Is Serena on the path to becoming the greatest tennis player of all time?

fed1

Professional
If she plays like she did in the Halep match, the title is hers.
Osaka plays nothing like Halep. Serena is not going to be able to dictate as much. This match will be much tougher than the Sabalenka match, Osaka makes more balls and is a smarter player.
 

darkprince49

New User
"Men and women don't compete, so I'm now gonna assert I can still directly compare them."
We are talking about Serena and women’s tennis so, leave the gender argument out of it! But since you mentioned it, men and women are not on equal footing period. Carey Meyer was a top 20 player in the world back in late 1970’s and she played a practice match at the Indianapolis Racquet Club against Todd Witsken when Todd was 15 or 16 year old and Todd beat her 6-0, 6-0! Enough said!
 

NonP

Hall of Fame
I generally respect your posts, but this one sounds a bit patronising. Also, her obnoxious personality and desire to always claim herself as the greatest (when most other former champions seem content in their lives) offsets her trailblazing, for me anyway.
What makes ya think that wasn't my intention? :p

And I've lost count of the number of times my girl's been called out for her supposed "arrogance" or "obsession" when she's simply being as assertive as her (louder) male peers. Sorry, but I don't buy it! Besides her lack of false modesty makes me like her more, not less. :happydevil:
 

Gizo

Hall of Fame
I think she's already the greatest, and that equalling Court's record wouldn't really make much of a difference on that score, although winning grand slam titles in 4 different decades and more than 21 years apart would just be insane.

Unlike men's tennis which already had excellent strength in depth in the top 100 in the 70s and 80s, women's tennis basically had almost zero depth outside the top 10 (and in some cases outside the top 5) throughout that whole period and going into the 21st century. Yes there have been stronger WTA top 10 groupings in the past, especially from 1999 into the early 00s which was a true golden age in that department, and when Serena enjoyed plenty of success and completed her first non-calendar grand slam. However the overall strength in depth in the WTA top 100 in recent times has been significantly greater and on a completely level different compared to those previous eras and generations. In those eras, a 128 player grand slam draw size for the women (which became the norm at RG, Wimbledon and the USO in the early 80) was quite frankly far too big, and the first week was usually like a a holiday camp for the top players.
 
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Phoenix1983

G.O.A.T.
What makes ya think that wasn't my intention? :p

And I've lost count of the number of times my girl's been called out for her supposed "arrogance" or "obsession" when she's simply being as assertive as her (louder) male peers. Sorry, but I don't buy it! Besides her lack of false modesty makes me like her more, not less. :happydevil:
Yeah, I thought it might be, but still.

The bit in bold's not actually true though. I don't hear Borg, Laver or Sampras proclaim themselves as the greatest at every opportunity.
 
1) 23 Slams
2) 2 of every Slam title
3) Most weeks at number 1/Most consecutive weeks at number 1
4) Olympic gold in 2000, 2008, 2012
5) Most single matches won on WTA

Surely, she is the greatest tennis player of all time?
Best of 3 slams.

One of the best WTA pros. That's as far as it goes, Nokak.
 

Awesomeau

New User
How anyone can suggest Court's Slam achievements overshadow Serena's is beyond me. Court won slams where only 32 people competed and many players would skip ones like the Aussie Open because it was so very far away. In 1961 AO there was one non-Aussie in the event. In 1965 she had a walk over in the final, after winning 4 rounds before that! How did she survive such a gruelling tournament?! Even in one of her actual Open Era wins in 1973, she only had to win 5 rounds to win the whole thing. Courts record has *'s all over it and shouldn't even be in the discussion.
 
Lmao, you stalking me xD
Every reply is LMAO...

Translation of this abbreviation from English into Internetese: "I am sobbing, fuming and raging with anger but need to keep these embarrassing emotions hidden and the only way I know how, in my endless powerlessness, is by using LOL and other similar masks to hide behind."

Accurate?
 

CYGS

Legend
Men and women don't compete. To say a woman could never be the greatest ever at a sport because of the built-in physical advantages of men is sexist.

When making cross-gender comparisons, you have to look at the big picture. Serena with 24, after everything else she's achieved and done, would be enough to make her the greatest ever in the sport's history. Her stature would warrant it too. This isn't like NBA vs WNBA. The WTA has enough visibility and star power that we literally could collectively look at an achievement like that and say, yes, she's the greatest.
But she will never have 24.
 

JW10S

Hall of Fame
Serena went through a period where she took the sport for granted. She got interested in other things, like acting. I remember an interview she gave for a magazine where she said "I'm an actress, a model, and a tennis player--in that order". She was pulling out of events, showing up out of shape, etc. Had she been then as serious about tennis as she has been the last 5 or 6 years she would have 30 or more Grand slams by now and long retired with a big family. I for one will not feel the least bit sorry for her if she doesn't brake Margaret Court's record.
 

Bartelby

Bionic Poster
It's pedantic making 24 the decisive issue given the amateur era situation, but it's a God's send for the naysayers and their knuckles are turning white holding onto that point.
 
1) 23 Slams
2) 2 of every Slam title
3) Most weeks at number 1/Most consecutive weeks at number 1
4) Olympic gold in 2000, 2008, 2012
5) Most single matches won on WTA

Surely, she is the greatest tennis player of all time?
Point no. 5 has the clue as to why she can be greatest female tennis player, but not greatest player. There is no greatest player (gender neutral). Ideally we should stop calling either of Fed, Dal or Laver as greatest without the qualifier male. Yes, if Fed played Serena, he would win but it's not at all clear that that isn't purely a reflection of him being physically stronger. Just say greatest male/female tennis player as long as the competitions continue to be separate for men and women.
 

BorgTheGOAT

Hall of Fame
Men and women don't compete. To say a woman could never be the greatest ever at a sport because of the built-in physical advantages of men is sexist.

When making cross-gender comparisons, you have to look at the big picture. Serena with 24, after everything else she's achieved and done, would be enough to make her the greatest ever in the sport's history. Her stature would warrant it too. This isn't like NBA vs WNBA. The WTA has enough visibility and star power that we literally could collectively look at an achievement like that and say, yes, she's the greatest.
You say they don’t compete but then you say it would be possible that a woman is greatest of all. Fact is men are still better, if you say Serena dominated “her competition” more than any man his respective peers, than you are maybe right, but then we must be consistent and say Esther Vergeer is greatest of all.
 
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JustMy2Cents

Semi-Pro
Men and women don't compete. To say a woman could never be the greatest ever at a sport because of the built-in physical advantages of men is sexist.

When making cross-gender comparisons, you have to look at the big picture. Serena with 24, after everything else she's achieved and done, would be enough to make her the greatest ever in the sport's history. Her stature would warrant it too. This isn't like NBA vs WNBA. The WTA has enough visibility and star power that we literally could collectively look at an achievement like that and say, yes, she's the greatest.
Here are 5 laymen 'competing' against Serena :laughing::laughing::-D
 

Gizo

Hall of Fame
When I first started posting here back in 2007, I'm sure that there was a moderator at the time who insisted that he could beat Serena.

I read comments from numerous 5.0 players, who felt that they could beat active top female players, or retired male players (like McEnroe), which was comical to say the least. Talk about being deluded.
 
When I first started posting here back in 2007, I'm sure that there was a moderator at the time who insisted that he could beat Serena.

I read comments from numerous 5.0 players, who felt that they could beat active top female players, or retired male players (like McEnroe), which was comical to say the least. Talk about being deluded.

Yeah, that was Kaptain Karl. He was a 50 something man who was convinced that no WTA player could handle his variety of shot.
 

Gizo

Hall of Fame
Yeah, that was Kaptain Karl. He was a 50 something man who was convinced that no WTA player could handle his variety of shot.
Ah yes thanks, that was hilarious. I could maybe understand an overly enthusiastic teenage player getting carried away and saying things like that, but not someone in their 50s !

I'm sure that there have also been quite a few threads over the years as well regarding a 5.0 player vs. McEnroe or along those lines. Good for a bit of light relief I guess !

Of all the sports that I follow, tennis definitely has the highest number and percentage of delusional amateurs who overrate their own abilities especially compared to pros.

Previously, I and some friends have played soccer games with semi-pro players in the UK / guys that played for very high standard youth / junior teams but weren't able to make the jump to the professional ranks etc., and none of us ever thought that we came anywhere close to their level.
 
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abmk

Bionic Poster
Kids, Navratilova is the greatest now, forever and ever, man or woman. Grown-ups understand there's more to greatness than just numbers.

And even by that limited metric it's pretty much a toss-up between Margaret, Chris, Martina and Serena. This notion that a single extra major is such a gigantic tiebreaker for these gals with 18-24 under their belt is just monumentally silly.
Graf is up there. No reason to leave her out.
 
Men and women don't compete. To say a woman could never be the greatest ever at a sport because of the built-in physical advantages of men is sexist.

When making cross-gender comparisons, you have to look at the big picture. Serena with 24, after everything else she's achieved and done, would be enough to make her the greatest ever in the sport's history. Her stature would warrant it too. This isn't like NBA vs WNBA. The WTA has enough visibility and star power that we literally could collectively look at an achievement like that and say, yes, she's the greatest.
Google "sexist". It isn't what you believe it is.
 
Kids, Navratilova is the greatest now, forever and ever, man or woman. Grown-ups understand there's more to greatness than just numbers.

And even by that limited metric it's pretty much a toss-up between Margaret, Chris, Martina and Serena. This notion that a single extra major is such a gigantic tiebreaker for these gals with 18-24 under their belt is just monumentally silly.
...
 
When I first started posting here back in 2007, I'm sure that there was a moderator at the time who insisted that he could beat Serena.

I read comments from numerous 5.0 players, who felt that they could beat active top female players, or retired male players (like McEnroe), which was comical to say the least. Talk about being deluded.
These people don't realize that even 11 year-old juniors would crush them.
 

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
They are all great players but I still maintain that Graf is the greatest female tennis player of all time. People pick Serena today is because of present-bias.



Top 5 reasons Steffi Graf is Tennis "Greatest Of All Time(GOAT)"


5. Footwork
Tennis is a game of legs and no player man or women ever moves as fluidly and beautify as Steffi Graf. In his memoir open, Agassi said Steffi was so fast she once trained for the German Olympic track and field team. Even in her retirement when Graf hit the court her feet never stop moving.


4. The Forehand
The Graf forehand has been called the greatest single groundstroke in women's tennis history. Earning her the nickname "Fraulein Forehand".


3. The Golden Moment
Steffi holds the record that may never be broken. She's the only player man or women to win a single season "Golden Slam".


2. Major Dominance
Steffi was at her best at grand slam stages. From 1987 to 1990, Graf reaches an astounding 13 consecutive grand slam finals, and she won 9 of those. Even more impressive, she won every grand slam titles at least 4 times, and remains the only player to achieved that feat. Graf reaches 31 Grand Slam single finals, and her 90% winning percentage in Grand Slam matches remains one of the best of all time and that's truly incredible.


1. Time at the top
Numbers don't lie. Steffi Graf is the greatest of all time because of her longevity at the top. Graf held the top spot for a record 377 weeks, that's nearly 60 weeks more than Williams who was number one for 319 weeks. When you stack Steffi's career next to Serena, Graf 900 career victories are more than Williams and her 107 career titles are 35 more than Serena who won 72 titles. And she achieved all of that in a shorter career than Serena. Steffi retire in 1999 at the age of 30, ending nearly 17 years career. Serena at 39 today is playing in her 26th professional season.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
They are all great players but I still maintain that Graf is the greatest female tennis player of all time. People pick Serena today is because of present-bias.



Top 5 reasons Steffi Graf is Tennis "Greatest Of All Time(GOAT)"


5. Footwork
Tennis is a game of legs and no player man or women ever moves as fluidly and beautify as Steffi Graf. In his memoir open, Agassi said Steffi was so fast she once trained for the German Olympic track and field team. Even in her retirement when Graf hit the court her feet never stop moving.


4. The Forehand
The Graf forehand has been called the greatest single groundstroke in women's tennis history. Earning her the nickname "Fraulein Forehand".


3. The Golden Moment
Steffi holds the record that may never be broken. She's the only player man or women to win a single season "Golden Slam".


2. Major Dominance
Steffi was at her best at grand slam stages. From 1987 to 1990, Graf reaches an astounding 13 consecutive grand slam finals, and she won 9 of those. Even more impressive, she won every grand slam titles at least 4 times, and remains the only player to achieved that feat. Graf reaches 31 Grand Slam single finals, and her 90% winning percentage in Grand Slam matches remains one of the best of all time and that's truly incredible.


1. Time at the top
Numbers don't lie. Steffi Graf is the greatest of all time because of her longevity at the top. Graf held the top spot for a record 377 weeks, that's nearly 60 weeks more than Williams who was number one for 319 weeks. When you stack Steffi's career next to Serena, Graf 900 career victories are more than Williams and her 107 career titles are 35 more than Serena who won 72 titles. And she achieved all of that in a shorter career than Serena. Steffi retire in 1999 at the age of 30, ending nearly 17 years career. Serena at 39 today is playing in her 26th professional season.
In fairness to Williams, she has rarely played full seasons. For one reason or another, she's not supported the tour like most top ranked players.
 

Gizo

Hall of Fame
For what it's worth, Graf is definitely the best 'all surface player' that I've seen. By the end of the 1989 season, she had already won each major plus the YEC / Virginia Slims Championships on carpet, twice apiece. Of all the great players that I've seen, I think the gulf between her level of play and ability on the different surfaces was lower.

Serena is excellent on clay, and I thought that her 2013 season when she won her 2nd RG title and went 28-0 on clay (5 titles) was absolutely huge for her legacy (the notion that she could be the greatest player before then with only 1 RG final appearance was ridiculous to me), but I think that Graf was better on her weakest surface than Serena was on hers.

It was a shame that there was so little joy and excitement, including from her personally, when she completed the grand slam in 1988. It was considered to be a foregone conclusion even during that year's Australian Open from what I remember, and it was very anti-climatic when she sealed the deal. More than anything she was relieved that it was all over, barely smiled and apparently didn't even celebrate her monumental achievement.
 

PDJ

G.O.A.T.
For what it's worth, Graf is definitely the best 'all surface player' that I've seen. By the end of the 1989 season, she had already won each major plus the YEC / Virginia Slims Championships on carpet, twice apiece. Of all the great players that I've seen, I think the gulf between her level of play and ability on the different surfaces was lower.

Serena is excellent on clay, and I thought that her 2013 season when she won her 2nd RG title and went 28-0 on clay (5 titles) was absolutely huge for her legacy (the notion that she could be the greatest player before then with only 1 RG final appearance was ridiculous to me), but I think that Graf was better on her weakest surface than Serena was on hers.

It was a shame that there was so little joy and excitement, including from her personally, when she completed the grand slam in 1988. It was considered to be a foregone conclusion even during that year's Australian Open from what I remember, and it was very anti-climatic when she sealed the deal. More than anything she was relieved that it was all over, barely smiled and apparently didn't even celebrate her monumental achievement.
She was so young in 1988. She was ecstatic when she won the French in 1999. Meant more as the years pass. I'm sure if Williams does get another major (lord knows she won't give up) it'll be the icing on the cake. Although she's generally quite enthusiastic when she wins I imagine no.24 will see huge celebrations from her.
 

Graf1stClass

Semi-Pro
For what it's worth, Graf is definitely the best 'all surface player' that I've seen. By the end of the 1989 season, she had already won each major plus the YEC / Virginia Slims Championships on carpet, twice apiece. Of all the great players that I've seen, I think the gulf between her level of play and ability on the different surfaces was lower.

Serena is excellent on clay, and I thought that her 2013 season when she won her 2nd RG title and went 28-0 on clay (5 titles) was absolutely huge for her legacy (the notion that she could be the greatest player before then with only 1 RG final appearance was ridiculous to me), but I think that Graf was better on her weakest surface than Serena was on hers.

It was a shame that there was so little joy and excitement, including from her personally, when she completed the grand slam in 1988. It was considered to be a foregone conclusion even during that year's Australian Open from what I remember, and it was very anti-climatic when she sealed the deal. More than anything she was relieved that it was all over, barely smiled and apparently didn't even celebrate her monumental achievement.
A far cry from Venus's semifinal win in the US Open back in 1997 -- I remember thinking what a celebration when the tournament wasn't even over! Her jumping up and down was for the ages; you'd have thought she won the Golden Slam herself. Still glad she put her opponent in her place. Her barging in unaccounted for and progressing so far was a miraculous run. Of course, full credit to Serena for her accomplishments, though I can't help but wonder how she would have fared had Venus been more keen on defeating her in the many matches they played together.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
I will give Serena props as the greatest tennis player of all time the second she takes down Nadal, Fed and Djokovic on the surface of her choice.

If I post a 100-0 record beating 10 year olds, it doesn't make me the greatest at anything. You have to beat the best to be the best and we all know WTA players are not comparable to ATP players.
 

Midaso240

Hall of Fame
I will give Serena props as the greatest tennis player of all time the second she takes down Nadal, Fed and Djokovic on the surface of her choice.

If I post a 100-0 record beating 10 year olds, it doesn't make me the greatest at anything. You have to beat the best to be the best and we all know WTA players are not comparable to ATP players.
Very true, because I don't see anyone saying that the greatest women's basketball player (whoever that is) is as great as Michael Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Lebron, Kobe etc. Why do we have this in tennis?
 
P

PETEhammer

Guest
They are all great players but I still maintain that Graf is the greatest female tennis player of all time. People pick Serena today is because of present-bias.



Top 5 reasons Steffi Graf is Tennis "Greatest Of All Time(GOAT)"


5. Footwork
Tennis is a game of legs and no player man or women ever moves as fluidly and beautify as Steffi Graf. In his memoir open, Agassi said Steffi was so fast she once trained for the German Olympic track and field team. Even in her retirement when Graf hit the court her feet never stop moving.


4. The Forehand
The Graf forehand has been called the greatest single groundstroke in women's tennis history. Earning her the nickname "Fraulein Forehand".


3. The Golden Moment
Steffi holds the record that may never be broken. She's the only player man or women to win a single season "Golden Slam".


2. Major Dominance
Steffi was at her best at grand slam stages. From 1987 to 1990, Graf reaches an astounding 13 consecutive grand slam finals, and she won 9 of those. Even more impressive, she won every grand slam titles at least 4 times, and remains the only player to achieved that feat. Graf reaches 31 Grand Slam single finals, and her 90% winning percentage in Grand Slam matches remains one of the best of all time and that's truly incredible.


1. Time at the top
Numbers don't lie. Steffi Graf is the greatest of all time because of her longevity at the top. Graf held the top spot for a record 377 weeks, that's nearly 60 weeks more than Williams who was number one for 319 weeks. When you stack Steffi's career next to Serena, Graf 900 career victories are more than Williams and her 107 career titles are 35 more than Serena who won 72 titles. And she achieved all of that in a shorter career than Serena. Steffi retire in 1999 at the age of 30, ending nearly 17 years career. Serena at 39 today is playing in her 26th professional season.
Bank account?
 

Mr.Lob

Legend
Wait - on the internet, including tennis warehouse they are promoting Serena’s new t- shirt collection which includes a t - shirt stating that she is the world’s greatest athlete. So it must be true that she is the greatest tennis player
Do they have a t-shirt that says, "World's Greatest Drama Queen and Tennis Ball Stuffer"? I'll take a dozen.
 
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Graf1stClass

Semi-Pro
Very true, because I don't see anyone saying that the greatest women's basketball player (whoever that is) is as great as Michael Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Lebron, Kobe etc. Why do we have this in tennis?
Because the title could be changed to "most accomplished tennis player" if that makes it clearer. It is the same reason people do not discount every male success who played in a "weak era". You do the best you can under your playing circumstances.
 

REKX

Rookie
No because she wouldn't have even been in the top 5000 men's, if that even. So she can't ever possibly be considered the greatest of all time, there have been tens pf thousands of players better than her in history. With the utmost respect.
 
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