually lose this one and Djokovic and not Thiem will probably be waiting in the final (I actually can't remember which SF was played first at RG).
 
#60
You can post without making personal insults, nice. You don't have to agree with me, I am totally OK with that.
Well, I wasn't allowed to post what I wanted to because my posts kept being deleted - but then, you knew that.

In any case, why didn't you argue against my point about Novak Djokovic's dominance? Or don't you have a comeback?
 
#62
Fedfans can say a lot. But those who won't admit that the pressure is on Federer, proves to not know tennis. This is Federer's BEST surface and Nadal's WORST. Federer has a disadvantage in age, but he is still playing good and has won most tournaments this year, so he is not as his peak but not far away neither. Nadal has already showed he is the king if he could elect surface, now if Fed wants to be GOAT he has to show his main rival, he is better when he elects surface.
Yes, not too far away from his peak a few weeks away from age 38.

Jimmy Connors was 39 when he made his USO SF runnand was a massive underdog to Courier. Imagine telling people then that a 38 year old isn’t far away from his peak.
 

Hitman

Bionic Poster
#63
Well, I wasn't allowed to post what I wanted to because my posts kept being deleted - but then, you knew that.

In any case, why didn't you argue against my point about Novak Djokovic's dominance? Or don't you have a comeback?
I actually have nothing else to say to you in regards to this topic, other than it is nice to see you post without throwing insults. Hopefully it stays that way, and I have no issues with you disagreeing.
 
#64
Surely you jest...

There's more pressure on Nadal, forget Fed, here at Wimbledon than in that RG SF. He knows he might actually lose this one and Djokovic and not Thiem will probably be waiting in the final (I actually can't remember which SF was played first at RG).
If I were hearing, I would have written something funny/witty.

You'd probably agree that what the fans/media feel and what the players feel are not always the same things, so this is all an exercise in conjecture, no?

My sense is that Fed was "playing with house money" at RG, and Rafa needed it more for slam count and legacy. As I said, Fed doesn't have that degree of expectation at this year's Wimbledon, though he is historically the greater player on grass, and feels Rafa closer in his rearview mirror.
 
#66
If I were hearing, I would have written something funny/witty.

You'd probably agree that what the fans/media feel and what the players feel are not always the same things, so this is all an exercise in conjecture, no?

My sense is that Fed was "playing with house money" at RG, and Rafa needed it more for slam count and legacy. As I said, Fed doesn't have that degree of expectation at this year's Wimbledon, though he is historically the greater player on grass, and feels Rafa closer in his rearview mirror.

Yeh but I'm comparing Nadal to Nadal, RG to Wimbledon. I'm sure Fed had no expectations heading into the RG SF and so feels much more pressure for this Wimbledon SF coming up. It goes without saying that this is conjectural.

Djokovic probably being in the final rather than Agut could work in the other direction, as if Agut pulled off the upset, then the Federer-Nadal SF might feel like the real final.
 
#68
Wimby = RF's house.

Countless legends have taken on "underdog" status at some point in their careers.

Didn't impact perception.

Until such time as Federer's records are eclipsed at Wimbledon, he's the guy. And in the case of his current rivals, they've got to significantly outdo him, since they rode coattails to get there.
Wait, why do they have to significantly outdo him? What coattails? Isn't it harder to win with him in their era?
 
#69
Wait, why do they have to significantly outdo him? What coattails? Isn't it harder to win with him in their era?
He showed the way, provided a target, made them what they are.

They don't exist anywhere near their current forms if he hadn't perfected tennis first.

And they've been chasing the entire time he's been leading.

Easier to follow than to lead.
 
#70
Didn't Fed answer this at AO17 when he was 35??

Yet we care to ask the same question when Fed is 37? He is still playing against the same ATG who is 5 years younger.
 

beernutz

Hall of Fame
#71
Good question OP. I would say Fed because he's already deep in the red on their head to head record and here they are playing on his best surface.
 
#72
'Most successful' is relative. Fedr has won Wimbledon less than 50% of the number of times he's played it - 8/20.
Hes won Wimbledon more than any other slam. It's an obvious assessment and reality that this is his most successful slam and your thinly veiled digs are too obvious . We get it, Nadal is more successful at RG. Not at his 2nd and 3rd best slams though
 
#74
i feel like in general in this match up or atleast history tells me fed will always be the one having to work extra hard and its on him to deliver, not that rafa can get by with a subpar performance but in general fed has always had to produce really strong performances to get by rafa. if they didn't play rg, i'd say maybe just because of recent losses rafa might feel some pressure
 
#75
Nadal himself is 33 and this is Federer's most succesful Slam. Nadal recently defended his fortress at RG and now is Roger's turn to defend his fortress at WB. Plus, if Federer loses it would mean he does not lead the H2H over Nadal in any Slam. Both have the same amount of pression.
There is a huge difference between 33 and 38. I'm not sure if it will ever stop being funny how when Fed was 33 you claimed he was not old and had no excuses but now Nadal is 33 you keep claiming this is old. Maybe it is, but if the difference between 28 and 33 is significant then the difference between 33 and 38 obviously is

It is childhish to consider that one or the other has more pression. The reality is that both have the same pression. You can find many arguments to put the pression on Federer and many argument to put the pression on Nadal.
I think what we need to remember is, is there is a difference between what WE perceive as pressure and what the player feels. We might think one player has the pressure on them but only thing that matter is what they both feel and we cannot know. Though I will say usually it appears Fed has more pressure or at least he FEELS it more than Nadal, or at least Nadal deals with it better
 
#78
There is a huge difference between 33 and 38. I'm not sure if it will ever stop being funny how when Fed was 33 you claimed he was not old and had no excuses but now Nadal is 33 you keep claiming this is old. Maybe it is, but if the difference between 28 and 33 is significant then the difference between 33 and 38 obviously is



I think what we need to remember is, is there is a difference between what WE perceive as pressure and what the player feels. We might think one player has the pressure on them but only thing that matter is what they both feel and we cannot know. Though I will say usually it appears Fed has more pressure or at least he FEELS it more than Nadal, or at least Nadal deals with it better
i think both feel pressure to an extent, i know their h2h (atleast prior to 2017) might suggest other wise, but fed is no schmuck so nadal still has had to play well, but i feel like due to the match up issue fed has felt pressure to step up an extra gear where has nadal maybe not as much
 
#79
Pressure is squarely on Fed - he is the grass GOAT and number 2 seed. He should be beating the number 3 seed Rafa at Wimbledon. A win for Rafa is a bonus, before Wimby last year, no one expected Rafa to make two semis in a row.
 
#80
Nadal.

Federer has the Slam and Wimbledon record. He's the underdog. This can only help his legacy, not hurt it.

Nadal is the favorite, and he's chasing the Slam record. Losing to 37y/o Fed on grass would significantly hurt his dominance of the rivalry and his Slam race position.
I would argue that Fed losing to Rafa a second time at Wimby is very damaging to his legacy. If he is good enough to be top 3 in the world and the number 2 seed at the tournament, I don't think the age card can simultaneously be used.
 
#81
So, RG 2013 was close to, Djokovic lost. Nadal lost at Wimbledon, a loss is still a loss.
My comment was in relation to you saying Djokovic is now the King of Wimbledon simply because he's won 4 titles there recently.

However, I don't like to get involved with pointless predictions. Such a waste of time. Rafa says it all in my signature.

Djoker fans have already got him kissing the trophy so what's there to discuss?
 
#83
I would argue that Fed losing to Rafa a second time at Wimby is very damaging to his legacy. If he is good enough to be top 3 in the world and the number 2 seed at the tournament, I don't think the age card can simultaneously be used.
It can when the field is so crap. At the moment there is a gap between Djokovic/Nadal and Federer and then a fairly huge gap to the rest. All 3 players have an easy path to the semis
 
#84

Is this you when you realised that Fedr hasn't set the house on fire at Wimbledon? He's played 20 tournaments and won a miserly 8 titles!
8 titles is the most anyone has won at Wimbledon ya fool. Just cos Rafa has won 12 RG doesnt mean everyone should have to win that amount at a slam. Fed also has 6 titles at his next best slam while Rafa has a measly 3 and Fed has 5 at his 3rd best while Rafa currently has an even more measly 2
 
#85
Nadal.

Federer has the Slam and Wimbledon record. He's the underdog. This can only help his legacy, not hurt it.

Nadal is the favorite, and he's chasing the Slam record. Losing to 37y/o Fed on grass would significantly hurt his dominance of the rivalry and his Slam race position.
Disagree. Little pressure on Nadal as he has won his pet slam this year. Federer is at his pet slam and has to win it. No question Federer has the pressure, like Nadal did in Paris and Djokovic did in Melbourne.
 
#86
Yeah, the only thing is, I don't see this as Federer's fortress anymore. It belongs to Djokovic IMO. Federer is the greatest Wimbledon champion of all time, but at near 38 he passed the keys onto Djokovic. Djokovic has won four of the last eight Wimbledons, and has a 4-2 H2H against Fedal here. It was clear in 2015, the torch was passed. This cannot be Federer's fortress when he is given an even less of a chance of beating Djokovic than he is beating Nadal.
If Djokovic wins on Sunday it really makes it a proper debate who is Grass court GOAT. especially if he beats Federer.

Federer a clear favourite today if he plays well. Nadal has done brilliantly this tournament but it is his weakest surface. He should feel little pressure as it is the US Open where he has the best chance of adding a 2nd slam this season, even if he beats Federer today he has little chance v Djokovic. Rafa needs a high bouncing court to beat Federer and Djokovic.
 
#87
Look, last year, the SF between Rafa and Djoker hinged on one point in the 5th set. It could have gone either way and Djoko was so confident that he demanded the match being completed under the roof in the best weather Wimbledon has had.
Nadal v Djokovic actually a far more interesting match up than Federer v Nadal. Federer v Djokovic would be better tbh. Nadal v Federer on grass and clay isn't much of a rivalry if both at their best as both are a lot better than the other on respective surfaces
 
#88
If Djokovic wins on Sunday it really makes it a proper debate who is Grass court GOAT. especially if he beats Federer.

Federer a clear favourite today if he plays well. Nadal has done brilliantly this tournament but it is his weakest surface. He should feel little pressure as it is the US Open where he has the best chance of adding a 2nd slam this season, even if he beats Federer today he has little chance v Djokovic. Rafa needs a high bouncing court to beat Federer and Djokovic.
I don't get too cranked up about "surface GOATs", but if that's a thing, it would be way premature to say that Novak defeating Fed at Wimbledon "makes it a proper debate who is Grass court GOAT."

As for Rafa, if he wins today - and almost regardless of his result in the final - it will mean a lot to him, and should be another refutation to those who still knock him for his lopsided clay resume.

To me, all of their legends are secure, and one match or tourney should not be a referendum on their legacy, or GOAThood. They are the three greatest of the OE, possibly of all-time, and they're all hungry to achieve even more.
 

lud

Hall of Fame
#89
Ok. Here's what I think.

This may be Fed last chance to grab slam.(We heard this story ever since WIM 2012), but also it can be Nadal's last chance to get soo close to Federer's record. I think many people underestimate Fed here. He is on great streak. 10 matches in row.
In my opinion, pressure is more on Nadal's back.
 
#90
The pressure is always on the better player so you know who's better.

The amount of pressure that Fed's been under since around 2005 is insane. Each time he lost a set in 2005-2008 it was news. People who followed tennis back then know what I'm talking about. Listen to his post match interview after the 2008 AO SF.
 
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#91
The pressure is always on the better player so you know who's better.

The amount of pressure that Fed's been under since around 2005 is insane. Each time he lost a set in 2005-2008 it was news. People who followed tennis back then know what I'm talking about. Listen to his post match interview after the 2008 AO SF.
It's true. Other than Nadal on clay, he was expected to win every single match he played, and there were inquiries when he didn't.

Such dominance is one of the many reasons why the man is quite simply the GOAT of our sport.
 
#92
What does the closeness of the match have to do with it? Nadal barely won wimbeldon 2008 for example. He couldn't even win in 5 traditional sets and needed an extension to win. Does his win not count then? Did Djokovic win RG 2013 vs Nadal then cos it was close?

Djokovic at the time was slamless that year and playing like a mug losing in slams to Istomin and the like. He was exiting 1R in his pet tournaments. He had lost his last match to Nadal.... yet he still won so the closeness of that match is in no way an indication that nadal is close to Novak on grass at the moment or in slams. When Novak finally got into form and started winning slams he then met Nadal again in AO slam final and obliterated him in straight sets. And even Novaks beta form in wimbeldon was enough to beat Nadal. Match up wise, Nadal has lost to Novak, Novak is simply a better player one on one vs Nadal in the matchup.... now in my book 18 > 15 but Nadal fans don't think like that (or at least they didn't until Novak started crushing Nadal and leading the h2h)

My point... this idea that Nadal is really close to Novak's level at the moment and barely lost wimbeldon could have gone either way is nonsense....
In the context in which I responded to Hitman it's relevant. If you can't be bothered to go and do the conversation trail don't comment on it.
 
#94
8 titles is the most anyone has won at Wimbledon ya fool. Just cos Rafa has won 12 RG doesnt mean everyone should have to win that amount at a slam. Fed also has 6 titles at his next best slam while Rafa has a measly 3 and Fed has 5 at his 3rd best while Rafa currently has an even more measly 2
8/20. Satisfactory. Could try harder.
 
#95
Presssure on Fed should Agut cause an upset

Otherwise pressure on Nadal for losing to 38 year Fed and back to back SF after losing in first week for 5 years
 
#96
8/20. Satisfactory. Could try harder.
Who has more Wimbledon titles? In men's tennis who has more titles at any one slam apart from Nadal?

Nadal with that 2 Wimbledons currently, and only 3 USO could definitely try harder. Fed manages to be leading winner at one slam, joint leader at another and only got passed for joint leader of a third this year. Nadal just leady one slam and far behind in all others..
 
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