Is Sinner a top 50 player of all time in men's tennis?

?


  • Total voters
    94

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
Djokovic
Nadal
Federer
Murray
Sinner
Alcaraz
Hewitt
Kuerten
Safin
Wawrinka

A very sensible list with which everybody with an honest opinion can disagree. Federer might be higher, Hewitt too for now and you could switch Sinneraz or Kuerten and Safin. Shifting within the realm of reality, so to speak.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Best of their era is the only real analysis that counts or stands up to any criticism imo. Comparing players over gaps of multiple decades is just lunacy. It’s fun but it’s ultimately lunacy.
In team sports I don't think there is a GOAT.

In solo sports I think you can argue there is. But it's still very difficult.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
I actually am more confused 24 hours later than I was at the time. I still have yet to find a plausible angle for Dallas that doesn’t involve Luka having some sort of degenerative leg injury or DeShaun Watson scandal

It still feels like an elaborate troll or something. Give up a 25 year old MVP candidate and the face of your team for essentially a 31-32 year old injury prone player (as good as AD is)?

Out of shape accusations I get, Luka could and should be much better in that regard, he fades in the last quarter and doesn't play defense. But he still carried their assess to the finals last year, they got a shot at the ring, they'll bounce out of like 2nd round playoffs without him I expect.

It's definitely one of the most ridiculous trades I've ever seen. They shocked and angered my man Nowitzki by this, it's just unacceptable : )
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
In team sports I don't think there is a GOAT.

In solo sports I think you can argue there is. But it's still very difficult.

Yeah as much it might be fun and as much I might admire MJ and some other guys, getting a ring in NBA still depends on a lot of factors and the team you have around you.

I mean currently what Jokic is doing for example is ridiculous, he's one of the best and most skilled big men in basketball I've ever seen. Yet I doubt he'll ever get another ring but that's largely because he's playing with a really average team, look like he resurrected Westbrook essentially.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
I don't have a clue about NBA other small details and the comments here but I can imagine 6'10 Jokic being a physical freak at his size and a outlier for his time and being a poster for basketball evolution.
 

Kralingen

Bionic Poster
I don't have a clue about NBA other than casual looking occasionally and the comments here but I can imagine 6'10 Jokic being a physical freak and a outlier for his time and being a poster boy for the evolution arguments.
That’s actually a terrible argument though.

He’s big, but he is far from the best athlete at his size. not physically freakish at all, he has a bad vertical and is far from fast or explosive. Guys like Jordan, Shaq, and LeBron absolutely were the best athletes in the NBA, Jokic isn’t. He does use his size and he’s quite agile, but he’s not a freak arhlete by any definition of the word.

He dominates with skill and vision. Probably the smartest offensive player and maybe even the best passer ever.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Yeah, that and being a one surface specialist early on, we could argue he's taken up the torch from Ned. :oops:

Both firmly Top 50. (y)
Nadal's place in history is sealed and it was among the best. But you put Sinner in your top 50 firmly so perhaps 30-40 range?
 
Last edited:

RS

Bionic Poster
That’s actually a terrible argument though.

He’s big, but he is far from the best athlete at his size. not physically freakish at all, he has a bad vertical and is far from fast or explosive. Guys like Jordan, Shaq, and LeBron absolutely were the best athletes in the NBA, Jokic isn’t. He does use his size and he’s quite agile, but he’s not a freak arhlete by any definition of the word.

He dominates with skill and vision. Probably the smartest offensive player and maybe even the best passer ever.
Is he best in the NBA now for you?
 

Kralingen

Bionic Poster
Yeah as much it might be fun and as much I might admire MJ and some other guys, getting a ring in NBA still depends on a lot of factors and the team you have around you.

I mean currently what Jokic is doing for example is ridiculous, he's one of the best and most skilled big men in basketball I've ever seen. Yet I doubt he'll ever get another ring but that's largely because he's playing with a really average team, look like he resurrected Westbrook essentially.
I actually feel about as bad for Jokic as I have for any star in NBA history. I watched them play my home team, Charlotte, on Saturday and Murray was absolutely atrocious. The level he’s playing at is basically where he can get a good shot at will, and his team still looks lost around him. Its not hopeless of course, because that core has at least shown they are capable of winning a title… so it’s still probably a better situation than late 80s Hakeem with the Rockets, the Wolves around KG, 08-10 Wade in Miami, or maybe Cleveland around young LeBron. But watching it, Jokic is playing at such a level where he has to do everything on offense.

I still think they can win the title though despite it all. I’m not sold on OKC, their offense seems fraudulent and they have no one to deal with Jokic.
It still feels like an elaborate troll or something. Give up a 25 year old MVP candidate and the face of your team for essentially a 31-32 year old injury prone player (as good as AD is)?

Out of shape accusations I get, Luka could and should be much better in that regard, he fades in the last quarter and doesn't play defense. But he still carried their assess to the finals last year, they got a shot at the ring, they'll bounce out of like 2nd round playoffs without him I expect.

It's definitely one of the most ridiculous trades I've ever seen. They shocked and angered my man Nowitzki by this, it's just unacceptable : )
My only take is that they have some sort of injury news on Luka or something to that effect (maybe a scandal or alcohol problem) that we don’t know. It’s almost completely inexplicable otherwise.
 

NYTennisfan

Hall of Fame
3 slams, almost a full year at #1, 4 Masters, ATP Finals win. Yeah, probably top 50 worthy already but that's without looking at a rough top 50 list offhand, of course this is all dependent on what happens with the steroid situation. I'd say that his resume currently is similar to Hewitt, would he be considered top 50? Possibly, borderline.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RS

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
A very sensible list with which everybody with an honest opinion can disagree. Federer might be higher, Hewitt too for now and you could switch Sinneraz or Kuerten and Safin. Shifting within the realm of reality, so to speak.

For the bottom 6

SlamsSlam finalsWeeks at number 1Weeks inside top 5YECMastersTitles
Sinner3335711419
Alcaraz44361320516
Hewitt24801842230
Kuerten33431361520
Safin2491410515
Wawrinka3401710116

Sinner has already closed gap on Hewitt and Wawrinka despite being just 23 in terms of titles won.
 

The Guru

Legend
I actually am more confused 24 hours later than I was at the time. I still have yet to find a plausible angle for Dallas that doesn’t involve Luka having some sort of degenerative leg injury or DeShaun Watson scandal
I mean clearly they think they can’t win with Luka - which fwiw is a view I’m actually somewhat sympathetic to. I don’t think Luka is as good as people say. I would trade a 25 year old Luka for a 25 year old AD but I still think he’s a top 5 player that’s 25 years old. You just don’t do this. It’s absolutely mind boggling. You arguably are worse off now and are certainly worse off in the future. This trade is straight up franchise malpractice.
 

struggle

Legend
I'm gonna say yes. And he hasn't reached his ceiling yet.

Beatable? Yes, but not if he's playing his best level. Just my take.

He moves better than anyone I've ever seen, at least on the baseline.
He pins his opponents back with ease. Who is/was better?

I'm not a fan boy, I pull for Tommy Paul. I like cool dudes. But the way i see it,
Sinner is a beast like we have not seen.

YMMV
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Yeah, absolutely.

SGA, Giannis, and a healthy Luka are not far behind, and I think SGA will probably win MVP if his team continues to dominate, but he’s definitely the best.
Is there any young player say 22 and under coming up or around who you think could be the next thing?
 
Being top 50 all-time is simply not an achievement when you're ranked #1.
You'd be playing in the weakest era of all-time if you were ranked #1 and not top 50 all-time!
 

Biotic

Hall of Fame
Nadal's place in history is sealed and it was among the best. But you put Sinner in your top 50 firmly so perhaps 30-40 range?
If he is/was clean he's Top 50.

Unfortunately for him, there will always be that "if". Ned was wrong.
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
For the bottom 6

SlamsSlam finalsWeeks at number 1Weeks inside top 5YECMastersTitles
Sinner3335711419
Alcaraz44361320516
Hewitt24801842230
Kuerten33431361520
Safin2491410515
Wawrinka3401710116

Sinner has already closed gap on Hewitt and Wawrinka despite being just 23 in terms of titles won.

Good List. As you have written before the biggest difference is the trajectory:

Sinner is right now a far stronger player than Hewitt, Kuerten, Safin and Wawrinka were for any prolonged period while improving still.
 

nolefam_2024

Bionic Poster
Good List. As you have written before the biggest difference is the trajectory:

Sinner is right now a far stronger player than Hewitt, Kuerten, Safin and Wawrinka were for any prolonged period while improving still.
I wanted to add the winning % as well but it would not make sense until Sinner and Raz are on tour for majority of their career.

Wawrinka and Safin are low tier players. They are good for individual events. But I could easily see case for Medvedev and Roddick to be above them especially Wawrinka.
 

Rovesciarete

Hall of Fame
I wanted to add the winning % as well but it would not make sense until Sinner and Raz are on tour for majority of their career.

Wawrinka and Safin are low tier players. They are good for individual events. But I could easily see case for Medvedev and Roddick to be above them especially Wawrinka.

Wouldn't call Wawrinka low tier but by non-slam achievements the latter are ahead.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
If he is/was clean he's Top 50.

Unfortunately for him, there will always be that "if". Ned was wrong.
I do agree the doping thing had kinda muddied this. I didn't even think about it before asking.
 

JMR

Hall of Fame
Out of shape accusations I get, Luka could and should be much better in that regard, he fades in the last quarter and doesn't play defense.
I saw one response to the conditioning/weight issue: "He weighs 270 lbs.? Dude can throw down 70 in a game -- I don't care if he weighs 700 lbs.!"
 

Smecz

Professional
Confirms your big misunderstanding, you obviously never heard about the Bortolotti case. Ignorance can be a bliss.…
I read about clostebol, and it can actually be used intentionally or unintentionally, and here is the problem because the cream Trodoferim has been banned since 2020, his fitness coach, did not know about it or was he playing dumb etc?!?!

Why were the tennis players that Darren Cahill trained (and currently trains) caught doping, and I remind you the names: Agassi, Verdasco, Halep, Sinner...?! (A coincidence?!)

This is all suspicious to me, besides, a professional player should know that his team carries the banned cream trodofirm..?!

His fitness coach did not know that it was his banned cream,
since many Italian athletes were caught taking clostebol...

There are so many question marks in this case that it is huge absurd.!!
 

The Guru

Legend
I am confident Wembanyama will be better than Jordan, LeBron, or anyone else ever was.
You're placing an awful lot of faith in the body of a guy with his dimensions. Just that alone scares me away from that sort of claim. I also have questions about him ever developing into a 1st option offensively but that still puts his floor as inner circle HOFer as it stands.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
He is like 7 foot 3 at 21 isn't he?

Yeah I have the height obsession thing.
 
Last edited:

Kralingen

Bionic Poster
You're placing an awful lot of faith in the body of a guy with his dimensions. Just that alone scares me away from that sort of claim. I also have questions about him ever developing into a 1st option offensively but that still puts his floor as inner circle HOFer as it stands.
He’s the best defensive player I’ve ever seen and he’s only 21. He is freakishly unguardable on some actions to the point of comedy. I actually agree with you about the offense but the stats are undeniable and I think his shooting is actually real. If he gets comfortable in the mid post it’s over.

Importantly though, unlike LeBron, Jordan, Wilt, or basically anyone but Duncan/Magic/Bird, he has a star to play with immediately. LBJ and MJ left a lot on the table by carrying crap teams from the lottery to the crown. Their early mid 20s were wasted years with no hope of titles, whereas Wemby will have a real chance. They just stole Fox from Sac for basically nothing (some bums and 3 firsts, except 2 of those firsts are protected and won’t convey anyway), and they have assets to get another alpha player.

I can see a world where he’s the greatest ever. Health concerns obviously are real but I think the Fox trade just significantly changed the trajectory of his career.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
I'm gonna say yes. And he hasn't reached his ceiling yet.

Beatable? Yes, but not if he's playing his best level. Just my take.

He moves better than anyone I've ever seen, at least on the baseline.
He pins his opponents back with ease. Who is/was better?

I'm not a fan boy, I pull for Tommy Paul. I like cool dudes. But the way i see it,
Sinner is a beast like we have not seen.

YMMV
Sad you've seen so little :cry: He's not even the best mover in his own era.
 

The Guru

Legend
He’s the best defensive player I’ve ever seen and he’s only 21. He is freakishly unguardable on some actions to the point of comedy. I actually agree with you about the offense but the stats are undeniable and I think his shooting is actually real. If he gets comfortable in the mid post it’s over.

Importantly though, unlike LeBron, Jordan, Wilt, or basically anyone but Duncan/Magic/Bird, he has a star to play with immediately. LBJ and MJ left a lot on the table by carrying crap teams from the lottery to the crown. Their early mid 20s were wasted years with no hope of titles, whereas Wemby will have a real chance. They just stole Fox from Sac for basically nothing (some bums and 3 firsts, except 2 of those firsts are protected and won’t convey anyway), and they have assets to get another alpha player.

I can see a world where he’s the greatest ever. Health concerns obviously are real but I think the Fox trade just significantly changed the trajectory of his career.
Oh come on I'm super high on Wemby I already think he's a top 10 player and the best defender in the league but best defender you've ever seen? I don't know how old you are but I imagine old enough to have seen prime Duncan/KG. You think Wemby is already past that level that's crazy.

I think even if his shooting is real (which I agree it likely is) it doesn't make him a true number 1 on offense. A slightly above average volume scorer without much creation or offensive rebounding is not a number 1 on offense. He doesn't need to be a true number 1 on offense to be an all time great, half of my top 10 are guys who peaked as 1b offensive generators and if he's going to be a pantheon level defender that's all he'll ever need to be. If he can become a true number 1 on offense though and stay healthy then yeah GOAT is very much on the table.

Are we calling Fox a star now? Is he even a top 30 player? I love the deal for SA but I don't think this move is going to be that sort of move this certainly isn't the Spurs finding his Pippen. Maybe it's them finding his Parker and that's a big deal but SA has plenty of work to do still to make this team a contender imo.
 

Dropshot777

Rookie
At this current stage.
How is Sinner voted yes by the vast majority, while Nole, the man with 24 grand slams who has shattered almost every record in tennis voted borderline. I like Sinner better than Nole, but this does not seem very accurate.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Is he best in the NBA now for you?
Jokic is a unicorn, you'll never again see a big man who passes as amazingly well, pretty sure of that.

He's definitely one of the best players I've ever seen even though as I said, I sincerely doubt he'll get another ring.

It's very hard to do a player vs player comparison in a team sport.
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
Top 50 is not that exclusive if we're talking Open Era. UTS's GOAT list isn't the be-all end-all, but just to get a sense of what we're talking about here, Brian Gottfried clocks in at #50 on that list.
 

Third Serve

Talk Tennis Guru
Like here are players I'd consider top 50 (not in order):

Fed
Ned
Djoker
Pete
Borg
Laver (just on his OE career alone he's still one of the greats)
Connors
Lendl
McEnroe
Agassi
Becker
Edberg
Wilander
Murray
Vilas
Courier
Rosewall
Newcombe
Nastase
Ashe
Roddick
Hewitt
Wawrinka
Kuerten
Kafelnikov
Alcaraz
Chang
Delpo
Safin
Stich
Smith
Krajicek
Ivanisevic
Muster
Gerulaitis
Rafter
Moya
Ferrer
Ferrero
Bruguera
Kodes
Korda
Rios
Mecir
Tsonga
Cilic
Berdych
Medvedev
Thiem
Davydenko

That's 50 players, and while I may have accidentally left some notable players off or overrated a few on this list, I think Sinner definitely deserves a spot here based on his 2024 season and what we've seen of him so far in 2025.
 

FeroBango

Legend
Yeah I imagine most people rank Alcaraz higher so I was gonna ask if he makes top 40 or something. But Sinner is starting to close the gap pretty fast.
The gap is closed. The one slam gap is nearly irrelevant with the dominance Sinner has displayed.

Sad. Wish my boy does some clostebol too the way Sinner has
 
  • Like
Reactions: RS

RS

Bionic Poster
The gap is closed. The one slam gap is nearly irrelevant with the dominance Sinner has displayed.

Sad. Wish my boy does some clostebol too the way Sinner has
Alcaraz needs to get his flow back to stop Sinner. But in the matchup Alcaraz does well and got the better of it in 2024 so he will be fancying it and I imagine it will be another 40+ match rivalry.
 
Top