Is there a dtl low short backhand slice?

[toth]

Is there a dtl low short backhand slice to the righty opponent forehand wing?
I did not see this shot neither from Federer and as i see nor from other top player.
But Gilbert writes in his famous book ,,Winning ugly", he hitted very effectiv low short balls to Krickstein fh, and this tactic turned the match to his favour.

Thank you for your answer
Toth

 

[PRS]

Of course there is the shot, it just isn't the most effective anymore. With today's strings and racquets, plus how fast players can swing their racquets, it's a lot easier for your opponent to still hit a fairly aggressive shot back to you with a little flick of the wrist to pull the ball up over the net and with enough topspin to bring it back into the court.

It can still be effective, especially at lower levels, against those with western grips, or those that don't like to approach the net, but it's more risky than it used to be when racquets, strings, and technique made it harder to return that shot aggressively.

 

[nyta2]

my buddy uses it against me regularly (and i don't even have an extreme grip (sw/e)). he's got a really consistent deep cc slice bh, that forces me to play further back behind the baseline, and try to loop high or drive - deep back to his bh... then he has alot of options if i hit my shot short...
1. slice back deep cc
2. short slice dtl (if i'm deep behind the baseline), or slice deep (if i creep inside baseline)
3. dropper to ad/deuce
4. if my loop is short/sits up - he can switch to 2hbh or runaround fh, and drive it hard to either corner (especially if i creep inside the baseline, anticipating a short slice/dropper)
only way i found to neutralize consistently (which i'm not) is to get it deep (either drive or high&heavy)

 

[badmice2]

For f*** sakes you people make it sound like you only play against pro players and nothing works. You might as well assume chip and charge is dead.

 

[PRS]

For f*** sakes you people make it sound like you only play against pro players and nothing works. You might as well assume chip and charge is dead.

What's wrong with acknowledging that certain strategies are more difficult to do than they used to be? The equipment, and even the courts themselves, have changed, making certain strategies harder, especially against 4.5+ (give or take, depending on area/individual). Nobody is saying the shot/strategy doesn't work, but it's foolish to think that the game hasn't changed. Why do you think serve and volley isn't nearly as common anymore? Is it viable? Yes, of course. But is it more difficult as a result of the equipment and court changes? Absolutely, especially at higher (4.5+-ish) levels.

 

[badmice2]

Oh no, I’m totally agreeing with you. My post points to the problem is people on these board ignores that 99% of the time slices works in 99% of recreation players. To think that “today’s game anyone can chase down a slice hence it’s ineffective” is ignorant. To question whether a slice should still be use is an absolute head scratcher…

 

[toth]

And is techniqually not to difficoult this shot ?
I mean, in case of dtl short slice the net is higher, the court to hit is smaller.
Maybe are higher incoming ball possible to answer this way or ?

 

[toth]

(And dtl is usually changing direction)

 

[WYK]

It happens. But it is also a good way to put the ball into the net or float it trying to clear the net.
Now if you take the ball from a higher position, and instead of top spin or hitting flat, slice it DTL, that's something we see often.

 

[Dragy]

Such shot is supposed to exploit a hole in his game. You can for sure try it, but more likely than not FH side is more capable lifting, shaping and creating angles, which makes it dangerous.

But if your opponent is poor mover - for sure.

It can absolutely work if you take the ball above the net stepping in, and sending it almost down into the court, with backspin and no arc.

But keep in mind, if your opponent gets there in time, if your slice sits up a bit - he will have a great range of options to put you in the ropes.

 

[TennisCJC]

Is there a dtl low short backhand slice to the righty opponent forehand wing?
I did not see this shot neither from Federer and as i see nor from other top player.
But Gilbert writes in his famous book ,,Winning ugly", he hitted very effectiv low short balls to Krickstein fh, and this tactic turned the match to his favour.

Thank you for your answer
Toth

Federer hit a lot of slices DTL in the Wimbledon final against Murray. Federer would first move Murray wide to the backhand and Murray would reply CC to Federer's BH. Federer than hit a slice DTL to Murray's FH. Some were drop shots, some where mid-court low slices and some were deep slices. Many of the mid-court low slices were very effective as the ball stayed low and slid to Federer's left. I use this shot a lot but you have to have a ball you can work with. You don't want to try it if the incoming ball has you under pressure. If you have time to step and set up, than go for it.

 

[LuckyR]

It's a very reasonable shot for (usually older folks) those with Classic strokes to use against (usually younger) Rec and Club players with Modern strokes.

 

[nyta2]

And is techniqually not to difficoult this shot ?
I mean, in case of dtl short slice the net is higher, the court to hit is smaller.
Maybe are higher incoming ball possible to answer this way or ?

personally, i would not change direction on a high ball, as it's usually out of my strikezone, therefore a smaller margin for error, etc..
not saying never, just saying i tend not to..

(And dtl is usually changing direction)

just like any change of direction shot... you need to do it on the "right ball".. eg. one where you're in balance, it's incoming at a pace/spin/height you're comfortable with, ideally when your opponent is kinda camping/overplaying/expecting the cc corner
and.... it needs to be practiced!

 

[toth]

personally, i would not change direction on a high ball, as it's usually out of my strikezone, therefore a smaller margin for error, etc..
not saying never, just saying i tend not to..

just like any change of direction shot... you need to do it on the "right ball".. eg. one where you're in balance, it's incoming at a pace/spin/height you're comfortable with, ideally when your opponent is kinda camping/overplaying/expecting the cc corner
and.... it needs to be practiced!

I thought of incoming higher balls becouse in these cases is easier to cross the bit higher net with my dtl low short sliced ball.
Just physic, no experience with it at all...

 

[nyta2]

I thought of incoming higher balls becouse in these cases is easier to cross the bit higher net with my dtl low short sliced ball.
Just physic, no experience with it at all...

i definitely would choose balls that are above the height of the net (typically i choose belly button high to shoulder high) to attack/change direction dtl... for me that tends to be around shoulder height... but i don't consider that a "high ball"
"high" to me, is at my head or higher.

 

[toth]

As i have written in the original post, Gilbert had the opinion, the dtl low short was a gamechanger against Krickstein in Brisbone.
But as i saw their h2h, before and after this match their rivalry was quite balanced too.
Does not seem that this gamechanger had influenced their later encounters or Gilbert was helplos in their earlier encounters...
Just interessant for me

 

[RyanRF]

Is there a dtl low short backhand slice to the righty opponent forehand wing?
I did not see this shot neither from Federer and as i see nor from other top player.
But Gilbert writes in his famous book ,,Winning ugly", he hitted very effectiv low short balls to Krickstein fh, and this tactic turned the match to his favour.

Thank you for your answer
Toth

I don't really have a specific video or match to point to, but I disagree that Fed never used it. Federer usually hit deep backhand slice but would also mix it up with a short one DTL that had sidespin, especially if the other guy was positioned really deep. It would bring the opponent up but on Federer's terms.

 

[RyanRF]

I don't really have a specific video or match to point to, but I disagree that Fed never used it. Federer usually hit deep backhand slicewould also mix it up with a short one DTL that had sidespin, especially if the other guy was positioned really deep. It would bring the opponent up but on Federer's terms.

Here ya go @ 57s:

 

[Roforot]

riskier to hit down the line slice compared to topspin BH; and then if you want to hit it low like a pass or intentionally short even harder. But I've seen some guys w/ exclusive slice 1h BHs who can do it reliably. I've done it on occasion but if I feel pressured it is tough. I prefer then to lob it w/ slice DTL (as a lefty my DTL slice/lobs goes to their backhand)

 

[socallefty]

Targets near where the service box line meets the sideline are some of the better targets on a tennis court second only to deep corners. It takes your opponent off the court if you hit it CC and it makes for a good approach DTL if you plan to come to net. Obviously you have to hit a quality shot to trouble the opponent, but keeping the ball low is a desired quality on DTL approaches and so, a slice shot works well.

This is all in theory, but in the real world you have to make sure your BTL DTL slice quality is enough to trouble your typical opponents - don’t use it too much if you are losing a lot of those point patterns and set a goal to improve the shot. Once you have topspin quality/versatility on both wings, it is worthwhile to develop a full repertoire of slice shots where you can hit different trajectories, depths, pace, underspin RPM etc. Guys with a good slice repertoire which includes driving slices, dropshots, defensive slices etc. are rare especially in rec singles these days after 2HBHs became predominant and so, it can be a great help to win matches. There are several players I know where I would rather hit to their FH than their BH because their BH slice variety is so devastating and more bothersome for me.

 

[ubercat]

So I m assuming incoming shot is weak short bh that is too angled to take as an I/O FH.

Deeper slice DTL is safer. Especially if you can get some side. Which he is going to have to hit Cross Court which gives you a forehand volley into the empty court.

If he's good enough to run over from his backhand side hit falling and fading ball over the high part of the net DTL for the winner try it again. Can do it all day well you're probably going to lose anyway but in that case backhand cc moon ball is probably best

 

[toth]

The main reasons i feel i need this shot are:
1.my thbh has a few limits: i change to dtl difficoulter than with slice, i find the footwork difficoulter than with slice too and at belly or schoulder

 

[toth]

schoulder hight seems the slice easier too

 

[toth]

Besides i suspect a few of my opponent will struggle with it

 

[sovertennis]

Oh no, I’m totally agreeing with you. My post points to the problem is people on these board ignores that 99% of the time slices works in 99% of recreation players. To think that “today’s game anyone can chase down a slice hence it’s ineffective” is ignorant. To question whether a slice should still be use is an absolute head scratcher…

100%. For me (4.5) hitting a few xc backhands to draw the opponent out wide, then, if the response is inside the court and to my backhand, a short slice dtl is generally effective. I try to contact the ball slightly to the inside, so my slice slides away from the opponent. For him, it's a long run to a ball that's moving away from him. No one I play is gonna hit a running, scorching, big topspin xc winner off that.

 

[toth]

Federer hit a lot of slices DTL in the Wimbledon final against Murray. Federer would first move Murray wide to the backhand and Murray would reply CC to Federer's BH. Federer than hit a slice DTL to Murray's FH. Some were drop shots, some where mid-court low slices and some were deep slices. Many of the mid-court low slices were very effective as the ball stayed low and slid to Federer's left. I use this shot a lot but you have to have a ball you can work with. You don't want to try it if the incoming ball has you under pressure. If you have time to step and set up, than go for it.

I have looked on the Federer-Murray Wimbledon final.
Federer hitted a lot of dtl slice, most of them was deep slice.
There was 4 short dtl slice, 3(!) of them was a problem to deel with for Murray - so i think for rec players could be this shot an useful tool too.
There was 4 return short dtl slices, these balls were usually easy to attak for Murray .I think at these return Federers gool could be to stay at the rally and maybe keep the ball low(?)

//Interesting for me: Federers ohbh ts seems to me he creates more topspin than Murray with his thbh. Maybe therefore as i have seen Federer could produce more angled shots with his bh than Murray.
Just as i have seen it//

 

[ubercat]

Because he s Federer. One of the advantages of the two hander is you can flick across with both arms and get sharper angles.

 

[TheBoom]

Def go for it, it’s helpful to have if you’re someone who likes to mix pace/depth. Especially below 4.5 it’ll be extremely effective at causing forced/unforced errors.

Those errors are harder to come by at the 4.5+ level. I’d hit it occasionally in college to keep an on their feet, but you have to expect them to get it back with spin/pace and have another shot ready (lob/passing).

To the poll question, idk that there’s a bad shot in tennis, but it doesn’t mean you should be hitting it frequently

 

[AleYeah]

One of my favorite approach shots is to really put a little extra mustard on a dtl slice.

 

[dannyslicer]

Next time you play, slice every single ball.
You will find your low bullet slice that is lethal against any club player

 

[toth]

I looked on the old Federer-Hewitt Us Open finale 2004.
In this match Federer used his short cross slice often and with big success.
In this match he did not use the short dtl slice.