Is the USTA useless for college tennis?

T

Tennis2349

Professional
A few questions:

Many of us just watched college football. Miami vs Indiana. Indiana has the oldest team in history. Average age 24. And Miami has a quarterback stating he graduated two years ago when asked about his classes.

It seems college tennis is similar. I randomly looked at Ohio state and the 6th singles is 24. Over a 13 UTR, but at 16 he was a 9. Which isn’t that great.

Are we entering a new era in which traditional 17-18 year old dont have a chance at making D1 teams unless they are basically top ten to 25 in the country ? I don’t understand these age rules.

Secondly , I have noticed the American juniors with the highest utr’s often times have extremely low USTA rankings. 1200, 500, 600, 433. Etc. their results in USTA level 1’s are not great either. Round of 64, maybe round of 32 etc. and obviously foreign kids aren’t playing USTA. Should Americans just opt out?

Which tells me they are playing itf’s, prize money events, men’s events etc. not sure if they are truly “better” or just the utr is higher.

And I have never heard of any coach saying “we are looking for a 5 star”. Or “we are seeking a top 100 national player”. It strictly comes down to a utr number.

Having said that, is the whole chasing points and USTA events a waste of time and money? You might make it into level 1’s , play 3-4 a year and just have bad draws. That won’t help your utr at all. Might be better to play events like battle of Boca on weekends where you consistently play 11’s and 12’s.

In closing a local player I know (17) has been solely playing USTA events. Stuck at an 11 utr and zero d1 interest. Plays a battle of Boca and destroys and 11.5 and beats a 12.6. Seems if he did this a lot sooner he would have a higher utr. Also, these kids in USTA tournaments with the same utr seem to be much tougher.

Am I right in assuming utr (no matter how you get there) is the main factor? The USTA just seems to be a much tougher route for Americans who don’t know any better until it’s too late. They will take the foreign 12 every day of the week over a local 11.

Also, kids are training and prepping for a level 1 for a long time. Seems to be a much tougher tournament than playing events like battle of Boca that are every weekend.

Is much of this process choosing the right path and events? It seems you can be the same player, with the same skill, but have a very different utr just based on where you play.
 
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NIL, transfer portal, unclear age limit rules, players in team sports coming back from the pros to college in the same sport have damaged all college sports. To add to your irritation, it's enticed internationals in larger numbers to sports other than primarily tennis. I can see the average age going up on most all starting rosters. We're seeing kids transfer in some instances chasing NIL dollars and starting roster spots every year.

All that said, I still don't think it's that dire. Only for those with their eye on 1 or 2 elite athletic programs with little flexibility to go elsewhere other than their dream school find college sports out of reach. An 11 that beats a 11.5 and 12.6 that has zero interest isn't trying.
 
The USTA tournaments are important because no player can start playing ITFs off the bat. They are a natural progression to higher levels which inevitably provide a direct comparison between US recruits and their international counterparts who compete for a spot (the ITFs provide that common platform for comparison).

Also Kzoo and San Diego offer USO wildcards to the winners and those players are coveted by D1 coaches.

I agree with @andfor in that there are plenty of D1 roster spots available if one isn't looking only at the top of the D1 structure.
 
andfor said:
NIL, transfer portal, unclear age limit rules, players in team sports coming back from the pros to college in the same sport have damaged all college sports. To add to your irritation, it's enticed internationals in larger numbers to sports other than primarily tennis. I can see the average age going up on most all starting rosters. We're seeing kids transfer in some instances chasing NIL dollars and starting roster spots every year.

All that said, I still don't think it's that dire. Only for those with their eye on 1 or 2 elite athletic programs with little flexibility to go elsewhere other than their dream school find college sports out of reach. An 11 that beats a 11.5 and 12.6 that has zero interest isn't trying.
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Do you want his parents number? Which d1 team is recruiting a 11 for fall?

You guys keep saying this…. “There are plenty of spots for an 11 in d1”

Complete and total BS.

I understand you can find a few d1 programs with guys on the team sub 11. We don’t know their story. Coaches have told me of two for 1 deals. You get the 13 if you take the 10.

Harvard has a 5 utr woman that plays. Her dad owns a huge software company.

Seems the question was avoided and these lies keep being furthered.
 
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Sureshot said:
The USTA tournaments are important because no player can start playing ITFs off the bat. They are a natural progression to higher levels which inevitably provide a direct comparison between US recruits and their international counterparts who compete for a spot (the ITFs provide that common platform for comparison).

Also Kzoo and San Diego offer USO wildcards to the winners and those players are coveted by D1 coaches.

I agree with @andfor in that there are plenty of D1 roster spots available if one isn't looking only at the top of the D1 structure.
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This is also BS. Americans are playingITF locally in most cases. Mexico. USA. Dominican They aren’t playing in Europe. There is no direct comparison. Not one coach anywhere is asking what an 18 and under USTA ranking is.

Why would it be relevant at 12? 14 or 16 if it isn’t relevant at 18. Chasing points doesn’t mean a player csn beat men
 
Toledo, U of Buffalo, Cleveland State to name but a few. Am sure if you looked up this category of D1 schools you could uncover many more.
 
Tennis2349 said:
This is also BS. Americans are playingITF locally in most cases. Mexico. USA. Dominican They aren’t playing in Europe. There is no direct comparison. Not one coach anywhere is asking what an 18 and under USTA ranking is.

Why would it be relevant at 12? 14 or 16 if it isn’t relevant at 18. Chasing points doesn’t mean a player csn beat men
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They don't have to play H2H to make that comparison. The general understanding is the ITFs present a greater challenge than USTA tournaments. That is the reason for the progression. If it weren't so why would the top US juniors play ITFs?
 
Sureshot said:
Toledo, U of Buffalo, Cleveland State to name but a few. Am sure if you looked up this category of D1 schools you could uncover many more.
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Andfor said all but a top couple of top teams ! So it really is none but a couple of teams.

Point is that these teams also need openings at the correct time.

If there are 100 11’s trying to get one spot, it doesn’t mean just because you are an 11 you can play d1.
 
Sureshot said:
They don't have to play H2H to make that comparison. The general understanding is the ITFs present a greater challenge than USTA tournaments. That is the reason for the progression. If it weren't so why would the top US juniors play ITFs?
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Exactly. My point is that they aren’t playing USTA. Why do they play ITF ? To raise their utr. Thats the only reason. Flying to other countries to play a tennis match doesn’t make you better.
 
There are >200 D1 programs. Yes an 11.xx UTR isn't going to land at a Wake or UVA. But that was his point. These are dream schools for any recruit. Much like a straight academic admit, one has to cast a wider net and still will get to play D1 tennis.
 
Tennis2349 said:
Exactly. My point is that they aren’t playing USTA. Why do they play ITF ? To raise their utr. Thats the only reason. Flying to other countries to play a tennis match doesn’t make you better.
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This is a circular argument. UTRs rise as a result of playing better competition (they are an outcome of playing at a higher level).
 
Sureshot said:
There are >200 D1 programs. Yes an 11.xx UTR isn't going to land at a Wake or UVA. But that was his point. These are dream schools for any recruit. Much like a straight academic admit, one has to cast a wider net and still will get to play D1 ten
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This is his direct quote

“Only for those with their eye on 1 or 2 elite athletic programs with little flexibility to go elsewhere other than their dream school find college sports out of reach. An 11 that beats a 11.5 and 12.6 that has zero interest isn't trying.”

Why are you changing what he said?

Yes. 200 tennis programs.

For this to make sense tou would have to know:

A. How many are recruiting an 11 utr.

B. How many available 11 utr.

If there are 1000 11 utr available, and 10 spots in a given year, it’s idiotic to claim “well if he jus tried harder… well he must only want to tk to Ohio state…”. That’s ridiculous.
 
Sureshot said:
This is a circular argument. UTRs rise as a result of playing better competition (they are an outcome of playing at a higher level).
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Yeah, I'm working remote today and with a quick search in this area found multiple D1 teams with multiple UTR 11's. U. So. Alabama, Troy St., Alabama St.
 
andfor said:
Yeah, I'm working remote today and with a quick search in this area found multiple D1 teams with multiple UTR 11's. U. So. Alabama, Troy St., Alabama St.
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This is where we need reading comprehension.

Yes. Those schools have 100 percent foreign players.

A. How many worldwide 11 utr would want those spots?

B. How many openings each year would these teams have that are comprised of 6/8 playwrs.

So between all 3 teams maybe 2 openings? 4? And how many available 11 utr?

So which of those teams wants tk recruit an American 11 for fall? .
 
What about Katrina Scott who has $460,000 in career earnings on WTA tour, signing with Tennessee today for this Spring. She's a 2021 graduate. How bad is that.
 
andfor said:
Yeah, I'm working remote today and with a quick search in this area found multiple D1 teams with multiple UTR 11's. U. So. Alabama, Troy St., Alabama St.
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What is your logic? “Well there are hundreds of lottery winners in every state! If you didn’t win the lottery you didn’t try hard enough”

Saying that “Americans are spoiled and only want to go to top d1 “ is a lie and a myth We have hundreds of 11 utr fighting the entire world each year for a hand full of spots.
 
Texas Tennis said:
What about Katrina Scott who has $460,000 in career earnings on WTA tour, signing with Tennessee today for this Spring. She's a 2021 graduate. How bad is that.
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Exactly. You have parents investing in their kids thinking it was like back in the old day. The rules seem to be very clear, but always seem to be blended to the max.
 
I used to try to play certain people and avoid others so my rating could go up. Then I decided to just play without worrying about who I play. I did start losing more and my rating did go down, but eventually you will be rated at the correct rating because you eventually have to face players with styles you don't like or are just better, you can't avoid them forever. If you make it on a team and the team plays each other and then plays other teams, the coach eventually figures out who is the best and who is an imposter who manipulated their rating. Just play all levels you feel comfortable playing and focus on improving. The more people you play, the more you learn, the more ideas you get on how to win and how to improve.
 
Many of you dont understand the math.

Each year , if you look at USTA rankings, there are over 250 11 utr’ and up.

A. 200 d 1 programs.

B. How many programs are recruiting an 11 utr. Let’s say 30?

C. How many open spots each year for that 11 utr. Maybe 20?

D. How many teams ONLY will pick foreign players? Take away half. So maybe 10 open spots?

Now if that number is greater than 250 then I agree. .

If that number is 10, then what I see in real life is far more accurate than people finding an 11 on a team, then saying all 11’s can get spots.
 
Troy state. 2 foreign coaches. Mexico and France. Wow. Have Mexican and French player!

Southern Alabama. French coach and two French players.

Alabama state. Foreign coach and all foreign players.
 
I just did a quick search within 200 miles from my currently remote location. Last year I did another and found a bunch of schools for you bear my home, same results, different day. The schools I found today are all state schools and most likely would love to have an opportunity to have an in-state 11. Bet if you ask them how many American UTR's reach out to them, or return their calls and emails, I'm 100% sure if it's not 0%, it's close to 1 in 100. I've talked with D1 coaches at smaller state schools, they've confirmed this.

Again, you're only looking at college tennis from negative view points. In all your posts its always about what's wrong, no solutions, nothing positive. We've tried to provide constructive ideas. You answer with more negatives.

Why are you even here if you've been defeated?
 
andfor said:
The schools I found today are all state schools and most likely would love to have an opportunity to have an in-state 11.

Why are you even here if you've been defeated?
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If they would “love an in state 11” , as a college coach they could reach out to the players. Takes all of 5 seconds to find out who they are.

But they don’t. You are saying the in state 11’s only want to play for the top 1 or 2 programs. So they quit tennis instead. That has to be the dumbest thing I have heard in my life.

Or that the player I know and his family “just haven’t tried” to play college tennis. Again. Dumb.

Now here is the part that goes over your head.

Show me 1 D1 school that NEEDS an 11 utr, and is wanting the position filed for fall of 2026. Just 1.

Just one school that is posting for this. Anywhere.

You can’t. Thats 100 times different than finding schools an 11 plays for.

Let me make spell it out this way for you…

If there are 1000 world wide 11 utr annually that want to play college tennis, and 30 spots open, do you think that means “all 11 utr can play d1”?
 
andfor said:
Bet if you ask them how many American UTR's reach out to them, or return their calls and emails, I'm 100% sure if it's not 0%, it's close to 1 in 100. I've talked with D1 coaches at smaller state schools, they've confirmed this.
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Dm 1 d1 coach you have spoken to that wants an 11 American , but only “1 out of 100 “ return their calls. I will have my friends son call
All of them today.

Why are you lying. ?

You have it backwards. The American 11 utr reaches out to 100 universities and gets 1 call back. Thats been his experience.
 
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And j guess your theory only holds up in the sport of tennis. Not football. Not basketball. Golf. Hockey or wrestling. Swimming gymnastics or diving.

Every single sport can fill teams with all divisions with Americans.

But only for tennis, all of the American players say “hmmm if I can’t play for the top 1 or 2 schools i quit”.

Which is then why we need foreigners. Hahaha. What a joke.
 
Tennis2349 said:
If there are 1000 world wide 11 utr annually that want to play college tennis, and 30 spots open, do you think that means “all 11 utr can play d1”?
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If you're so sure of this then why are you here complaining and not doing anything about it? You've been here for years and not produced 1 letter to your elected representatives, the NCAA, USTA or shown in any way shape or form you're trying to reform the system that so aggrieves you. Just a loud mouth complainer with fake stories.
 
andfor said:
If you're so sure of this then why are you here complaining and not doing anything about it? You've been here for years and not produced 1 letter to your elected representatives, the NCAA, USTA or shown in any way shape or form you're trying to reform the system that so aggrieves you. Just a loud mouth complainer with fake stories.
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The point of my thread was how to raise UTR the most efficiently , as I notice most good players aren’t even playing USTA 18’s and chasing points. You are the one who said 11 utrs not getting a d1 spot aren’t trying.(because some teams have 11 utrs)
 
Tennis2349 said:
The point of my thread was how to raise UTR the most efficiently , as I notice most good players aren’t even playing USTA 18’s and chasing points. You are the one who said 11 utrs not getting a d1 spot aren’t trying.(because some teams have 11 utrs)
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You pretty much answered all your own questions.
 
Just realized you have posted earlier voicing similar grievances. Anyways, the onus isn’t on the coach to reach out to potential recruits unless they are special. Oftentimes it’s the other way around. And your friend’s son can easily do some legwork to figure out which teams have graduating seniors and target those schools.

Also you throw up some hypothetical math to suit your argument which can be spun around to support the counter argument.

There’s no benefit to you or your friend’s son from coming in so high and heavy. As @andfor rightly points out nobody on this forum is in a position to solve issues you have with college tennis. My humble request is you calm down and make your case to the right authorities.
 
These kids who can't get on a D1 team aren't going to be pros. How about going to a smaller school and get an education. OP sounds like a stage mother.
 
Sureshot said:
Just realized you have posted earlier voicing similar grievances. Anyways, the onus isn’t on the coach to reach out to potential recruits unless they are special. Oftentimes it’s the other way around. And your friend’s son can easily do some legwork to figure out which teams have graduating seniors and target those schools.

Also you throw up some hypothetical math to suit your argument which can be spun around to support the counter argument.

There’s no benefit to you or your friend’s son from coming in so high and heavy. As @andfor rightly points out nobody on this forum is in a position to solve issues you have with college tennis. My humble request is you calm down and make your case to the right authorities.
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you and Andfor made some rather hasty generalizations.

Along the lines of “since I see an 11 utr playing d1 that mean all 11’s can play d1”

But you fail to realize for every available spot at that level, there maybe be 20-50 qualified applicants.

This was after baseless ad hominem attacks on American individual players as is so common on this board. “They must be stuck up and only want to play for wake forest. “. “They must not be trying”.

The ignorance is annoying, although I assume it is partially to push a certain narrative.
 
Tennis2349 said:
you and Andfor made some rather hasty generalizations.

Along the lines of “since I see an 11 utr playing d1 that mean all 11’s can play d1”

But you fail to realize for every available spot at that level, there maybe be 20-50 qualified applicants.

This was after baseless ad hominem attacks on American individual players as is so common on this board. “They must be stuck up and only want to play for wake forest. “. “They must not be trying”.

The ignorance is annoying, although I assume it is partially to push a certain narrative.
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How do you come up with 20-50 players per D1 spot? Please walk us through factual math and not hypotheticals. There are many 11s who choose to play D3 based on academic considerations. And no, I didn’t say 11s only want to play for Wake. Was simply pointing out there are several programs where they could find a home if they choose to broaden their search. You highlight isolated instances of favoritism but for the most part college tennis is a meritocracy. Coaches wanna win and they pick the players that can make it happen. Since you are so committed to the cause of American 11 UTRs you should persuade the coaches to go homegrown.
 
Sureshot said:
How do you come up with 20-50 players per D1 spot? Please walk us through factual math and not hypotheticals. There are many 11s who choose to play D3 based on academic considerations. And no, I didn’t say 11s only want to play for Wake. Was simply pointing out there are several programs where they could find a home if they choose to broaden their search. You highlight isolated instances of favoritism but for the most part college tennis is a meritocracy. Coaches wanna win and they pick the players that can make it happen. Since you are so committed to the cause of American 11 UTRs you should persuade the coaches to go
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I meant 20-50 (in the 11 utr range) per open spot annually for colleges that will take a player in that range. You really want to be a 12 and up to be assured a spot in d1.

Once you are in the 11 range. It’s possible, but definitely not a given considering dozens of factors. The 11

Is it really a meritocracy? Does a coach really know which 11 is better than another 11 across the world? Are they playing one another for the spot? No.

At a certain level sure. Goldman Sachs wants to hire people that can do the job also. There csn be thousands of qualified applicants and at that point you would be far ahead if your dad worked for them.

Your logic would be “well we see Joe smith had a 3.9 from UGA in finance and got a job at Goldman Sachs. You have a 3.9 from UGA in finance also, thus you will get a job at Goldman Sachs”
 
Maybe I am dumb but I don’t get your pretzel logic. Anyways, wish you all the best as you champion the cause of the American junior. It’s commendable and any positive change you accomplish would be welcome.
 
Sureshot said:
Maybe I am dumb but I don’t get your pretzel logic. Anyways, wish you all the best as you champion the cause of the American junior. It’s commendable and any positive change you accomplish would be welcome.
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It’s definitely possible. If you can’t comprehend there are more available/ qualified players world wide than annual open ncaa d1 spots it’s difficult to have a discussion.

Your brain still seems to be stuck on “I see an 11 plays for southern Alabama, thus all 11’a can play d1”. Then you blame the kid. “He isn’t trying. He is stuck up. He doesn’t want to play d1”. It’s quite strange.

How do you make it through life thinking like that? You can get a degree in electrical engineering and not get a job after graduation. You can be an 11 utr and not get a d1 spot. If the supply is higher than the amount of openings it’s impossible for everyone to have a spot.
 
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You like to take out of context what others say, read into them for your own purposes then develop wacky logic. Your favorite trait is to just ignore valid points and those who offer helpful ideas. You're just here to pick fights, not even trying to help your cause. Pretty much troll.
 
andfor said:
You like to take out of context what others say, read into them for your own purposes then develop wacky logic. Your favorite trait is to just ignore valid points and those who offer helpful ideas. You're just here to pick fights, not even trying to help your cause. Pretty much troll.
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This was your statement. Its Not trolling to correct ignorance. Just simply not true.

. Only for those with their eye on 1 or 2 elite athletic programs with little flexibility to go elsewhere other than their dream school find college sports out of reach. An 11 that beats a 11.5 and 12.6 that has zero interest isn't trying.
 
Tennis2349 said:
Yes. This is true. He did get an offer from them. Free education but 5 years of a service after if it is air force. 4 for the others.
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Wow that's impressive ! There's a kid from Austin on the team currently and from what I've seen on social media he's doing well.
 
The thread, before it was hijacked , wasn’t meant to be about foreign players.

As times have changed, it seems the USTA has stayed the same. Growing up and playing, USTA rankings were important. As was state high school tennis tournaments.

Today, rankings don’t mean much at all. At younger ages the better players play up an age, and older juniors plays ITF. You will never hear a college coach say “seeking a top 150 nationally ranked player”. It all comes down to UTR.

Having said that, many families don't know this. And it will be to the detriment of their kids.

They keep grinding through 12’s. 14’s. 16’s. Travel. Points. Playing 25 events a year. Tons of money. Tons of time. Hard to make actual improvements if playing so much as changes take time.

There are no rewards. Special training. Monetary benefits for a top ranking. I guess its just for bragging rights.

The main problem is this. If playing college comes down to UTR, this will be ten times harder for American kids to raise in the USTA than going different routes.

Older top juniors might play 4 level 1’s a year. This is where you get a chance to beat other kids with the same or higher utr. These are insanely tough. In contrast there is a battle of Boca every single weekend.

So what I see today instead is that kids play men’s tournaments. Prize money tournaments. A 16 yr old playing a high utr 22 year old that May not be that into it as a top 17 year old.

This seem to be the better way to increase utr and get colleges to notice you.

While it will always come down to talent, discipline, and a ton of hard work, event selection and scheduling also plays a bigger role today than perhaps before. If you aren’t playing the right events your utr will not be at where it could or should be.

And it’s changing rapidly. A few years ago being a 10 seemed to be a huge milestone. Now that seems to be average for a 16 yo.
 
andfor said:
Sounds like you have a formula. How did all these UTR 11's all get to the D1 schools in this list? Most on the second half of this list are UTR 11's including a few 5 stars. My old account is no longer valid, so I can't see past pg. 2. https://tennisrecruiting.net/list.asp?id=1259&order=rank&page=1
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Now count how many are 11 utr lol.

Not 11.8. Or 11.7. Etc. huge difference.

Secondly none of those guys are the foreign recruits.

What is your point?

So maybe 2-3 11 utr in the entire class of Americans play d1? As in 11.15 and below. You need to be higher.
 
Tennis2349 said:
Now count how many are 11 utr lol.

Not 11.8. Or 11.7. Etc. huge difference.

Secondly none of those guys are the foreign recruits.

What is your point?

So maybe 2-3 11 utr in the entire class of Americans play d1? As in 11.15 and below. You need to be higher.
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According to utr, if you are a 11.09 junior player

A. There are 325 American juniors ahead of you.

B. There are 1400 world juniors ahead of you.

You prove my point. Around 11 utr is a dime a dozen for a few d1 spots.

If you go down to 10.8 there are 450 American juniors ahead of you.

So the fact that the list you showed has 2-3 guys leaves out the other few hundred.
 
Looks like all the 11's on that page which is about half of them got D1 scholarships. Bet page 2 is full of more of the same.

My question that you did not answer is, "how did all these UTR 11's all get to the D1 schools in this list"?
 
Hahahaha. Man stop trolling. And lying. You know the second page is almost all d2 and d3. You can log in for free and see it.

You must not understand utr. Huge difference between 11 and 11.8.

There are very few utr around 11 recruited at all. And definitely aren’t getting a scholarship. Why are you lying again?
 
andfor said:
Got my log in back, 10's and 11's all over page 2 getting D1 scholarships.

Boys' College Commitment Lists

tennisrecruiting.net tennisrecruiting.net
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Wrong lol. There is zero scholarship info there at all. So you are making that up. More lies

Again, maybe 5 American kids in the entire class of 2026 playing d1 around 11 utr. (That doesn’t mean 11.9, that means around 11)

Again, if you are 11.1 there are 350 American juniors ahead of you.
 
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