Is Serena's game really that much better than the others?

[FedererGlides]

I don't agree when people say things like:

"She has taken women's tennis to another level"
"At her best no one can match her"

These two statements are way off the mark. Seles from 1991-1993 had a better game than Serena at her best. It was more precise and more intelligent and more consistent with few unforced errors. Seles had power, precision and consistency and her return was better than Serena's return.

Graf had a better forehand than Serena and her slice would kill Serena's overrated and inconsisent backhand. She also had better movement, footwork and court speed. Serena's serve was better but Graf had a great serve too and Graf was much more consistent off the ground.

Henin's game was also much better than Serena's, but the problem is that Henin was a choker and this is why she lost many matches against Serena. Serena never outplayed Henin when Henin was at her best. In fact Serena never even beat Henin when Henin was at her best. The head to head is 7-6 to Serena. If Henin hadn't choked so much, she would have only lost one or 2 matches against Serena. She was a much better player than Serena in terms of talent.

Hingis had an excellent record against Serena. There is this misconception that the Williams sisters power sent Hingis into retirement. This is completely false. Hingis had a winning record over Venus and almost even record against Serena. Hingis' problem was the same as Henin. She often choked against the Williams sisters and lost matches she not have lost. If you watch her bmatches against the Williams sisters, she often did not play to her potential in those matches. She was just mentally fragile and that is why she started losing to them in big matches from the year 2000.

You could possibly make an arguement that Venus Williams from 2000-2001 took women's tennis on fast courts to a new level. But she couldn't maintain it, and she was awful on other surfaces. Also as good as Venus was, Hingis and Davenport were both mentally fragile.

 

[Paul Murphy]

Serena's serve is the best I've seen from a woman and I started wartching tennis seriously in the late 1970s.
Her forehand is also one of the very best.
Playing at her highest level I think Graf could struggle to hold her.

 

[FedererGlides]

Serena's serve is the best I've seen from a woman and I started wartching tennis seriously in the late 1970s.
Her forehand is also one of the very best.
Playing at her highest level I think Graf could struggle to hold her.

I agree that her serve is the best of all time, but racket technology has helped her. Apart from her serve, I don't see anything that would trouble Graf at her best. Perhaps if Graf got intimidated and choked against Serena, then Graf would have problems and would lose. But if prime Graf plays her game and does not get inditimidated, I think she would dominate Serena. I would love to see what Serena could do against prime Chris Evert with those wooden rackets. I think Serena would struggle.

 

[Paul Murphy]

Well, I can say this, a peak Graf v peak Serena match would be something I'd pay a lot to see.

 

[FedererGlides]

Well, I can say this, a peak Graf v peak Serena match would be something I'd pay a lot to see.

Yes so would I. I know for sure that Serena would not be intimidated by Graf and would play to her full potential against Graf and would relish it. But I wonder about Graf. Remember Graf got indimidated by Seles pre stabbing. Yes Seles was talented, but Graf's forehand broke down against Seles and her game became erratic in big grand slam finals against Seles.

But Graf did save 5 matchpoints against Seles in the 1992 French Open before going on to lose 10-8 in the third set. So she didn't exactly roll over against Seles and accept defeat easily. But Graf did not play to her full potential in those big pre stabbing grand slam finals against Seles - 1990 French Open final, 1992 French Open final and 1993 Australian open final.

I think Serena would do everything to intimidate Graf and grunt louder than ever, and stare at Graf across the net after winning a point. But Graf would ignore her and just get on with the next point. The important thing for Graf is to take advantage when she gets a chance on Serena's serve just like she did against Navratilova's serve in those Wimbledon finals.

 

[El Diablo]

Those players were certainly all great, but in both men's and women's tennis the general level of play has been rising, certainly the speed of the game has increased. Graf, for example, didn't have to hit that slice backhand against the kind of topspin play in the game now, and I wonder if that shot would have been as effective against balls that jump the way they do now. Watch the Serena-Sugarpova final from the AO a few years ago and tell me if you've ever seen sustained excellence like that before.

 

[halalula1234]

 

[ga tennis]

Take away the serve and shes similar to the rest of the top women.Add the first and second serve of serena and now you see why she can dominate when she wants to.

 

[cknobman]

She does not fold mentally like a good chunk of the other WTA players on tour now.

Combine that with her serve and all around power and it makes for a successful combination.

 

[Warriorroger]

Those players were certainly all great, but in both men's and women's tennis the general level of play has been rising, certainly the speed of the game has increased. Graf, for example, didn't have to hit that slice backhand against the kind of topspin play in the game now, and I wonder if that shot would have been as effective against balls that jump the way they do now. Watch the Serena-Sugarpova final from the AO a few years ago and tell me if you've ever seen sustained excellence like that before.

Well have to (kindly) disagree with you on the topspin remark. Most of todays women play a very hard flat game, which is much easier to counter with a sliced backhand in contrast to the heavy topspin balls Conchita Martinez and Gabriela Sabatini e.g. , threw at her.
It's difficult to tell how much today's rackets in the hands of a prime Graf would help her. She was so good, because she was such an extraordinary athlete. Her technique in the hands of a lesser athlete would be average IMO.

I think Serena's game is better than today's players, but not prime Graf-Navratilova and maybe Seles. Seles' groundstrokes were great, but I think she would lack the movement needed when facing Williams, were Graf and Navratilova can outsmart her without having to outhit her, which is the best part of Seles's game and Serena is more powerful in that department. Serena and today's woman play the same powergame, she is stronger, faster and more confident, believes in herself, has the best serve and the luck that all her opponents can do is hit the ball hard and are not very smart players.

I don't think Graf was ever intimitated by the tennisplayer Monica Seles, but more that there was someone who could challenge her and force her to rethink her own game. Had Graf been a better tactical player in that period, Seles would have had a much tougher time overtaking her.

Sorry this was a Serena thread: yes she better than the others (and I find her many times a not so likable person, but I give her credit for her fighting spirit)

 

[DRII]

I don't agree when people say things like:

"She has taken women's tennis to another level"
"At her best no one can match her"

These two statements are way off the mark. Seles from 1991-1993 had a better game than Serena at her best. It was more precise and more intelligent and more consistent with few unforced errors. Seles had power, precision and consistency and her return was better than Serena's return.

Graf had a better forehand than Serena and her slice would kill Serena's overrated and inconsisent backhand. She also had better movement, footwork and court speed. Serena's serve was better but Graf had a great serve too and Graf was much more consistent off the ground.

Henin's game was also much better than Serena's, but the problem is that Henin was a choker and this is why she lost many matches against Serena. Serena never outplayed Henin when Henin was at her best. In fact Serena never even beat Henin when Henin was at her best. The head to head is 7-6 to Serena. If Henin hadn't choked so much, she would have only lost one or 2 matches against Serena. She was a much better player than Serena in terms of talent.

Hingis had an excellent record against Serena. There is this misconception that the Williams sisters power sent Hingis into retirement. This is completely false. Hingis had a winning record over Venus and almost even record against Serena. Hingis' problem was the same as Henin. She often choked against the Williams sisters and lost matches she not have lost. If you watch her bmatches against the Williams sisters, she often did not play to her potential in those matches. She was just mentally fragile and that is why she started losing to them in big matches from the year 2000.

You could possibly make an arguement that Venus Williams from 2000-2001 took women's tennis on fast courts to a new level. But she couldn't maintain it, and she was awful on other surfaces. Also as good as Venus was, Hingis and Davenport were both mentally fragile.

Probably the only statement that i will ever agree (partially) with you on :shock:

 

[DeShaun]

Serena's serve is the best I've seen from a woman and I started wartching tennis seriously in the late 1970s.
Her forehand is also one of the very best.
Playing at her highest level I think Graf could struggle to hold her.

Exactly. Serena's serve is the greatest difference maker IMO. She is clutch and accurate with it. Other big servers in the WTA like Lisicki or Kvitova can serve as big but only when they're having a good day and are in the zone, whereas Serena just rips a big accurate serve anytime anywhere she feels like it. Serena is very hard to break when she is invested in winning her match. If you happen to break her, she is usually good for at least one or two beastly return games where she will pressure your serve like crazy and usually smack one return winner and a forcing return or two.

 

[sureshs]

A better player is one who wins. There is no such thing as a better player who choked but lost, a better player who beat other lesser players but lost to this one, a better player who had better strokes but lost, etc. Between A and B, whoever wins is the better player.

 

[Chillaxer]

No. Graf was better. Stronger era too then. She's just power, way more than the others.

 

[NadalAgassi]

These two statements are way off the mark. Seles from 1991-1993 had a better game than Serena at her best. It was more precise and more intelligent and more consistent with few unforced errors. Seles had power, precision and consistency and her return was better than Serena's return.

Serena moves lights years better than Seles (even out of shape she moves much better than a thin Seles used to), has far better defense, her serve is another league, and she can hit from every part of the court with as much or probably more power. She is also better at the net. Seles's only advantage is consistency. Serena in even one of her prime (not neccessarily peak years) would never a lose slam final 6-2, 6-1 as all time peak Seles did. As for court smarts, if Serena could even outdo Hingis in court smarts in a few of their matches, doing so to Seles would have been more than doable.

Graf had a better forehand than Serena and her slice would kill Serena's overrated and inconsisent backhand. She also had better movement, footwork and court speed. Serena's serve was better but Graf had a great serve too and Graf was much more consistent off the ground.

Haha Graf had major trouble with a 17 year old Serena with less than half the speed, power, and court smarts of future years. Graf was overtaken at the top of the womens game in emphatic fashion by another player (Seles) in the heart of her career, something that would never happen to Serena while she was near the top, healthy, and active. Anyway Graf and Seles are long retired. Get out of your time warp.

Henin's game was also much better than Serena's, but the problem is that Henin was a choker and this is why she lost many matches against Serena. Serena never outplayed Henin when Henin was at her best.

ROTFL this is the best one yet. Henin was better than Serena on clay, but on all other surfaces Serena owns. Henin has only 1 win over Serena ever on hard courts in 7 meetings. Dont even get started on grass where one just compares the Williams legacy to a player who found herself outshone by the likes of Sharapova, Davenport, Mauresmo, Hingis, and Kvitova on grass, and Wimbledon-less. As for chokes Henin lost only one match to Serena due to possible choking, Miami 2007. That is it, no others did she surrender a lead of any sort.

Hingis had an excellent record against Serena. There is this misconception that the Williams sisters power sent Hingis into retirement.

Yes excellent as in a losing one before Serena even became Serena and when Hinigs was in her prime, and that misconception was no misconception, it was the truth.

 

[Mainad]

Well, it's certainly way better than anybody else on the WTA tour these days. When she plays her best (which she doesn't always do) there is no other current woman player who can touch her. Just look how she destroyed every single one of her opponents at the Olympics in straight, easy sets including Sharapova in the final, for the loss of just 1 game!

She is a 14 time Slam winner and, at the age of 30, you still feel she will win more if she stays healthy and motivated. It is curious that both the ATP and WTA tours are currently dominated by multi-Slam winning 30 year-olds. But Serena's dominance over the WTA is much more pronounced than Federer's over the ATP!

 

[Gizo]

Serena would get dominated by most of the other great female tennis players on clay, but on hard courts and grass her level of tennis has been the best that I have ever seen from a female tennis player.

 

[Down_the_line]

Both Venus and Serena have the ability to consistently hit hard flat shots from both sides. That's one main factor that I believe always separated them from the field, Serena still. Also, when I watch them the thing I most marvel at is how they seem to always put the ball where they want every time, even if they're hitting a tough shot like an inside out backhand. Does anyone else get what I mean? I really notice it with Venus when she hits her backhand. She's got that relatively short backswing and she just directs it any which direction almost every time.

The top women now don't seem to have that mix of precision and control on their groundstrokes. Serena and Venus almost always dictate the baseline rallies with authority and it makes them stand out from the rest of the field, even Venus still, even if she isn't at the top of the game anymore.

 

[mellowyellow]

Well, it's certainly way better than anybody else on the WTA tour these days. When she plays her best (which she doesn't always do) there is no other current woman player who can touch her. Just look how she destroyed every single one of her opponents at the Olympics in straight, easy sets including Sharapova in the final, for the loss of just 1 game!

She is a 14 time Slam winner and, at the age of 30, you still feel she will win more if she stays healthy and motivated. It is curious that both the ATP and WTA tours are currently dominated by multi-Slam winning 30 year-olds. But Serena's dominance over the WTA is much more pronounced than Federer's over the ATP!

Because mens fitness/strength training is ver equal at the top of the sport, you can't point to a time in womens tennis this has been the case, nor project a time. Most women want to look like... WOMEN, not runningbacks from the NFL.

 

[10is]

Both Venus and Serena have the ability to consistently hit hard flat shots from both sides. That's one main factor that I believe always separated them from the field.

Not only did Henin have that ability in spades, she was also way more versatile. The "female Federer" moniker is not without merit. If not for her injuries curtailing her career it could very well have been the Henin era. For all her abundant talent it was her fate allotted height that shortchanged what could have been a magnificent career.

 

[NadalAgassi]

Serena would get dominated by most of the other great female tennis players on clay, but on hard courts and grass her level of tennis has been the best that I have ever seen from a female tennis player.

The only mark against Serena I see is all the 3 setter she had to play at her peak vs Capriati who I dont think is that good, but then again I strongly dislike Capriati so I might not fully credit her abilities. Also it was probably a matchup thing more than anything, considering how frequently she destroyed players who were even then (the height of Capriatis career) better than Capriati like Davenport and Henin, except for Henin on clay of course.

 

[Polaris]

... Capriati who I dont think is that good, but then again I strongly dislike Capriati ...

Why do you say this maan? After all, you had capriatifanatic as your username all those years ago. What happened for you to "strongly dislike" Capriati?

 

[SQA333]

No, it's just that everybody tries to beat her at HER own game, which of course she's better than everybody else at.

Throw in an Andy Murray or Roger Federer-style player in the WTA Tour and Serena would be sent back to tennis school.

Or in her case, prison, after shovelling a tennis ball down a linesman's throat. :lol:

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

These two statements are way off the mark. Seles from 1991-1993 had a better game than Serena at her best.

Laughable notion, with the the most chuckle-inducing proof being Seles (like the run-when-you're-losing Henin) was a complete failure at Wimbledon--the event Serena had no trouble winning time after time. To be honest, anything Seles had--from her serve (heh!), returns, and any game at net (heh!) was surpassed by Serena. Seles had no advantages.

Hingis had an excellent record against Serena. There is this misconception that the Williams sisters power sent Hingis into retirement.

No, the misconception is that she was injured or too doped up to continue, as the tables were quickly turning in her matches against the Williams sisters. She was full of herself (see: her treatment of Graf), and as she barely survived the near-retirement era of Graf, she would not last long into the Williams era, as the inherent weakness in her weekend park-eqsue game were exposed as the sisters matured.

 

[RF-17-GOAT]

Weak era imho. But Serena is one of the GOATs for me.

 

[Russeljones]

I don't agree when people say things like:

"She has taken women's tennis to another level"
"At her best no one can match her"

These two statements are way off the mark. Seles from 1991-1993 had a better game than Serena at her best.

How exactly did you come to your conclusion? Serena's best tennis was not played during '91-'93 for you to compare the two, so you can only go by what you're seeing now and what you remember back then.

If anything in your memory indicates that Seles's groundstrokes, return of serve and serve would hold a candle to the Serena of today, I do fear for your powers of recollection

 

[halalula1234]

What makes serena different:

- Serve
- Mental strength

Those 2 are the most important things that makes her a great champ. Her game may be similar to a lot of the hard hitters today but its those 2 things that sets her apart.

She may not be as tactical as hingis or entertaining as henin or as fast and as explosive as venus but her mental strength and serve is what won her all those slams.

 

[Gizo]

The only mark against Serena I see is all the 3 setter she had to play at her peak vs Capriati who I dont think is that good, but then again I strongly dislike Capriati so I might not fully credit her abilities. Also it was probably a matchup thing more than anything, considering how frequently she destroyed players who were even then (the height of Capriatis career) better than Capriati like Davenport and Henin, except for Henin on clay of course.

True Capriati with her excellent return of service and defensive baseline game (and despite being steady she was far more powerful than the likes of Jankovic or Wozniacki) was a difficult match up for Serena and caused her a lot of problems. However everyone hasn't difficult match-ups so I don't think that is mark against her.

And despite the many scares she had against Capriati, we musn't lose track of the fact that it's the winning that counts, and Serena did win most of her matches against Capriati (10 out of 17), with 8 wins in a row from Toronto 2001 to Wimbledon 2003. It wasn't as if she was regularly losing to Capriati in her peak or anything.

Capriati had the clear edge over pre-prime Serena, winning 4 out of their last 5 matches, including recovering from a set and a double break down to win their 2001 Wimbledon QF. However Serena turned their rivalry right around to win 9 out of their last 12 matches.

 

[BlewByU]

SQA333 said,

" No, it's just that everybody tries to beat her at HER own game, which of course she's better than everybody else at.

Throw in an Andy Murray or Roger Federer-style player in the WTA Tour and Serena would be sent back to tennis school.

Or in her case, prison, after shovelling a tennis ball down a linesman's throat. :lol: "



Post of the Week !!!

. . . . .

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

What makes serena different:

- Serve
- Mental strength

Those 2 are the most important things that makes her a great champ.

She also understands the entire court well, and has never feared the net, which is why she can pick apart players who plant their feet on the baseline, and/or try to blast corners (ex. Kvitova in nearly every match post her lone major title).