Is The American Dream A Lie? Talent Will Win In The End

[Kevo]

It is the ideal that every US citizen should have an equal opportunity to achieve success.

Don't invent stuff, Kevo

I'd be surprised if a majority of people thought the American Dream had nothing to do with achieving success. That makes no sense to me at all.

I'm also not sure what you think I invented.

I said in my post previous to the one you quoted, "The American dream is more about people without those advantages can still make something of themselves by hard work and determination. And that is of course still true because there are so many opportunities."

So to me the American Dream is not an ideal, it's a reality. Ideally everyone would have an equal opportunity, but as I mention before equality can only ever be an ideal, not a reality. Some people are born to be 6'10" when the grow up. If I were 6' 10" and still had the serve technique I have today, I could have been John Isner. The fact is there is no such thing as equality and that's how it should be. In any case, I agree with the ideal, but reality doesn't care about ideals. It simply is.

 

[Kevo]

@Kevo @5263

MLK Jr. was not liberal in the modern sense?

I mean modern as in present day. Maybe that clears it up? If not, please give me a good example of someone you consider liberal in the present day. Maybe that will help me understand where you're coming from. Liberal is kind of a loaded term these days. It might even be better for me to just avoid using it. I consider classical liberalism with much regard and present day liberalism not so much, but it's a term that has morphed in usage.

Also, MLK Jr. took his cues of character and civil disobedience from Jesus who is the ideal example of such morality in the hearts and minds of many. So while MLK jr may have been advanced compared to many in his day his beliefs were firmly rooted in ancient history.

 

[5263]

@Kevo @5263

MLK Jr. was not liberal in the modern sense?

That's laughable. His ideas of equality and civil disobedience, come up over half a century ago, were so far advanced into the future that even today they are still not achievable, well, maybe a tiny bit. By this rate, it's gonna take a few more centuries to get anywhere meaningful. The next two years or possibly 6 years are freaking toast! LOL. Major step back.

"What the American Dream is about as I stated, which was hinted at by the OP to some degree, is the fact that anyone with hard work and determination can succeed in America, where success is not defined by being the absolute best. "

NO. Just NO.

Suresh got it right (in a different thread). The American Dream is not about hard work and success. It is the ideal that every US citizen should have an equal opportunity to achieve success.

Don't invent stuff, Kevo





5263, "...pushing for Equal outcomes .....but I guess you can see why ... can't see the problem with it, they are not ....much without it being handed to them. "
What the heck are you talking about? Stop being cryptic, nobody can read your mind. You have to elaborate if you want some serious discussion.

I'm not trying to be cryptic and don't assume anyone cares what I think. I mention some points that some will get because they are up on the info and others can ask questions if they have an interest. I don't always have time to write a book on things or expect other posters want me to...You can't please everybody and that is part of this American Dream discussion. Some will never be happy no matter what progress is made. You say the problem is the next 6yrs, but I think it was the previous administration where the big move backwards took place. Minority full time employment has greatly improved in this administration.

We should work for opportunity, not for equal outcomes.....how is that cryptic? First off, equal is not even real in the marketplace. Opportunity is the right and best you can go for. MLK was for Opportunity, not outcomes....Outcomes should be decided as they fall. Propping up outcomes is a path to failure. Pushing for Equal outcomes is handing out an outcome where none was deserved....trophies for everybody....

 

[mcs1970]

@Kevo : You are correct that when you say someone has realized the American Dream it does imply success. However, it's not correct that mere hard work will set you up for the American Dream. If so, so many blue collar workers wouldn't be facing a bleak future. Heck, even many white collar workers struggle to save despite putting long hours at the office. As the E-trade commercial says, the harder you work, the nicer the vacation your boss goes on.

What is true here is, as sureshs said, that as opposed to many other places, more people have the opportunity to realize that dream of making it without running into systemic roadblocks . However, it's a different story whether you'll make it or not, and that does depend upon many other factors than just hard work.

 

[Kevo]

@mcs1970

Yes, I think what I've said previously pretty much indicates we agree on the important points. I'll just say in my previous remarks I did not mean to indicate that the American Dream being a reality implies that it's available to everyone in any circumstance. That's certainly not the case and was not intended to be inferred by what I wrote earlier.

 

[MathGeek]

I tell my students (all subjects and sports) that being in the top 1% in natural gifting and the top 1% in effort will yield a top 1 in 10,000 outcome.

Being in the top 10% in gifting and the top 10% in effort will only yield a top 1 in 100 outcome.

Students and athletes need to find their niches where their natural gifting will combine with the effort they are willing to expend to accomplish the outcome they desire.

For example, one needs a top 1 in 10,000 outcome (approximately) to get a tennis scholarship to a D1 school. If they are honest, most tennis pros and high school coaches can tell an athlete whether or not they are a top 1% in gifting. But then, what does a top 1% in effort look like? In tennis, it looks like homeschooling to have enough time for tennis practice, 20 hours a week of tennis practice, and several grand a year in coaching. Not likely worth the effort, even for the top 1% in gifting. However, even if one makes a DI team, most top 1% D1 players will go nowhere as pros.

No, anyone cannot succeed at anything. A person needs a decent assessment of their inherent abilities and niches in which they are likely to succeed with sufficient effort, along with an honest accounting of what that effort is likely to look like.



But take something else like science. All you likely need for a full ride academic scholarship is to be top 1%. Top 10% in gifting and top 10% in effort will likely bring home the bacon. What does that look like? Top 10% in gifting is an IQ of about 120, or the 90th percentile in math and science scores. Top 10% in effort looks like about 10-15 hours a week of homework in high school and maybe some special clubs or projects averaging another hour or two a week. Now, major in science or engineering. Most top 1% college grads will have plenty of lucrative job offers waiting at graduation.

The American Dream works. But it helps to do a bit of math on the odds you need for success when you pick an area to succeed in. Becoming a successful pro tennis player is worse than 1 in a million. Becoming president is about 1 in 50 million. The odds of being a successful entrepreneur, engineer, plumber, or scientist are much better.

 

[user92626]

I'd be surprised if a majority of people thought the American Dream had nothing to do with achieving success. That makes no sense to me at all.

I'm also not sure what you think I invented.

I said in my post previous to the one you quoted, "The American dream is more about people without those advantages can still make something of themselves by hard work and determination. And that is of course still true because there are so many opportunities."

So to me the American Dream is not an ideal, it's a reality. Ideally everyone would have an equal opportunity, but as I mention before equality can only ever be an ideal, not a reality. Some people are born to be 6'10" when the grow up. If I were 6' 10" and still had the serve technique I have today, I could have been John Isner. The fact is there is no such thing as equality and that's how it should be. In any case, I agree with the ideal, but reality doesn't care about ideals. It simply is.

You muddle the idea when you jump the gun with "achieving success". Yes, achieving success is an effect but it's not necessary. Eg. one can achieve success by cheating, by simply being born with privileges, which the American Dream is not speaking of. It is speaking of equal opportunity (to pursuit success which you may or may not succeed) but the equal opportunity is the essence, the thesis.


The American Dream ain't talking about inherent advantages such as being born 6'10 high either. Again, pointed out above. If it has to be dumbed down for you to understand, it's about two guys born around 6'10, achieved similar point stats but one guy always gets drafted and paid higher due to the color of his skin. Kinda like that.

The American Dream, like its name suggests, it's forever a dream. Not a reality. It will never be fully realized in reality. It's just too good to be true that everyone is judged equally, a tall order. That's why it's called a dream. It's more specifically an ideal that we (forever) work toward to, but never achieve. It's still worthwhile.

 

[user92626]

.You can't please everybody and that is part of this American Dream discussion. Some will never be happy no matter what progress is made. You say the problem is the next 6yrs, but I think it was the previous administration where the big move backwards took place. Minority full time employment has greatly improved in this administration.

We should work for opportunity, not for equal outcomes.....how is that cryptic? First off, equal is not even real in the marketplace. Opportunity is the right and best you can go for. MLK was for Opportunity, not outcomes....Outcomes should be decided as they fall. Propping up outcomes is a path to failure. Pushing for Equal outcomes is handing out an outcome where none was deserved....trophies for everybody....

Good post with (some) clear argument points.

I agree with you that we should work for opportunity, not equal outcomes. No argument from me here.



You wrote: Some will never be happy no matter what progress is made.

So do you suggest that people should be happy and stop fighting, wanting to change for better, since progress has been made? There's so many problems with this thinking, but the least I can say to you is...you have such a low bar! (Or you're one of the ultra comfortable class that already has everything!)


Unemployment is indeed lowered in this administration but the rate of the decrease is still slower than the previous administration. However, that's employment for the general population. This admin doesn't give a rat's behind about minorities.

Unemployment data is tricky to interpret. It usually says x number of jobs added for calculation but doesn't specify if people have to take up more than one job to make ends meet. Remember, number of jobs may go up but salaries and wages have been stagnant. Guess which party doesn't support raising minimum livable wages? Trump even canceled a scheduled raise for federal employees. These are facts. Not speculations or talking points.


Elaborate on "propping up outcomes" and "the previous administration where the big move backwards took place." so there's actual specifics for me to respond. Otherwise, everything is just too vague to debate.

 

[5263]

Good post with (some) clear argument points.

I agree with you that we should work for opportunity, not equal outcomes. No argument from me here.

You wrote: Some will never be happy no matter what progress is made.

So do you suggest that people should be happy and stop fighting, wanting to change for better, since progress has been made? There's so many problems with this thinking, but the least I can say to you is...you have such a low bar! (Or you're one of the ultra comfortable class that already has everything!)

Unemployment data is tricky to interpret. It usually says x number of jobs added for calculation but doesn't specify if people have to take up more than one job to make ends meet. Remember, number of jobs may go up but salaries and wages have been stagnant. Guess which party doesn't support raising minimum livable wages? Trump even canceled a scheduled raise for federal employees. These are facts. Not speculations or talking points.


Elaborate on "propping up outcomes" and "the previous administration where the big move backwards took place." so there's actual specifics for me to respond. Otherwise, everything is just too vague to debate.

Thank you for appreciating most of the gist of my comments and I'll reply to the questions...

You can be happy with progress without being satisfied....If you improve from losing 0, 0 to a 3, 3 result against another player in a tournament 6mos later, you should be happy about the progress and but not satisfied yet...Even when you beat them 7-6, 7-6, should you be satisfied? Not Imo, but good to be happy about progress. So No, its not about setting the bar low or being in some upper class, but yes, stop fighting dirty. Realize the problem is likely less about what you have, than how so many covet what others have. Just because you don't have it doesn't mean you didn't have the opportunity.

Raising min wage is pushing for outcomes and hurts opportunity. Listen to Thomas Sowell if you really are interested, but it is common sense really.
So NOW Unemployment data is tricky? but during that last 8 yrs where many important stat reporting was being altered that isn't what we heard...

I gave the example of min wage propping up outcomes and saw it in Naval Aviation where standards were lowered to accommodate weaker pilot candidates....but can you give examples of how you can claim this admin doesn't support minority opportunity? We can see examples of where it does...with many hired in at top positions.

 

[user92626]

@5263

Feeling happy or not from improvement is personal to the individuals. It's NOT your place to tell others that they should be happy (or not), for example, from losing 0, 0 to losing 3, 3. You simply don't know the situation, aspiration, standards, etc of other people.

However, what people can definitely say, and should be acknowledged, that they are not happy with having not achieved the same progress as others have given similar backgrounds, effort. There's real measurable to go from.

Re min wage, the Republicans and minds like yours miss the point of it. Raising min wage is not designed to enhance anyone's luxury life. It is meant to establish a standard, meaning it shouldn't be "bottomless" or left to the "natural force" of the market. Look, everything we have in life has a standard. Your wi-fi, food safety, driving behaviors, all have to conform to standards.

 

[5263]

@5263

Feeling happy or not from improvement is personal to the individuals. It's NOT your place to tell others that they should be happy (or not),.

which proves the original point....that some won't be happy no matter how much progress is made....

 

[5263]

@5263

having not achieved the same progress as others have given similar backgrounds, effort. There's real measurable to go from.

Look, everything we have in life has a standard. .

No, you don't know backgrounds and efforts....way too many variables involved and gets back to the very assumptions made about people that need to be avoided..
and No, everything doesn't have a standard and we have waaaay too many standards as it is...

 

[Kevo]

You muddle the idea when you jump the gun with "achieving success". Yes, achieving success is an effect but it's not necessary.

I think that it's not the American Dream if there isn't the possibility of success. When people say they've achieved the dream, that doesn't mean they had opportunities and nothing came of it. You don't dream about the possibility of winning the lottery, you dream of winning the lottery. Nobody is happy just being able to buy a ticket. Maybe it's just semantics we're going on about here, and I get what you're saying about opportunity. As I stated in my earlier post that's certainly a big part of it.

In any case, I'm not going to agree with the argument that some measure of success is not implied in the dream, but if you want to think about that way I don't have a problem with it and I see the merits of your point.

 

[user92626]

I think that it's not the American Dream if there isn't the possibility of success. When people say they've achieved the dream, that doesn't mean they had opportunities and nothing came of it. You don't dream about the possibility of winning the lottery, you dream of winning the lottery. Nobody is happy just being able to buy a ticket. Maybe it's just semantics we're going on about here, and I get what you're saying about opportunity. As I stated in my earlier post that's certainly a big part of it.

In any case, I'm not going to agree with the argument that some measure of success is not implied in the dream, but if you want to think about that way I don't have a problem with it and I see the merits of your point.

Let's go to third party's definition of the American Dream and be done with this. Not yours, not mine:

https://www.thebalance.com/what-is-the-american-dream-quotes-and-history-3306009

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/american-dream.asp

https://bigthink.com/scotty-hendric...m-means-today-versus-what-it-originally-meant


It's all about opportunity, availability of upward mobility, "the right to".

Nothing on possibility of success or implied success. Rightly so. Let's say even with all the opportunities available, an idiot still may not create a possibility for his success (for not seizing the opportunities, etc.). No one is responsible for this lack of possibility.

It's not semantics. It's logics. An environment full of opportunities (with many or few people succeed) is NOT the same as an environment lacking opportunities but still has a bunch of people succeed. For you, the latter environment is what you use to define the American Dream. That's not how many others understand.

 

[Kevo]

Let's go to third party's definition of the American Dream and be done with this. Not yours, not mine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Dream

It's all about opportunity, availability of upward mobility, "the right to".

Nothing on possibility of success or implied success. Rightly so. Let's say even with all the opportunities available, an idiot still may not create a possibility for his success (for not seizing the opportunities, etc.). No one is responsible for this lack of possibility.

It's not semantics. It's logics. An environment full of opportunities (with many or few people succeed) is NOT the same as an environment lacking opportunities but still has a bunch of people succeed. For you, the latter environment is what you use to define the American Dream. That's not how many others understand.

Ok, look, firstly I already explained why I think of it the way I do. I think my explanation was logical. If you don't like it that's fine. Give me the same courtesy I gave to you. Second don't put words in my mouth. If you read what I have written several times now you would know that your characterization of my definition is false and misleading.

Third, I left one of your links for you. Read it carefully and let me know if there is nothing stated about possibility of success in the original source quoted on that page. Although, given your mischaracterization of my previous statements I am not sure your reading of it will help us make any progress.

 

[Hmgraphite1]

The new laws tend to hold responsible the exploiters and greedy sobs of the past that sold lies and poison. They would always keep as much as they could for themselves and give the minimum to those that worked and generated the great money machines. Who dumped all the crap into the rivers and streams and who paid to clean it up. Who authorized the dumping of all the crap, who had the knowledge of the crap dumping. This who, is the crap. Rats crap where they eat and sleep. Some people look like their pets. These are the human rats. They can't be trusted in small matters and shouldn't have any power for grand matters. No God given gifts were bestowed on them. Yet they appear to have gotten control somehow, and they crap all over all of us. Some want us to just see the frosting but its covering a crap cake. Baking a good cake. Maybe eventually it will have frosting but no covering required.