Is Sinner a top 50 player of all time in men's tennis?

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RS

Bionic Poster
How is Sinner voted yes by the vast majority, while Nole, the man with 24 grand slams who has shattered almost every record in tennis voted borderline. I like Sinner better than Nole, but this does not seem very accurate.
That's a troll thread I think.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Like here are players I'd consider top 50 (not in order):

Fed
Ned
Djoker
Pete
Borg
Laver (just on his OE career alone he's still one of the greats)
Connors
Lendl
McEnroe
Agassi
Becker
Edberg
Wilander
Murray
Vilas
Courier
Rosewall
Newcombe
Nastase
Ashe
Roddick
Hewitt
Wawrinka
Kuerten
Kafelnikov
Alcaraz
Chang
Delpo
Safin
Stich
Smith
Krajicek
Ivanisevic
Muster
Gerulaitis
Rafter
Moya
Ferrer
Ferrero
Bruguera
Kodes
Korda
Rios
Mecir
Tsonga
Cilic
Berdych
Medvedev
Thiem
Davydenko

That's 50 players, and while I may have accidentally left some notable players off or overrated a few on this list, I think Sinner definitely deserves a spot here based on his 2024 season and what we've seen of him so far in 2025.
No mention of Zverev?

Never mind you said you may have left players off the list.
 

Kralingen

Bionic Poster
Oh come on I'm super high on Wemby I already think he's a top 10 player and the best defender in the league but best defender you've ever seen? I don't know how old you are but I imagine old enough to have seen prime Duncan/KG. You think Wemby is already past that level that's crazy.

I think even if his shooting is real (which I agree it likely is) it doesn't make him a true number 1 on offense. A slightly above average volume scorer without much creation or offensive rebounding is not a number 1 on offense. He doesn't need to be a true number 1 on offense to be an all time great, half of my top 10 are guys who peaked as 1b offensive generators and if he's going to be a pantheon level defender that's all he'll ever need to be. If he can become a true number 1 on offense though and stay healthy then yeah GOAT is very much on the table.

Are we calling Fox a star now? Is he even a top 30 player? I love the deal for SA but I don't think this move is going to be that sort of move this certainly isn't the Spurs finding his Pippen. Maybe it's them finding his Parker and that's a big deal but SA has plenty of work to do still to make this team a contender imo.
wait didn’t you say Russell is better than LeBron so why would mediocre offense stop someone from being the GOAT? ;)

I’m probably overreacting but Wembanyama does things no player in NBA history has done or could do. Defensively is he there yet on a consistent night to night basis, no, not like they were, but I think he has the highest defensive ceiling ever. Dude is going to absolutely obliterate blocks records and he seems to be able to get his hands on more than anyone I’ve seen. And he is far from food on the perimeter. The things I’ve seen him do are inhuman. He just turns guys away with the force. I think he will clean up at DPOY for the foreseeable future (which will only inflate his resume and GOAT case)

They just need to get real defenders around him especially another big and it’ll be a perennial elite defense on his back. 4 blocks per game with mucho deflections and all the rim deterrence to go with it. Just unthinkable. That’s my ceiling case and why I say he can surpass MJ/LeBron - his defensive impact will be so ludicrous.

At the same time I actually agree with you I had much lower confidence in their front office before this trade. The Sochan experiment was just embarrassing and their GM seems super high on non-shooters which is a bit of a red flag. Chris Paul (all time great) is doing a ton of heavy lifting for that team functionally which will be hard to replace long term.

Still just getting a Fox this early will really help. I think that’s what was clearly missing in the development environment, someone who can actually profit off wemby’s gravity. His offense is a weird mix between KD and a more traditional big, and imo the self creation from the perimeter is not something I want a 7’4” guy relying on long term. This will get him into more predictable patterns closer to the basket and open up his screening and rolling. I like the move a lot.
 
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RS

Bionic Poster
wait didn’t you say Russell is better than LeBron so why would mediocre offense stop someone from being the GOAT? ;)

I’m probably overreacting but Wembanyama does things no player in NBA history has done or could do. Defensively is he there yet on a consistent night to night basis, no, not like they were, but I think he has the highest defensive ceiling ever. Dude is going to absolutely obliterate blocks records and he seems to be able to get his hands on more than anyone I’ve seen. And he is far from food on the perimeter. The things I’ve seen him do are inhuman. He just turns guys away with the force. I think he will clean up at DPOY for the foreseeable future (which will only inflate his resume and GOAT case)

They just need to get real defenders around him especially another big and it’ll be a perennial elite defense on his back. 4 blocks per game with mucho deflections and all the rim deterrence to go with it. Just unthinkable. That’s my ceiling case and why I say he can surpass MJ/LeBron - his defensive impact will be so ludicrous.

At the same time I actually agree with you I had much lower confidence in their front office before this trade. The Sochan experiment was just embarrassing and their GM seems super high on non-shooters which is a bit of a red flag. Chris Paul (all time great) is doing a ton of heavy lifting for that team functionally which will be hard to replace long term.

Still just getting a Fox this early will really help. I think that’s what was clearly missing in the development environment, someone who can actually profit off wemby’s gravity. His offense is a weird mix between KD and a more traditional big, and imo the self creation from the perimeter is not something I want a 7’4” guy relying on long term. This will get him into more predictable patterns closer to the basket and open up his screening and rolling. I like the move a lot.
Michael Jordan in today's NBA how does he do?
 

dking68

Legend
If healthy I think this is a virtual lock based on his likely future hard court success alone, he's not that far off on clay and grass either. Definitely on a top 10-15 trajectory and on a top 5 of all time on Hard Courts trajectory.
You realize top 5 on hardcourt is 6 slams? Sinner will be a top three hardcourter of all time I think
 

NYTennisfan

Hall of Fame
You realize top 5 on hardcourt is 6 slams? Sinner will be a top three hardcourter of all time I think
I'm saying top 5 conservatively and it's best to not be too outlandish when making projections. He certainly has the skillset to be top 3 but injuries, regressions after peak, dedication falling off perhaps, tougher eras potentially are hard to project so I go top 5. Sinner is great but he's had to navigate a very weak field in his last 2 slam wins, I'd like to see what he can do when being tested more. Would have been nice to see Alcaraz not poop his pants in the last 2 slams and Djokovic's body not get old all of a sudden. Not much high level competition on the tour right now outside of those two and Zverev on a good day.
 

NatF

Bionic Poster
You realize top 5 on hardcourt is 6 slams? Sinner will be a top three hardcourter of all time I think
HC is relatively recent compared to tennis history, guys like Lendl, Mac, Connors, Laver etc...would have quite a few more HC slams if they were available for their whole primes. Going by titles he may well reach that high but that's not necessarily fair to some of the older timers.
 

dking68

Legend
I'm saying top 5 conservatively and it's best to not be too outlandish when making projections. He certainly has the skillset to be top 3 but injuries, regressions after peak, dedication falling off perhaps, tougher eras potentially are hard to project so I go top 5. Sinner is great but he's had to navigate a very weak field in his last 2 slam wins, I'd like to see what he can do when being tested more. Would have been nice to see Alcaraz not poop his pants in the last 2 slams and Djokovic's body not get old all of a sudden. Not much high level competition on the tour right now outside of those two and Zverev on a good day.
Is that his fault? Zverev is number 2 and couldn’t even generate a breakbpoint
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Yeah as much it might be fun and as much I might admire MJ and some other guys, getting a ring in NBA still depends on a lot of factors and the team you have around you.

I mean currently what Jokic is doing for example is ridiculous, he's one of the best and most skilled big men in basketball I've ever seen. Yet I doubt he'll ever get another ring but that's largely because he's playing with a really average team, look like he resurrected Westbrook essentially.
I apply that to Messi as well who is like the most widely considered GOAT in the most popular sport with the biggest pool.
 

NYTennisfan

Hall of Fame
Is that his fault? Zverev is number 2 and couldn’t even generate a breakbpoint
Not his fault and he was absolutely dominant but there's not much doubt that his draws fell favorably the last 2 slams. It's a combination of tennis being in a bit of a down period and the other top guys not making it to him in the last two slams.
 

Sport

G.O.A.T.
[Jokoc is] maybe even the best passer ever.
You forgot my boy Stockton...

Only man to average 14,5 assists per game during a season, which is a monstruosity. We talking about Wilt's surreal numbers but in assists. Stockton' all-time record in assists and steals cannot be touched.

Stockton may not be the most complete point guard ever, you can prefer Magic, Curry, Nash, etc., over him, but strictly as a passer, he was below no one.
 

dking68

Legend
Not his fault and he was absolutely dominant but there's not much doubt that his draws fell favorably the last 2 slams. It's a combination of tennis being in a bit of a down period and the other top guys not making it to him in the last two slams.
Alcaraz and Djokovic were on the opposite half and Djo is 38 years old. Did you really see him defeating three top three players in a row at this very old age if he wasn’t able to do it in his 20’s at a GS?
 

Kralingen

Bionic Poster
With defensive rules being lessened in todays' game, Jordan would absolutely feast. He had to navigate a much tougher league physically in the 80s and 90s.
lol please. I was kinda trolling but the league was not tougher. The league was clearly way less talented and athletic back then. Wing defenders of Jordan’s athletic profile are much more common now. Pretty much every team has a defensive stopper to put on him which would be longer and more athletic than the 90s equivalent.

Defenses are more complex because there isn’t an illegal defense rule anymore, he’d see doubles and hedges and shading and it wouldn’t be as straightforward for him as it was back then. Also… Jordan got a lot of foul calls in his era. He was consistently among the league leaders in FTA and FTR especially among perimeter players.

The case for Jordan being better today is that he’d have more spacing and better offensive players to play off of. It is NOT that defenses would be worse.

I’m all for the Jordan hype but if you try and tell me the 80s/90s NBA was tougher than today that’s just flat out BS. Anyways…

I will assume that's great but not up with the very best?
It is up with the very best. I’m just winding Guru up.

Being serious his lack of 3 point shooting ability would be a question mark in this era. Most just hand wave away him adjusting but there’s a lot of evidence to suggest it would NOT be something he’d easily figure out either. Only with the shortened line was he ever truly comfortable from that range and he somehow shoots a worse 3 point percentage than you’d think. It’s a real mechanical thing too his shot trajectory was very much flat and not built for deep range.

I think he’d be amazing of course, likely an equivalent player to SGA in most outcomes. Do I think he’d be better, possibly but it’s really hard to outdo current Shai Gilgeous-Alexander.
 
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NYTennisfan

Hall of Fame
lol please. I was kinda trolling but the league was not tougher. The league was clearly way less talented and athletic back then. Wing defenders of Jordan’s athletic profile are much more common now. Pretty much every team has a defensive stopper to put on him which would be longer and more athletic than the 90s equivalent.

Defenses are more complex because there isn’t an illegal defense rule anymore, he’d see doubles and hedges and shading and it wouldn’t be as straightforward for him as it was back then. Also… Jordan got a lot of foul calls in his era. He was consistently among the league leaders in FTA and FTR especially among perimeter players.

The case for Jordan being better today is that he’d have more spacing and better offensive players to play off of. It is NOT that defenses would be worse.

I’m all for the Jordan hype but if you try and tell me the 80s/90s NBA was tougher than today that’s just flat out BS. Anyways…
The league was absolutely tougher back then. Much more physical, hand checking making it a pain for skilled players to get to their spots, big men actually played like big men. Players had to work much harder for offense back then.

Also, no not many players had Jordan's physical profile, his athletic gifts were generational especially in the first half of his career, and absolutely nobody had his work ethic and competitiveness, not to mention his insanely high Basketball IQ.
Yeah he would have had to adjust his game for the new era to become more perimeter oriented but a competitor of the highest order like Jordan would dominate any era, much like Djokovic who has a very similar almost insane competitive drive, to be the very best at what he does that is unmatched.
 

dking68

Legend
Higher peak plus atp finals.

They should be very close. Sinner seems better.
Sinner will pass Raz in terms of weeks at #1. If Sinner wins the sunshine double and a clay court masters, I think there’s no argument. And we both know he’s winning either WB/RG this year
 

Winner Sinner

Hall of Fame
Saying that Jordan in this era would have been a Donovan Mitchell-level player, I think I've heard it all.
Even today there is no athletic guard with Jordan's basketball IQ and fundamentals, not to mention his competitive wickedness.
And this is coming from someone who is not convinced that Jordan is the GOAT of basketball, but certainly due to his combination of skills he would have dominated in any era, including the current one, only having to adapt to a game more focused on 3-point shooting, but as demonstrated by various Leonard, Butler and SGA, in current basketball you can be devastating even with a comfort zone in the mid-range.
 

RS

Bionic Poster
Excellent, unique player. Pretty much all of the past ATGs would still be elite today. I think Larry’s shooting would shine even more today, as would a player like Jerry West
Any players not suited to NBA today who you think would tear it up in past era's?
 

Poisoned Slice

Bionic Poster
I think after WC 22 is hard to argue for him. Feel like Messi wrapped it up there.

''I think I'm the most complete player to have existed. In my opinion, I think it's me. I do everything well in football: with my head, free-kicks, left foot. I'm fast, I'm strong.

"One thing is taste. If you like Messi, Pele, [Diego] Maradona, I understand that and I respect that, but saying Ronaldo isn't complete - I'm the most complete. I haven't seen anybody better than me and I say it from the heart."
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Is Ronaldo right? Who is the most complete player in history? Let us know your thoughts below...''
 

RS

Bionic Poster
The league was absolutely tougher back then. Much more physical, hand checking making it a pain for skilled players to get to their spots, big men actually played like big men. Players had to work much harder for offense back then.

Also, no not many players had Jordan's physical profile, his athletic gifts were generational especially in the first half of his career, and absolutely nobody had his work ethic and competitiveness, not to mention his insanely high Basketball IQ.
Yeah he would have had to adjust his game for the new era to become more perimeter oriented but a competitor of the highest order like Jordan would dominate any era, much like Djokovic who has a very similar almost insane competitive drive, to be the very best at what he does that is unmatched.
I hear the rules change changed basketball for the worse. Is that also true?
 

Pheasant

Legend
I'd put Sinner in the top-50 easily. He's doing things that are extremely rare, such was winning a hard court slam + the WTF in the same calendar year. Only Djoker and Federer have done that. He's won 3 straight hard court slams. Only Djoker, Federer, Lendl, and McEnroe have done that. He's had a 70-win and .900 season. That also puts him in rare territory.

I'd say that as a worst-case scenario, Sinner is #33. Here are 32 players that I might put ahead of him(most of this list, but maybe not all). And if he bags another slam title, then at least a handful would drop off of this list.

Djoker
laver
Federer
Pancho
Nadal
Sampras
Borg
Rosewall
Emerson
John Newcombe
Lendl
McEnroe
Connors
Agassi
Becker
Edberg
Wilander
Arthur Ashe
Hoad
Kramer
Tilden
Budge
Perry
Renshaw
Sears
Laurence Doherty
Wilding
Wawrinka
Murray
Courier
Hewitt
Alcaraz
 

ibbi

G.O.A.T.
By my count, between the amateur era, pro slams, and into the Open era, there are 48 men who have won majors on more than one surface.

While I can acknowledge he'd blow most of them off the court, I think it is worth acknowledging that there are that many dudes who have accomplished a significant feat (that used to be more significant than it is today) that he has yet to.

Rene Lacoste
Henri Cochet
Jean Borotra
Jack Crawford
Fred Perry
Don Budge
Frank Parker
Budge Patty
Jaroslav Drobny
Ken Rosewall
Tony Trabert
Lew Hoad
Mervyn Rose
Manolo Santana
Rod Laver
Roy Emerson
Fred Stolle
----------------------
Bill Tilden
Karel Kozeluh
Hans Nusslein
Ellsworth Vines
Jack Kramer
Pancho Segura
Pancho Gonzales
Alex Olmedo
Frank Sedgman
Mal Anderson
----------------------
Jan Kodes
Ilie Nastase
Bjorn Borg
Jimmy Connors
John McEnroe
Guillermo Vilas
Mats Wilander
Ivan Lendl
Boris Becker
Stefan Edberg
Jim Courier
Pete Sampras
Andre Agassi
Yevgeny Kafelnikov
Lleyton Hewitt
Roger Federer
Rafael Nadal
Andy Murray
Stan Wawrinka
Novak Djokovic
Carlos Alcaraz
 
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RS

Bionic Poster
I'd put Sinner in the top-50 easily. He's doing things that are extremely rare, such was winning a hard court slam + the WTF in the same calendar year. Only Djoker and Federer have done that. He's won 3 straight hard court slams. Only Djoker, Federer, Lendl, and McEnroe have done that. He's had a 70-win and .900 season. That also puts him in rare territory.

I'd say that as a worst-case scenario, Sinner is #33. Here are 32 players that I might put ahead of him(most of this list, but maybe not all). And if he bags another slam title, then at least a handful would drop off of this list.

Djoker
laver
Federer
Pancho
Nadal
Sampras
Borg
Rosewall
Emerson
John Newcombe
Lendl
McEnroe
Connors
Agassi
Becker
Edberg
Wilander
Arthur Ashe
Hoad
Kramer
Tilden
Budge
Perry
Renshaw
Sears
Laurence Doherty
Wilding
Wawrinka
Murray
Courier
Hewitt
Alcaraz
So you probably would put him 25-30ish being honest.
 
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