Is the ATP Cup another de facto exhibition à la the Laver Cup?

[NonP]

OK you mugs, here's a chance to start paying your unpayable debt to moi for all the education I provide free of charge.

Some of you might recall this observation of mine from last week but to wit, apart from the DC (at least until recently) the ATP tend to treat team events as secondary to the tour. Early in its inception the World Team Cup used to be ignored altogether till '94 when its match stats began to be incorporated into the ATP Player Stats... but NOT the Leaderboards. Ditto the Laver Cup whose individual match stats were missing from the ATP database until this year, though they had yet to show up on either side of the ledger while I was revising Opelka's and Kyrgios' service stats this past weekend.

But the ATP Cup is different. You still can't pull its match stats on the ATP site (though this might change starting next year), but they're included in both the Leaderboard and Player Stats so this presumably more serious event is spared the dual treatment of its predecessors. And on paper this does make a certain amount of sense because actual nations compete against one another at the ATP which presumably makes it less gimmicky than the Europe-versus-World setup... or does it really? After all participation is by invitation only (as a certain VB member pointed out in an uncharacteristically cogent post), and with the only exception of Xmas I can't think of a less opportune time to motivate yourself than around New Year's.

Oh yeah and it's a literal joke that quasi-exos like the ATP and Laver Cups are being promoted at the expense of a historic institution like the Davis Cup where all this "team" energy should be focused instead (just imagine the DC doing the ATP one better and gathering the world's best and brightest for a World Cup-style KO tournament to cap off every year or two). But then I haven't followed the ATP Cup so I leave the Q to those of you jokers who have. Do ya think it's better than an exo, or do you now see it for what it is after having absorbed my words of wisdom?

P.S. Compare these two greatest heroics in DC history by the indoor BOATs...

With this "best"-of compilation from last year's ATP Cup:

On the 2nd point I see Thiem getting passed following an almost comically poor volley and Roddickian positioning at the net... and there are mugs who actually pay to watch this kid's play over free replays of the Big Game! SMH

 

[NatF]

PETE.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

TL;DR something something he smokes the competition.

 

[BeatlesFan]

P.S. Compare these two greatest heroics in DC history...

You might want to dial back on calling others "mugs" when this 6 hour and 32 minute match isn't referenced, Mac over Mats 9-7, 6-2, 15-17, 3-6, 8-6.

And the 1989 DC match in Munich where Boris beat Agassi 6-7, 6-7, 7-6, 6-3, 6-4. Both way greater matches than the two mentioned, but don't let facts get in the way.

 

[NonP]

TL;DR something something he smokes the competition.

It's a (semi-)serious Q, actually. Would like to hear from those who have actually seen some of the Cup matches.

You might want to dial back on calling others "mugs" when this 6 hour and 32 minute match isn't referenced, Mac over Mats 9-7, 6-2, 15-17, 3-6, 8-6.

And the 1989 DC match in Munich where Boris beat Agassi 6-7, 6-7, 7-6, 6-3, 6-4. Both way greater matches than the two mentioned, but don't let facts get in the way.

I just wanted to highlight two of my faves' ATG performances and I should add that Boris switched into a higher gear in the '89 DC finals, but....

 

[Deleted member 771911]

Tl;dr but no. It’s a legit team comp testing the waters for the format, winners are unpredictable. The 2020 edition was great.

 

[Fiero425]

Tl;dr but no. It’s a legit team comp testing the waters for the format, winners are unpredictable. The 2020 edition was great.

The Inaugural couldn't have been any better with top 3 teams making it to the finals with their top 3 players; Djokovic over Medeved and Rafa respectively!

 

[Fedeonic]

With the s-hole that is the "Davis Cup" right now, makes more relevant the ATP Cup as the new World Cup of tennis nations.
Unless the Davis Cup gets its s. together, the ATP Cup may have left it behind.

 

[Standaa]

all the education I provide free of charge.

I got my doctoral degree thanks to you, NonP, so thank you

sincerely,

a mug

 

[ForehandCross]

Players especially Djokodal care a lot about ATP and Davis cup. It was visible in the last editions of those tournaments. Playing for your country is a big deal to 75% of present crop of players so any nation vs nation event by default has significance attached to it.

BUT , ATP and ITF are absolutely stupid. They should combine both tourneys and hold them once in a two year window.

 

[Fiero425]

Players especially Djokodal care a lot about ATP and Davis cup. It was visible in the last editions of those tournaments. Playing for your country is a big deal to 75% of present crop of players so any nation vs nation event by default has significance attached to it.

BUT , ATP and ITF are absolutely stupid. They should combine both tourneys and hold them once in a two year window.

Like Ryder or President's CUPS!

 

[Deleted member 771911]

The Inaugural couldn't have been any better with top 3 teams making it to the finals with their top 3 players; Djokovic over Medeved and Rafa respectively!

I loved the inaugural. I was dead set against it, too. But once I started watching, I was hooked. I would be up for a tour which had more of these events.

 

[NonP]

Tl;dr but no. It’s a legit team comp testing the waters for the format, winners are unpredictable. The 2020 edition was great.

Hard to say it's "testing the waters for the format" when the DC introduced pretty much the same thing with its '19 edition, a year before the inaugural ATP Cup.

Which brings me to:

With the s-hole that is the "Davis Cup" right now, makes more relevant the ATP Cup as the new World Cup of tennis nations.
Unless the Davis Cup gets its s. together, the ATP Cup may have left it behind.

Players especially Djokodal care a lot about ATP and Davis cup. It was visible in the last editions of those tournaments. Playing for your country is a big deal to 75% of present crop of players so any nation vs nation event by default has significance attached to it.

BUT , ATP and ITF are absolutely stupid. They should combine both tourneys and hold them once in a two year window.

I do think the bigwigs were on the right track for once with the World Cup-style format. I was in fact among those advocating for the change, and if correctly implemented it could indeed lead to the revitalization of the Davis Cup as the premiere team event in (men's) tennis.

Of course being the corporate whores they are the ITF/ATP still managed to f*ck it up. Here's what I'd like to see:

• Total refocus of energy and attention onto the DC as THE conclusion to the season. I don't mean just merging the Davis and ATP Cups, though that's an absolute must, but also clearing out the post-YEC calendar so players can worry about nothing else leading up to the grand finale. No more BSing with this ringing-in-the-new-year nonsense.
• Ranking points awarded for participation (the same logic I put forth for the Olympics applies here). Say 250 for each match/rubber and another 250 for each W. To incentivize tour-wide participation over individual excellence we could include the zone group rounds and exclude the KO playoffs from the point distribution - most playoff teams would be motivated to win no matter what - though I'm OK with extending extra points to the KO stage which might make the event more "elitist" but no more so than the YEC (or the majors for that matter).
• Expand the World Group to 32 teams and open up the DC finals to at least that many or, even better, 36 (double the current total). Doesn't make sense to be holding a WC-style tournament but limiting the worldwide pool by half. If that's too much logistics to deal with every year then do it every 2 years.
• At least make the final best-of-5! The whole KO stage would be even better.

Barring these changes I don't see DC having a 2nd life in the 21st century. Best to go all in, now that we've taken the 1st step.

 

[Deleted member 771911]

Hard to say it's "testing the waters for the format" when the DC introduced pretty much the same thing with its '19 edition, a year before the inaugural ATP Cup.

Which brings me to:




I do think the bigwigs were on the right track for once with the World Cup-style format. I was in fact among those advocating for the change, and if correctly implemented it could indeed lead to the revitalization of the Davis Cup as the premiere team event in (men's) tennis.

Of course being the corporate whores they are the ITF/ATP still managed to f*ck it up. Here's what I'd like to see:

• Total refocus of energy and attention onto the DC as THE conclusion to the season. I don't mean just merging the Davis and ATP Cups, though that's an absolute must, but also clearing out the post-YEC calendar so players can worry about nothing else leading up to the grand finale. No more BSing with this ringing-in-the-new-year nonsense.
• Ranking points awarded for participation (the same logic I put forth for the Olympics applies here). Say 250 for each match/rubber and another 250 for each W. To incentivize tour-wide participation over individual excellence we could include the zone group rounds and exclude the KO playoffs from the point distribution - most playoff teams would be motivated to win no matter what - though I'm OK with extending extra points to the KO stage which might make the event more "elitist" but no more so than the YEC (or the majors for that matter).
• Expand the World Group to 32 teams and open up the DC finals to at least that many or, even better, 36 (double the current total). Doesn't make sense to be holding a WC-style tournament but limiting the worldwide pool by half. If that's too much logistics to deal with every year then do it every 2 years.
• At least make the final best-of-5! The whole KO stage would be even better.

Barring these changes I don't see DC having a 2nd life in the 21st century. Best to go all in, now that we've taken the 1st step.

Oh Davis cup is regular ATP tour event? I didn’t know that.

 

[James P]

I like the ATP Cup a lot, especially the expanded version we got in 2020. I don't think it's an exhibition, at all.

 

[Fiero425]

I like the ATP Cup a lot, especially the expanded version we got in 2020. I don't think it's an exhibition, at all.

Maybe not as much an exhibition, but I still get PO'd rememebering and hearing in my sleep how players have kvetched about how long the season is! They've been expanding the tour every year of its existence because of their own fk'n greed so it's hard to cry crocodile tears when they run themselves into the ground chasing money and points! The women are no better!

 

[James P]

Maybe not as much an exhibition, but I still get PO'd rememebering and hearing in my sleep how players have kvetched about how long the season is! They've been expanding the tour every year of its existence because of their own fk'n greed so it's hard to cry crocodile tears when they run themselves into the ground chasing money and points! The women are no better!

It's not expanding the season. It's taking the place of other tournaments in the season. Maybe it is slightly more mandatory in a self-imposed sort of way (ie you look bad if you don't rep your country), but most players played Hopman, Doha, Brisbane, Sydney, etc prior to the ATP Cup coming into existence.

 

[Third Serve]

Laver Cup is 100% an exhibition but the ATP Cup is certainly a competitive event that should be treated a bit like a regular tournament (though its placement in the ranking lists is a bit foggy due to being a team event). The old Davis Cup was certainly a lot better, I think most of us could agree on that, but I don't think we should devalue the ATP Cup strictly for that reason.

P.S. Compare these two greatest heroics in DC history by the indoor BOATs...

With this "best"-of compilation from last year's ATP Cup:

On the 2nd point I see Thiem getting passed following an almost comically poor volley and Roddickian positioning at the net... and there are mugs who actually pay to watch this kid's play over free replays of the Big Game! SMH

That's really just an indictment of the era we're in and not necessarily about the natures of the tournaments themselves. I could throw in some good ol' Berrettini disasterclasses from the 2021 Wimbledon final... but it's still a Slam.

 

[Bubcay]

As others have stated, ATP Cup is far from being an exhibition, and the players are very motivated as they are representing their own countries.

 

[NonP]

Looks like the majority of you jokers think the ATP is a cut above the Laver. And since I'm never less than fair I'll also add the important point that the former does offer ranking points unlike the latter (though that enticement was carried over from a proposed revival of the WTC, the Laver's real precursor in their de facto exo status).

But that's even more reason to combine the Davis and ATP Cups. I stand by my unassailable proposal to award participation points for DC, but maybe the number should be scaled down to 125 or 100, not 250. And f*ck the ATP (Cup)'s gradation scheme based on rankings. Upping the #s for higher stages is fair enough, but WTF does it matter whether or not you beat a top guy in DC when the ultimate reward is (or at least should be) representing your team/country? Besides didn't the 90th-ranked Chesnokov turn back the clock and play like a genuine top 10 player (dem Russians are a patriotic bunch) in the '95 DC finals vs. Sampras? Or are we to depreciate Muzz's '15 run cuz he faced Goffin and Bemelmans in his own finals, even though he led a team of scrubs to championship and, like Pistol, almost single-handledly won the final tie on his worst surface in front of a hostile crowd?

Like the Olympics DC requires a rather different kind of mental focus. Couple that with the participation incentive and it becomes a no-brainer to do away with the ATP's individualized ranking-point distribution.

A couple more things:

Oh Davis cup is regular ATP tour event? I didn’t know that.

No, DC has always been run by the ITF (since '79, replacing the Committee of Davis Cup Nations). I'm saying the Davis and ATP Cups should be merged cuz, among other reasons, they use virtually the same tournament format and the latter is a distraction from the venerable DC tradition.

That's really just an indictment of the era we're in and not necessarily about the natures of the tournaments themselves. I could throw in some good ol' Berrettini disasterclasses from the 2021 Wimbledon final... but it's still a Slam.

Then compare the decibel levels at the end of Boris' emphatic W over Mats and of Nole's latest HC spanking of Rafa. Even this exo-ish match between 2 of the Big 3 can't measure up, cuz of the home crowd factor. That's another reason why DC >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ATP Cup (well that and Becker the indoor BOAT's charisma).

 

[Sudacafan]

I felt so cheated when they took away DC old format and replaced it by the three pack stupidity of New DC + Laver Cup + ATP Cup.
I will sue the people responsible. My country and me waited all their tennis lives to finally win the real Davis Cup in 2016 after four failed finals attempts to watch these parodies now? Totally unfair and disgusting.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Yes?

 

[Sudacafan]

Yes?

Of course. Any tournament that is even slightly related with the demise of the DCAWKI (Davis Cup As We Knew It) is.

 

[Slicehand]

Yeah but less funny