One Handed Dynasty
Semi-Pro
And you feel the need to turn this into a racial argument why? For someone so concerned with privilege and equality you seem awfully quick to divide people by their skin color put out negative stereotypes.
Is Tennis A Sport of Privilege and Status?
- Thread starter bobleenov1963
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And you feel the need to turn this into a racial argument why? For someone so concerned with privilege and equality you seem awfully quick to divide people by their skin color put out negative stereotypes.
randomtoss
Semi-Pro
These sports are extremely niche and don't put tennis in the mean.
In Britain the answer is yes. There is a huge divide between the haves and have nots. The public courts in the UK are rotting, they are mainly tarmac and if you're lucky, hard courts. Most are in a poor state of repair, with cracks, in some cases pot holes. Nets are full of holes, at the incorrect height and held together with improvised bits of Macgyving. With courts covered in moss, mud and poorly maintained.
To play seriously involves club membership and due to the British climate, a club with indoor courts. Such clubs are extremely expensive to be a member of and limit those who can play. The LTA, which runs the game in Britain, is very class ridden. Mainly dominated by public school boys and girls from the South East of England. The organisation is well funded thanks to Wimbledon and tennis in the UK sees little benefit from the funding.
The old boys and girls run the LTA as a social club and are very poor at running the game in the UK.
To play seriously involves club membership and due to the British climate, a club with indoor courts. Such clubs are extremely expensive to be a member of and limit those who can play. The LTA, which runs the game in Britain, is very class ridden. Mainly dominated by public school boys and girls from the South East of England. The organisation is well funded thanks to Wimbledon and tennis in the UK sees little benefit from the funding.
The old boys and girls run the LTA as a social club and are very poor at running the game in the UK.
movdqa
Talk Tennis Guru
That's a shame as I think of tennis as originally British.
In my area (New Hampshire), we have a lot of public courts in bad shape but we have a decent number of public courts in good shape having been resurfaced within the past decades. Nets are generally in good shape. Each city or town decides how much it wants to spend on tennis courts. The city I grew up in has a lot of tennis courts and they are in good shape. My local club is $50/month and $12/hour but it gives you a lot more than just tennis (basketball, pickleball, indoor track, cardio room, weight room classroom, spinning, pool) but you can get buy with membership for five months and playing outdoors the rest of the year.
I know a player who is a bus driver and he plays at this club in the wintertime so it is possible to play here without a big income.
You cant really play outside of this settings in most cases.
Tennis is set up in a way of a pyramid sceme.
If lets say a kid wants to play and compete.
Its all very difficult to next to impossible if he wants to try serious tennis without being very rich.
Unless the kid is genius lvl.
Slowtwitcher
Legend
Fantasy world indeed...
let's hope he/she doesn't forget to include the Ferrari / Lambo / Porsche in that photo
good shoes are fairly expensive, and you need to refresh them much more often then tennis rackets
apparently yes.
I hear more and more about 'how to run' programs & coaching, because apparently with more technology, kids these days don't know how to run...
tennis tom
Legend
Well said! :
bobleenov1963
Hall of Fame
I am getting paid by your hard earned tax money because my work is contracted with the Federal Government, and it is Cocoa beach not Boca. Yes, the boss is well aware of it.
tennis tom
Legend
No. And for the love of god - will people learn the meaning of privilege. Privilege means that you should have some exclusive advantage for whatever special status you have. Things that are NOT available to others because they are NOT privileged.
For example the President has the privilege of flying on Airforce whenever he wants to get some where. It's a privilege only for him. Another more mundane example is a golf club member who pays extra might have the privilege of playing golf on that course in prime time - only if he pays certain amounts of dues. He gets some status like "super premium member" and hence gets some club privileges!
This doesn't mean the rich don't have advantages in sports. Though tennis is hardly one of them. Racquets and balls are cheap. The fact that it is not a team sport - and is not subsidized means in general only the wealthy can afford fancy lessons. Lessons which seem to do hardly any good for American Tennis - but I digress.. But it is NOT privilege. Its not a caste system where ONLY the rich can play tennis because of privilege.
The entire use of the world privilege is to hit people over the head with notions of equality because some people have advantages. But advantages ARE NOT THE SAME as privileges! There is no special club we exclusively get to use where we can play tennis because of any status... Likewise being tall, fast, coordinated, strong, fit, mentally tough are all "advantages" not privileges. Money is another advantage to some extent - but hardly as important as those others..
For example the President has the privilege of flying on Airforce whenever he wants to get some where. It's a privilege only for him. Another more mundane example is a golf club member who pays extra might have the privilege of playing golf on that course in prime time - only if he pays certain amounts of dues. He gets some status like "super premium member" and hence gets some club privileges!
This doesn't mean the rich don't have advantages in sports. Though tennis is hardly one of them. Racquets and balls are cheap. The fact that it is not a team sport - and is not subsidized means in general only the wealthy can afford fancy lessons. Lessons which seem to do hardly any good for American Tennis - but I digress.. But it is NOT privilege. Its not a caste system where ONLY the rich can play tennis because of privilege.
The entire use of the world privilege is to hit people over the head with notions of equality because some people have advantages. But advantages ARE NOT THE SAME as privileges! There is no special club we exclusively get to use where we can play tennis because of any status... Likewise being tall, fast, coordinated, strong, fit, mentally tough are all "advantages" not privileges. Money is another advantage to some extent - but hardly as important as those others..
If I were in your place, I wouldn't be so proud of wasting the money of my country fellows.
Because of folks like you, the Empire will collapse, just like every other empire did.
It was built when people were more efficient than others.
And it will collapse when it won't be able to sustain certain things.
You, and folks like you with your proud about delivering always way past beyond deadline, and exceeding the budget at a multiple factor are playing into the not being able to sustain critical needs.
Be happy if the empire doesn't collapse during your lifetime, but I really doubt that your kids won't have to pay back because of mistakes done by you and your fellows
Znak
Hall of Fame
I dont know if you all live in sunny warm parts of the earth, but winter tennis here is most definitely one of privilege: $400 for the winter season (which is around 4 months here) + $20/hr. Assuming you're playing twice a week for two hours a session = $1680... That's not cheap. Not all families or individuals can afford that, and that is socio-economic privilege. It's not as simple as saying to go out and get a job...
But I will agree on the point someone else made about whether or not we're defining this as just a sport to play recreationally or to develop professionally (or even in between) because those are different things.
Also to add to this point of accessibility, in the entire city where I live there are only 52 public tennis courts in contrast to 237 baseball diamonds
But I will agree on the point someone else made about whether or not we're defining this as just a sport to play recreationally or to develop professionally (or even in between) because those are different things.
Also to add to this point of accessibility, in the entire city where I live there are only 52 public tennis courts in contrast to 237 baseball diamonds
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tennis tom
Legend
Tattoos cost money, booze costs money, drugs cost money--playing tennis indoors in the winter costs money--someone has to pay for the heat--solar & windmills don't work in the snow-- welcome to the REAL world--if u want to play u gotz to PAY!--ass, gas or grass, but no one rides for free--comrade Bernie got kicked out of the commune because he wouldn't do his fair share of the work, all he wanted to do was TALK!
If u hate the "privileged" for having built their own clubs build one of your own!--or is that outside of your capabilities?
If u hate the "privileged" for having built their own clubs build one of your own!--or is that outside of your capabilities?
But you don’t have to play 12 months a year to enjoy the sport recreationally. A lot of sports are seasonal.
Znak
Hall of Fame
That is not true. I personally know about upcoming juniors whose coaching and tournaments have been supported by the USTA. As they get older, they can even train at USTA National Centers with a shared coach and fitness staff. Many pros have used that at some point of their journey. The myth that only other countries have government subsidizing sports is a beloved myth. The US subsidizes college sports which often leads to the pro leagues and the Olympics, and also through US Olympics Training Centers and National Tennis Centers through quasi-government bodies like the USTA, if not outright. These organizations also help in coordinating private sponsorships for the teams by begging or bullying corporations, and though the money is "private," these bodies get it in a collective way and funnel them to the athletes.
tennis tom
Legend
Oh yes it is!--u don't have to work harder necessarily--work smarter!--invest!--there are plenty of books out there on it--when u quit LOL, start with a book by Peter Lynch. Although if you're in kali the dumber you are the more money u can make--in kali it's a hindrance to making money if u think too much.
i think the difference in what someone defines as "higher level"
many people will play for lessons to get to the 3.5 or 4.0 level (to many ntrp4.0 is a "high" level)
not many people will pay for a coach to just complete a marathon (even at a decent 4h pace)...
i think long distance folks will pay for a coach to say break through the sub-elite level (eg. <2h 20min)... but that's the equiv of like an ntrp6.0-6.5 trying to break through to 7.0
i have a handful of friends/acquaintances that have gotten to the sub-elite (2h 3) through sheer effort determination (equiv to an ntrp6.0)
i have never heard of anyone getting to the ntrp5.0 level without any instruction... i'd say 95% of folks at the ntrp4.0 level have had some kind of instruction
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Znak
Hall of Fame
You're out of touch with the world...
yossarian
Professional
Imagine you are a child interested in playing tennis. Imagine your parents are struggling to make ends meet
Want to learn how to play? There’s the self taught route, but clearly the majority of promising players take lessons from a young age. Coaching rates when I was a kid ranged from 60-80 for an hour, but I knew someone who charged upwards of 200 for the hour.
Now you don’t need private lessons every day, but I knew some young kids/teenagers who would get lessons 3-4 times per week. And the rest of the days are filled by playing in clinics, which also cost money, or by playing with friends (free). Still, the cost adds up
You want to play in tournaments? Guess what? They cost money. Want to play in higher level tournaments? Guess what? You have to travel, which costs money
Want to play year round? Have to pay for court time in the winter.
Racquets and balls are “cheap?” In the long run, I guess that’s the case. But strings are not. A talented kid playing 4-5x a week will probably break them on a weekly basis, if not more frequently. The stringers around here charge around 30 dollars for a strong job depending on the string choice
Shoes wear out and need to be replaced. Very expensive
Tennis is absolutely easier to get ahead in if you come from a wealthy background. It is absolutely a sport of privilege. Of course, there are exceptions, and there is a tennis center in the city (I presume the same model exists elsewhere) which subsidizes rates and offers cheap programs for inner city children. But how can you legitimately think the sport is equally accessible to anyone regardless of their SES? Serious inquiry
Want to learn how to play? There’s the self taught route, but clearly the majority of promising players take lessons from a young age. Coaching rates when I was a kid ranged from 60-80 for an hour, but I knew someone who charged upwards of 200 for the hour.
Now you don’t need private lessons every day, but I knew some young kids/teenagers who would get lessons 3-4 times per week. And the rest of the days are filled by playing in clinics, which also cost money, or by playing with friends (free). Still, the cost adds up
You want to play in tournaments? Guess what? They cost money. Want to play in higher level tournaments? Guess what? You have to travel, which costs money
Want to play year round? Have to pay for court time in the winter.
Racquets and balls are “cheap?” In the long run, I guess that’s the case. But strings are not. A talented kid playing 4-5x a week will probably break them on a weekly basis, if not more frequently. The stringers around here charge around 30 dollars for a strong job depending on the string choice
Shoes wear out and need to be replaced. Very expensive
Tennis is absolutely easier to get ahead in if you come from a wealthy background. It is absolutely a sport of privilege. Of course, there are exceptions, and there is a tennis center in the city (I presume the same model exists elsewhere) which subsidizes rates and offers cheap programs for inner city children. But how can you legitimately think the sport is equally accessible to anyone regardless of their SES? Serious inquiry
yossarian
Professional
Spot on. Cut back on luxuries like food and water and housing to afford to pay for your child’s tennis development
bobleenov1963
Hall of Fame
Do not blame me because I am just the messenger. The US Federal Government is like a 800 lbs gorilla moving at a snail speed. It is the federal government that is wasting its citizens money.
I'll give you an example: I am currently working on a project contract with the US government. The problem is that the government really does not know what it really wants. Requirements are constantly changing. In the middle of the project, the funding run out and it took months to get renewed because of changes between the Trump and Biden Administration. Since there is no funding to continue the project, we are told not to continue the project and just in support mode. In other words, just sit back and support but there isn't much to support and yet, we're still getting paid. The government person who is in charge of the project does not know whether the project should continue because his boss is still waiting for confirmation from the US Senate and that the acting head does not want to make this important decision until the permanent head of the department is confirmed and in charge.
That being said, I am not worried about the US collapse in the next 100 years. Others countries will be in trouble way before the US.
This is all true which is why the discussion is nuanced. It is a sport of privilege on a certain level but also it is accessible for most people to play recreationally (at least in U.S). This is not the case with a sport like Golf which truly is a sport of privilege.
tennis tom
Legend
Apply for food stamps, SSI and section 8 housing--u can spend your cash on tattoos, booze, drugs
and guitar pics. 99% of tour players came from poor to average monetary backgrounds--their PARENTS taught them to play!--I see it everyday. Gulbis is one of the only one's who comes from wealth. Being from the "rich" is a hindrance to becoming a tennis pro--u guys have NO clue what your talking about!--keep reading your Atlantic Monthlys and New Yorkers for your distorted views on reality.
tennis tom
Legend
Really! TW's dad was in the military. The Korda sisters's dad was a tennis player not a Rockefeller.
I think most people who get really good get good regardless of training.
I also snowboard, beyond basic lessons the pros get good by doing it lots and being talented, not by some coach breaking down the minutiae of technique.
Seriously? Apparently you’ll argue anything
tennis tom
Legend
"Privilege" is sitting around a computer all day spouting nonsense on message boards on the boss's or taxpayers' dimes, contributing NOTHING to the general welfare.
Znak
Hall of Fame
bahaha says the senile old man over here...
yossarian
Professional
Lol is this self referential
Znak
Hall of Fame
I think he was yelling it to himself in the mirror
tennis tom
Legend
As Aussie Dorsey would say; "U need to educate yourself--now APOLOGIZE!"
"Early Life
Eldrick Tont Woods, better known as Tiger Woods, was born on December 30, 1975, in Cypress, California, the only child of an African American Army officer father and a Thai mother. When Woods was a child, his father began calling him "Tiger" in honor of a fellow soldier and friend who had the same moniker.
As a young boy, Woods learned to play golf. His father, Earl, served as his teacher and mentor. By the age of eight, Woods had become extremely proficient at the game, even showing off his skills on television shows such as Good Morning America."
tennis tom
Legend
no! it's obviously U.
yossarian
Professional
Are you saying that just because Woods is half blacked he came from a low income background?
yossarian
Professional
what do you do for a living, tom
Znak
Hall of Fame
That in itself is a privilege. Also why are you asking for people to apologize to you are you that fragile?
bobleenov1963
Hall of Fame
Have you ever been to a junior USTA tournament? Most people there drive Mercedes, Tesla, BMW, etc.. They look UMC class to me
giantschwinn
Semi-Pro
This shows you that not even money can buy you a text book forehand.
bobleenov1963
Hall of Fame
Again, , depend on where you live, golf might not be a sport of privilege. In Fairfax County Virginia or Montgomery County Maryland, there are plenty of public golf courses available for residents to play. You can get a 9 hole round of golf for $18, $13 if you're under 18 years old. A 18 hole round of golf in Fairfax County will go round $24, $20 if you're under 18 years old. Of course, public tennis courts in both Fairfax and Montgomery Counties are free but golf in those counties are very affordable.
Dartagnan64
G.O.A.T.
Thats why those sports are elite. Elite rich people are also niche.
You don't see kids in the slums playing golf. They will play soccer and basketball. might even see some baseball and football or rugby amongst the unwashed. Golf is generally at the least a middle to upper middle class endeavour at the public level. It the club level it's pretty privileged.
[QUOTE
Well privilege can be defined differently but if someone wants to play golf 4 or 5 times a week that will generally get expensive vs potentially nothing to play tennis
What have you proved?
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
So it isn't a belief that tennis is privledged, which was the questions, but just that America and first world countries are privileged. Complete different perspective for the argument. Makes no sense to have that discussion.
Yeah he is old and repeats the same thing he has been saying for the last 70 years. In CA, it is the smart people with new ideas who make tons of money, and this has led to a vast income gap. In other states, everyone is dumb and dependent on CA contributions for federal handouts so there is more "equality." These are actually socialist states whose low or zero income tax and low industrial activity is subsidized by smart people in CA and similar states. Some of them post here without realizing TW is headquartered in SLO! It is such companies with pioneering online business models which provide employment and generate wealth and grow the industry. Some of the other states generate money but pollute the environment big time with oil and coal - not the way to go.
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I volunteer for two junior USTA tournaments at my club every year and don't see this. Many of the top juniors have parents who are hardly making it. Seen a few where father quit his job to help his kid in tennis and family lives on income from mother who is in a low level service job.
I am not blaming you personally for the troubles US is into.
All I am saying is that if I was in your place, I wouldn't be proud and shouting out loud that look how cool am I cause I am milking the budget.
And it's your choice if you want to believe that the empire will be there forever.
No empire has seen its collapse and refused to act on it.
They all were foolish enough to believe that the empire will survive but it didn't.
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Nadal is a poor family?
or perhaps Federer comes from a poor family?
even Djokovic family wasn't that poor. Of course all in relative terms.
To begin with, they had a business.
To continue with, if rumours about Srdjan borrowing money from mafia are true, he needed something as collateral. I hope you don't believe that Serbian mafia sponsored Novak cause they believed in his talent.
Tsitsipas.
Stefanos father left his work some 10-12 years ago, isn't it? to be able to train his kid.
By the way, Stefanos isn't the only kid, they are 2 or 3 brothers. At least 2 of them play tennis.
Can you tell me how to finance my family for 10 years, without work, spending all my time on training my kids to play tennis?
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