Is there a player like Connors but righty?
- Thread starter toth
- Start date
Not that they're hugely similar, but I'd say that Kafelnikov is the Major winning player who was most similar to Connors, but a righty. Both have top 10 all-time two handed backhands. Both were really good at return of serve (Connors was obviously much better). Both had aggressive court positioning and took the ball early. Both were quite good at the net although Connors came in much more often. I think Stefanki, who coached Kafelnikov, made the comparison.
accidental
Hall of Fame
Lleyton Hewitt maybe
big ted
Legend
i think agassis game must have been developed with Connors in mind. besides the return of serve they both really took the ball early
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Sorry, but Andre routinely tanked matches, even in slams, under 1992. He had years of ridiculous tanking, quitting, and even catching with his hand his opponents serves ( to tank the point). Fighting spirit is hilariously inaccurate to associate with Andre for the first 4-5 years of his career.
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chrischris
G.O.A.T.
I dont recall him too well but didnt Miroslav Mecir hit flat backhands and almost sidespin forehands almost like Jimbo did..??
BorgTheGOAT
Legend
lol was about to comment on that. This is the guy who admitted in his book he tanked an AO semi against Chang. You will not see/hear anything like that from Connors.
TripleATeam
G.O.A.T.
Mirror the Connors footage, use that.
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
Jim Courier, even though he didn't hit flat balls. But a gutsy, aggressive player who was pretty good at the net.
I have found Roddick, he like to approach the net.
However i would be interessed in a stat, how many percentage have he won the point behind forehand and bh approach.
As i see he had a problem behind bh approach most player (included rec player included me) have: bh is his weaker wing and bh dtl approach goes to the opponent fh wing (and bh cross approach leaves az open court)
However i would be interessed in a stat, how many percentage have he won the point behind forehand and bh approach.
As i see he had a problem behind bh approach most player (included rec player included me) have: bh is his weaker wing and bh dtl approach goes to the opponent fh wing (and bh cross approach leaves az open court)
What about Anders Järryd?
I barely found a few minutes videos from him
Jarryd beating Becker in the WCT Finals:
Becker beating Jarryd in the Wimbledon SF:
Jarryd beating Becker at the Australian Open:
Accordind to the 3 Jarryd-Becker matches Jarryd likes to attak the net more after his serve than after his grondies, but i am rather interessed in groundie approach patterns..
Musterrific
Hall of Fame
LOL - I've never heard anyone describe Courier as being "pretty good at the net". He had brick hands and was considered a joke compared with his peers in terms of volleying capability.
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
I thought he was quite effective up there. Not any kind of genius, but still better than Agassi. Came a lot to the net in his Wimbledon semi against Edberg. I thought he did ok.
Drob
Hall of Fame
Did not come at all, that I recall.
Drob
Hall of Fame
I would check to see what matches Waspsting has posted for Roddick, Courier, Bruguera, and whomever else might occur to you. That would give you an indication of how often they take to net off an approach shot. It won't be like Connors at all. Roddick at certain periods would be aggressive, but long years of him trying to rally. Bruguera and Courier aggressive, but not enough net. I am sure the player's pattern won't be like Connors. Everything about Connors is unique. I just went through the years mentally and could not think of anyone really. Sure, Wilander could do this and did do it effectively, but rarely. Maybe Gene Mayer, maybe Krickstein, but there won't be much video on them. Let us know if you find someone.
Rosstour
G.O.A.T.
Agassi was the most dedicated player ever and Sampras had every shot in the book. Don't get in the way of the nostalgic delusion
Vincent-C
Legend
I agree with your comment, but AA did change his game dramatically after his layoff and hookup with Gil Reyes..
funnily enough, I enjoyed his earlier, less effective tennis much more. I never could get past those heavy feet, though.
RaulRamirez
Legend
It's hard for me to picture a "play-alike" to Connors -- whether lefty or righty.
Courier isn't toooo far off, but in my mind's eye, I just can't see him hitting sliced approaches to the net - not that this is all Connors did.
He had a just a little of the hard-nosed attitude, but wasn't really a play-alike.
Courier isn't toooo far off, but in my mind's eye, I just can't see him hitting sliced approaches to the net - not that this is all Connors did.
He had a just a little of the hard-nosed attitude, but wasn't really a play-alike.
But the thread is specifically about righties, right?
a10best
Legend
My pick is Stepanek as a rightie.
NonP
Legend
If you're gonna steal a genius observation from your superior (and one of his PMs at that!) at least give credit where it's due, eh?
But yeah, Med's flattish shots that somehow manage to clear the net by mere inches do remind moi of Jimbo's. Of course the big difference is that the Yank was much of more an all-courter who returned/hit from closer to the baseline.
Speaking of the net:
It's pretty comical to see fans of Thomas friggin' Muster or today's baseline bots accusing Courier of being "a joke" at the net with "brick hands," LOL. Here's the reality:
Came in on 13.6% of all points, which alone would be enough to make him something of an all-courter by today's dismal standards. And won 67.6% of 'em, significantly more than any two-hander with a comparable Net Freq (13+% but under 20%) except Kafelnikov (69.2% on 15.6% of approaches), Paire (69.5% on 14.4%) and Tsonga (69.6% on 14.3%). (Pospisil won 70.7% of his own net points on 14.2% of all points, but he's got only 24 matches charted so far.) Yeah, some "joke" he was.
And he also took the ball early a la Connors, though Jimbo was better at it with flatter strokes and, again, more of an all-courter (25.2% in Net Freq, winning 66.4%) to boot.
One more thing:
A-Rod barely won over 60% of his approaches, 61.1% to be exact (which is actually an improvement over 60.7% from only a few months ago). Per TA only 4 other guys were worse. To say he wasn't a natural net player is an understatement, LOL.
Drob
Hall of Fame
interesting stats. not surprised.
And i am interessed in groundie approach patterns (not serve volleys for example Martin)
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
Thanks for the Courier support. Guy got to the wimby final on fast grass playing a lot of s/v.
Drob
Hall of Fame
Following on NonP idea, checked a few players on Tennis Abstract. Connors, of course is on 25.2% to net w 66.4% success. Super, given the frequency of his approaches. Courier as NonP reported.
And, using the Courier 13.6/67.6% as a guide, find some interesting stats.
Career Stats:
Safin: 14.1/66.6%
Moya: 14.5/68%
Chang: 14.0/65.1%
De Minaur: 12.4/70.4%
Borg: 22.6/67.5%
Wilander: 23.9/63.4%
But Borg and Wilander > 20 percent serve-volley. Connors was about 15 percent S/V. So, significantly more net approaches off ground strokes. And TA bases on at least 20 charted matches. I suspect Connors is actually higher than Borg and Wilander than indicated from the TA report.
Moya and Chang some on tennistv archives. Maybe a little Courier, not much. Quite a lot of Safin on that stream. De Minaur, all you want since you can watch him at ongoing tournaments.
Other than Alex, you have six champions to study.
I think Safin would be interesting to chart, no?
Djokovic kind of interesting at 10.9% to net w 70.7% success for career. Does not seem he goes that often, but w the length of his rallies he must eventually some times; going more often in recent years, as we see below.
Which brings me to TA stats for last 52 weeks. Right-handed w two-handed backhand, and they serve-volley < 15% of serves (in most cases much less)
Rune: 13.4/68.2S%
Zverev: 14.8/65.0%
Coric: 12.3/70.8%
Paul: 11.6/72.9%
Berrettini: 12.1 /72.0%
Tiafoe: 12.7/65.2%
Sinner: 11.0/73.9%
Nadal: 11.8/68.6%
Djokovic: 12.8/73.9%
Novak going in more often, but nothing radical.
Other Notes:
Zverev has dramatically increased his net play, up from < 11.5 for career. If he persists and improves the success rate, he might be on to something.
Clearly, Sinner and Paul should go take to net more frequently. Those are wonderful success rates they have in past 52 weeks. If Paul were to approach more often, it might be the difference in making the YEC. And Berrettini has something good going as well. If he could up the success rate just a smidge, and increase his approaches, it might help get him back to a decent ranking.
Generally dramatic fall off in this type of play. Connors may have been exceptionally aggressive, but the drop from Wilander (????) to Safin is astonishing. But Safin would be more net-aggressive than any baseliner today.
Jimmy is laughing his arse off that the only two right-handed baseliners w two-hand BH going to net are Borg and Wilander.
And, using the Courier 13.6/67.6% as a guide, find some interesting stats.
Career Stats:
Safin: 14.1/66.6%
Moya: 14.5/68%
Chang: 14.0/65.1%
De Minaur: 12.4/70.4%
Borg: 22.6/67.5%
Wilander: 23.9/63.4%
But Borg and Wilander > 20 percent serve-volley. Connors was about 15 percent S/V. So, significantly more net approaches off ground strokes. And TA bases on at least 20 charted matches. I suspect Connors is actually higher than Borg and Wilander than indicated from the TA report.
Moya and Chang some on tennistv archives. Maybe a little Courier, not much. Quite a lot of Safin on that stream. De Minaur, all you want since you can watch him at ongoing tournaments.
Other than Alex, you have six champions to study.
I think Safin would be interesting to chart, no?
Djokovic kind of interesting at 10.9% to net w 70.7% success for career. Does not seem he goes that often, but w the length of his rallies he must eventually some times; going more often in recent years, as we see below.
Which brings me to TA stats for last 52 weeks. Right-handed w two-handed backhand, and they serve-volley < 15% of serves (in most cases much less)
Rune: 13.4/68.2S%
Zverev: 14.8/65.0%
Coric: 12.3/70.8%
Paul: 11.6/72.9%
Berrettini: 12.1 /72.0%
Tiafoe: 12.7/65.2%
Sinner: 11.0/73.9%
Nadal: 11.8/68.6%
Djokovic: 12.8/73.9%
Novak going in more often, but nothing radical.
Other Notes:
Zverev has dramatically increased his net play, up from < 11.5 for career. If he persists and improves the success rate, he might be on to something.
Clearly, Sinner and Paul should go take to net more frequently. Those are wonderful success rates they have in past 52 weeks. If Paul were to approach more often, it might be the difference in making the YEC. And Berrettini has something good going as well. If he could up the success rate just a smidge, and increase his approaches, it might help get him back to a decent ranking.
Generally dramatic fall off in this type of play. Connors may have been exceptionally aggressive, but the drop from Wilander (????) to Safin is astonishing. But Safin would be more net-aggressive than any baseliner today.
Jimmy is laughing his arse off that the only two right-handed baseliners w two-hand BH going to net are Borg and Wilander.
Would you have Roddick stats?Following on NonP idea, checked a few players on Tennis Abstract. Connors, of course is on 25.2% to net w 66.4% success. Super, given the frequency of his approaches. Courier as NonP reported.
And, using the Courier 13.6/67.6% as a guide, find some interesting stats.
Career Stats:
Safin: 14.1/66.6%
Moya: 14.5/68%
Chang: 14.0/65.1%
De Minaur: 12.4/70.4%
Borg: 22.6/67.5%
Wilander: 23.9/63.4%
But Borg and Wilander > 20 percent serve-volley. Connors was about 15 percent S/V. So, significantly more net approaches off ground strokes. And TA bases on at least 20 charted matches. I suspect Connors is actually higher than Borg and Wilander than indicated from the TA report.
Moya and Chang some on tennistv archives. Maybe a little Courier, not much. Quite a lot of Safin on that stream. De Minaur, all you want since you can watch him at ongoing tournaments.
Other than Alex, you have six champions to study.
I think Safin would be interesting to chart, no?
Djokovic kind of interesting at 10.9% to net w 70.7% success for career. Does not seem he goes that often, but w the length of his rallies he must eventually some times; going more often in recent years, as we see below.
Which brings me to TA stats for last 52 weeks. Right-handed w two-handed backhand, and they serve-volley < 15% of serves (in most cases much less)
Rune: 13.4/68.2S%
Zverev: 14.8/65.0%
Coric: 12.3/70.8%
Paul: 11.6/72.9%
Berrettini: 12.1 /72.0%
Tiafoe: 12.7/65.2%
Sinner: 11.0/73.9%
Nadal: 11.8/68.6%
Djokovic: 12.8/73.9%
Novak going in more often, but nothing radical.
Other Notes:
Zverev has dramatically increased his net play, up from < 11.5 for career. If he persists and improves the success rate, he might be on to something.
Clearly, Sinner and Paul should go take to net more frequently. Those are wonderful success rates they have in past 52 weeks. If Paul were to approach more often, it might be the difference in making the YEC. And Berrettini has something good going as well. If he could up the success rate just a smidge, and increase his approaches, it might help get him back to a decent ranking.
Generally dramatic fall off in this type of play. Connors may have been exceptionally aggressive, but the drop from Wilander (????) to Safin is astonishing. But Safin would be more net-aggressive than any baseliner today.
Jimmy is laughing his arse off that the only two right-handed baseliners w two-hand BH going to net are Borg and Wilander.
Drob
Hall of Fame
Per TA, based on 103 statted matches:
14.2/61.1%
BTW, the way these stats read, I think the "net frequency" percentages are apart from the S/V rates. In other words, Roddick's 14.2/61.1% would be "from the baseline" so to speak and does not include his S/V statistics. That is how I read it. Maybe @NonP knows for sure. Or maybe it is explained somewhere on the website. I am not very familiar with TA. I just looked at it recently. One reason I say this is that there are players with higher S/V rates than net frequency rates, so the two must be separate.
That being the case, a lot of these players I listed have higher incidents of going baseline to net than I would have thought. Still too low, but encouraging to see like Zverev making a small but real jump in his net frequency.
Angrybirdstar
Semi-Pro
from the glossary:
- SnV Freq% – Serve-and-volley frequency. The percentage of service points (excluding aces) on which the server comes in behind the serve. I exclude aces because serve-and-volley attempts are less clear (and thus less consistently charted) if the server realizes immediately that he or she has hit an unreturnable serve. I realize this is a minority opinion and thus an unorthodox way to calculate the stat, but I’m sticking with it.
- SnV W% – Serve-and-volley winning percentage. The percentage of (non-ace) serve-and-volley attempts that result in the server winning the point.
- Net Freq – Net point frequency. The percentage of total points in which the player comes to net, including serve-and-volley points. I include points in which the player doesn’t hit any net shots (such as an approach shot that leads to a lob winner), but I do not count points ended by a winner that appears to be an approach shot.
- Net W% – Net point winning percentage. The percentage of net points won by this player.
NonP
Legend
You should take a closer look at that TA leaderboard. In his 41 charted matches Connors came in on 25.2% of all points, which makes him an all-courter in my book. Other than outliers like Cressy, Karlovic, Henman, M. Zverev and Brown we haven't seen many players in this century who averaged 25% or more.
Jonas and Radek naturally don't have many matches charted but here's what I see (FYI TA's SnV Freq excludes service points won with aces):
Bjorkman (12 matches) - 49.1% (448/912) Snv Freq, 62.7% (281/448) SnV W%, 31.7% (607/1913) Net Freq, 61.9% (376/607) Net W%
Stepanek (13) - 40.1% (368/917), 63.0% (232/368), 30.8% (629/2042), 63.6% (400/629)
So both in fact attacked the net even more often than Jimbo. Definitely all-courters in their own right. Doesn't look like net rushing is dead in this era of poly, does it?
You might have seen me point this out in that other thread but some people still can't believe even (elite) baseliners like Jim played lots of S&V on grass in those days, LOL.
And yeah, Courier was indeed on a mission that fortnight. Absolutely torched your guy on return in the SF, limiting him to a paltry 31.1% (14/45) of 2nd-serve points won. Not sure even Agassi ever topped that.
More on topic, Moose tells us Jim S&Ved 24 times in the SF and on 21 of SPs in the F vs. Sampras. And came in on 15.6% (38/244) and 14.9% (38/255) of all points respectively, winning 71.1% (27/38) and 65.8% (25/38 - the official box score has 59.4% or 19/32). Not bad for a guy who was this "joke" at the net.
Jimbo's 66.4% conversion rate is indeed excellent considering 1) he's one of the few who win less on S&V attempts (61.6%) than on all net points and 2) he probably has the weakest serve among all OE Wimby champs to boot. I just ran the numbers in a spreadsheet and nobody among fellow net rushers (20% or higher in Net Freq) comes even close to matching his 4.8% turnaround. To better his SnV W% by almost 5% certainly speaks volumes for his ATG transition game.
Or... does it? Here are his potential net-friendly (read: at least 12% in Net Freq) rivals per the TA leaderboard whose overall Net W% outpaces his SnV W% by a comparable margin, ignoring journeymen with too small a sample like Dzumhur (only 23 charted matches) and Mayer (20):
Moya (37 charted matches, 14.5% in Net Freq) - 62.9% in SnV W% vs. 67.9% in Net W%, +5.0%
Chang (58, 14.0%) - 51.8% vs. 65.1%, +13.3%(!)
Courier (47, 13.6%) - 60.8% vs. 67.6%, +6.8%
Rune (45, 13.0%) - 60.2% vs. 69.2%, +9.0%
P. Korda (21, 12.6%) - 64.7% vs. 69.8%, +5.1%
Tiafoe (55, 12.0%) - 55.2% vs. 65.7%, +10.5%
Now what do all these guys have in common? That's right, none of 'em could remotely be labeled servebots. Granted Jim's and Foe's serves did/do get 'em plenty of free points, but not enough to give them a Samprasesque cushion. So we can't just look at the SnV-Net W% differential to judge Jimbo's or anyone's transition game, as it's certain to narrow with a stronger serve. Or, to put it bluntly, you need a weak(ish) serve to have much room for improvement here in the first place!
As to the individual cases, we know almost half of Moya's matches (17/37) took place on clay and nobody would mistake him for a net-hugging daredevil, so he's out of the running. I'd cut Rune some slack for his middling SnV W% as the kid is only 20. And I wouldn't read too much into Korda's numbers given his small sample size and many of those 21 matches are career highlights.
Now Chang's and Tiafoe's own subpar SnV W%s deserve a closer look. Older fans are well aware of the lengths Mike went to experimenting with his serve and his wildly fluctuating 1st-serve % - hitting the rock bottom at 49.0% in '96, which funnily enough still turned out to be one of his best seasons - and when you consider his low SnV Freq of 1.6% (read: using it only as a rare surprise tactic) perhaps his barely acceptable 51.8% success rate shouldn't come as a surprise. I'm not as inclined to be forgiving when it comes to Foe's 55.2%, because, again, he does have an above-average serve and we've seen how effective he can be at the net (I'm particularly thinking of his 4th-rounder vs. Nadal at last year's USO).
So Frances clearly takes a back seat to Jim who S&Ved almost twice as much (3.8% vs 6.6%) for good measure. Of course Courier himself must yield to Connors who more than doubled that (15.8%) and with a weaker serve to boot. So Jimbo's transition game does seem to be among the best of 2nd-tier net rushers (excluding the likes of Mac, Edberg, Rafter and Sampras, obviously), though I'd give special props to Chang himself who's arguably even more disadvantaged than Jimbo - shorter/tinier, for one, and while his Unret% on serve is higher by a seemingly comfortable margin (19.7% vs. 16.5%) that difference probably can be chalked up to respective eras - but somehow manages to put up a respectable Net W%.
TL;DR: you can't just look at Net W% or indeed a single stat only. You gotta take everything into account.
Just wanted to add that those high W%s are why (among other reasons!) I'm skeptical that poly makes net rushing that much more difficult. Yes, passing shots are easier to hit these days, but so are good approach shots due to the bigger sweet spots which might also help with the volleys.
I've no doubt that an Edberg or Rafter would kick plenty of ass today, let alone a Sampras/Becker/Mac with a stronger serve.
Again you should check out the TA table. Anyone with at least 20 charted matches is listed there.
Is that really a minority opinion? Pretty sure aces are excluded from S&V points per most recent scoreboards. (And yes, I say that's how it should be done.)
Even higher than Fed's 15.3%, and won 69.2% vs. 70.3%. That 1.1% difference is in fact about the same as Fraud's edge in SnV W% (68.6% vs. 67.4%), possibly even less cuz he naturally S&Ved more (10.7% vs. 9.5%).
Now you know why Yevgeny remains the last guy to win a major in both singles and doubles.
Drob
Hall of Fame
I would love to see one of the would-be contenders just start doing just that. We see Zverev maybe stepping it up a little, but I mean north of 15 percent - in the high teens or 20 if the tactic is working. The ones who are having success, why don't they increase their attacks? Would obviously help them win a higher portion of the points . . . and would considerably enliven the game.
Very surprised at the poor S/V results on Courier and especially Tiafoe.
You should take a closer look at that TA leaderboard. In his 41 charted matches Connors came in on 25.2% of all points, which makes him an all-courter in my book. Other than outliers like Cressy, Karlovic, Henman, M. Zverev and Brown we haven't seen many players in this century who averaged 25% or more.
Jonas and Radek naturally don't have many matches charted but here's what I see (FYI TA's SnV Freq excludes service points won with aces):
Bjorkman (12 matches) - 49.1% (448/912) Snv Freq, 62.7% (281/448) SnV W%, 31.7% (607/1913) Net Freq, 61.9% (376/607) Net W%
Stepanek (13) - 40.1% (368/917), 63.0% (232/368), 30.8% (629/2042), 63.6% (400/629)
So both in fact attacked the net even more often than Jimbo. Definitely all-courters in their own right. Doesn't look like net rushing is dead in this era of poly, does it?
You might have seen me point this out in that other thread but some people still can't believe even (elite) baseliners like Jim played lots of S&V on grass in those days, LOL.
And yeah, Courier was indeed on a mission that fortnight. Absolutely torched your guy on return in the SF, limiting him to a paltry 31.1% (14/45) of 2nd-serve points won. Not sure even Agassi ever topped that.
More on topic, Moose tells us Jim S&Ved 24 times in the SF and on 21 of SPs in the F vs. Sampras. And came in on 15.6% (38/244) and 14.9% (38/255) of all points respectively, winning 71.1% (27/38) and 65.8% (25/38 - the official box score has 59.4% or 19/32). Not bad for a guy who was this "joke" at the net.
Jimbo's 66.4% conversion rate is indeed excellent considering 1) he's one of the few who win less on S&V attempts (61.6%) than on all net points and 2) he probably has the weakest serve among all OE Wimby champs to boot. I just ran the numbers in a spreadsheet and nobody among fellow net rushers (20% or higher in Net Freq) comes even close to matching his 4.8% turnaround. To better his SnV W% by almost 5% certainly speaks volumes for his ATG transition game.
Or... does it? Here are his potential net-friendly (read: at least 12% in Net Freq) rivals per the TA leaderboard whose overall Net W% outpaces his SnV W% by a comparable margin, ignoring journeymen with too small a sample like Dzumhur (only 23 charted matches) and Mayer (20):
Moya (37 charted matches, 14.5% in Net Freq) - 62.9% in SnV W% vs. 67.9% in Net W%, +5.0%
Chang (58, 14.0%) - 51.8% vs. 65.1%, +13.3%(!)
Courier (47, 13.6%) - 60.8% vs. 67.6%, +6.8%
Rune (45, 13.0%) - 60.2% vs. 69.2%, +9.0%
P. Korda (21, 12.6%) - 64.7% vs. 69.8%, +5.1%
Tiafoe (55, 12.0%) - 55.2% vs. 65.7%, +10.5%
Now what do all these guys have in common? That's right, none of 'em could remotely be labeled servebots. Granted Jim's and Foe's serves did/do get 'em plenty of free points, but not enough to give them a Samprasesque cushion. So we can't just look at the SnV-Net W% differential to judge Jimbo's or anyone's transition game, as it's certain to narrow with a stronger serve. Or, to put it bluntly, you need a weak(ish) serve to have much room for improvement here in the first place!
As to the individual cases, we know almost half of Moya's matches (17/37) took place on clay and nobody would mistake him for a net-hugging daredevil, so he's out of the running. I'd cut Rune some slack for his middling SnV W% as the kid is only 20. And I wouldn't read too much into Korda's numbers given his small sample size and many of those 21 matches are career highlights.
Now Chang's and Tiafoe's own subpar SnV W%s deserve a closer look. Older fans are well aware of the lengths Mike went to experimenting with his serve and his wildly fluctuating 1st-serve % - hitting the rock bottom at 49.0% in '96, which funnily enough still turned out to be one of his best seasons - and when you consider his low SnV Freq of 1.6% (read: using it only as a rare surprise tactic) perhaps his barely acceptable 51.8% success rate shouldn't come as a surprise. I'm not as inclined to be forgiving when it comes to Foe's 55.2%, because, again, he does have an above-average serve and we've seen how effective he can be at the net (I'm particularly thinking of his 4th-rounder vs. Nadal at last year's USO).
So Frances clearly takes a back seat to Jim who S&Ved almost twice as much (3.8% vs 6.6%) for good measure. Of course Courier himself must yield to Connors who more than doubled that (15.8%) and with a weaker serve to boot. So Jimbo's transition game does seem to be among the best of 2nd-tier net rushers (excluding the likes of Mac, Edberg, Rafter and Sampras, obviously), though I'd give special props to Chang himself who's arguably even more disadvantaged than Jimbo - shorter/tinier, for one, and while his Unret% on serve is higher by a seemingly comfortable margin (19.7% vs. 16.5%) that difference probably can be chalked up to respective eras - but somehow manages to put up a respectable Net W%.
TL;DR: you can't just look at Net W% or indeed a single stat only. You gotta take everything into account.
Just wanted to add that those high W%s are why (among other reasons!) I'm skeptical that poly makes net rushing that much more difficult. Yes, passing shots are easier to hit these days, but so are good approach shots due to the bigger sweet spots which might also help with the volleys.
I've no doubt that an Edberg or Rafter would kick plenty of ass today, let alone a Sampras/Becker/Mac with a stronger serve.
Again you should check out the TA table. Anyone with at least 20 charted matches is listed there.
Is that really a minority opinion? Pretty sure aces are excluded from S&V points per most recent scoreboards. (And yes, I say that's how it should be done.)
Even higher than Fed's 15.3%, and won 69.2% vs. 70.3%. That 1.1% difference is in fact about the same as Fraud's edge in SnV W% (68.6% vs. 67.4%), possibly even less cuz he naturally S&Ved more (10.7% vs. 9.5%).
Now you know why Yevgeny remains the last guy to win a major in both singles and doubles.
I dont find it
You should take a closer look at that TA leaderboard. In his 41 charted matches Connors came in on 25.2% of all points, which makes him an all-courter in my book. Other than outliers like Cressy, Karlovic, Henman, M. Zverev and Brown we haven't seen many players in this century who averaged 25% or more.
Jonas and Radek naturally don't have many matches charted but here's what I see (FYI TA's SnV Freq excludes service points won with aces):
Bjorkman (12 matches) - 49.1% (448/912) Snv Freq, 62.7% (281/448) SnV W%, 31.7% (607/1913) Net Freq, 61.9% (376/607) Net W%
Stepanek (13) - 40.1% (368/917), 63.0% (232/368), 30.8% (629/2042), 63.6% (400/629)
So both in fact attacked the net even more often than Jimbo. Definitely all-courters in their own right. Doesn't look like net rushing is dead in this era of poly, does it?
You might have seen me point this out in that other thread but some people still can't believe even (elite) baseliners like Jim played lots of S&V on grass in those days, LOL.
And yeah, Courier was indeed on a mission that fortnight. Absolutely torched your guy on return in the SF, limiting him to a paltry 31.1% (14/45) of 2nd-serve points won. Not sure even Agassi ever topped that.
More on topic, Moose tells us Jim S&Ved 24 times in the SF and on 21 of SPs in the F vs. Sampras. And came in on 15.6% (38/244) and 14.9% (38/255) of all points respectively, winning 71.1% (27/38) and 65.8% (25/38 - the official box score has 59.4% or 19/32). Not bad for a guy who was this "joke" at the net.
Jimbo's 66.4% conversion rate is indeed excellent considering 1) he's one of the few who win less on S&V attempts (61.6%) than on all net points and 2) he probably has the weakest serve among all OE Wimby champs to boot. I just ran the numbers in a spreadsheet and nobody among fellow net rushers (20% or higher in Net Freq) comes even close to matching his 4.8% turnaround. To better his SnV W% by almost 5% certainly speaks volumes for his ATG transition game.
Or... does it? Here are his potential
Could you send me a link of the TA table?
Olli Jokinen
Hall of Fame
Yes, Courier was good that day against Edberg.You should take a closer look at that TA leaderboard. In his 41 charted matches Connors came in on 25.2% of all points, which makes him an all-courter in my book. Other than outliers like Cressy, Karlovic, Henman, M. Zverev and Brown we haven't seen many players in this century who averaged 25% or more.
Jonas and Radek naturally don't have many matches charted but here's what I see (FYI TA's SnV Freq excludes service points won with aces):
Bjorkman (12 matches) - 49.1% (448/912) Snv Freq, 62.7% (281/448) SnV W%, 31.7% (607/1913) Net Freq, 61.9% (376/607) Net W%
Stepanek (13) - 40.1% (368/917), 63.0% (232/368), 30.8% (629/2042), 63.6% (400/629)
So both in fact attacked the net even more often than Jimbo. Definitely all-courters in their own right. Doesn't look like net rushing is dead in this era of poly, does it?
You might have seen me point this out in that other thread but some people still can't believe even (elite) baseliners like Jim played lots of S&V on grass in those days, LOL.
And yeah, Courier was indeed on a mission that fortnight. Absolutely torched your guy on return in the SF, limiting him to a paltry 31.1% (14/45) of 2nd-serve points won. Not sure even Agassi ever topped that.
More on topic, Moose tells us Jim S&Ved 24 times in the SF and on 21 of SPs in the F vs. Sampras. And came in on 15.6% (38/244) and 14.9% (38/255) of all points respectively, winning 71.1% (27/38) and 65.8% (25/38 - the official box score has 59.4% or 19/32). Not bad for a guy who was this "joke" at the net.
Jimbo's 66.4% conversion rate is indeed excellent considering 1) he's one of the few who win less on S&V attempts (61.6%) than on all net points and 2) he probably has the weakest serve among all OE Wimby champs to boot. I just ran the numbers in a spreadsheet and nobody among fellow net rushers (20% or higher in Net Freq) comes even close to matching his 4.8% turnaround. To better his SnV W% by almost 5% certainly speaks volumes for his ATG transition game.
Or... does it? Here are his potential net-friendly (read: at least 12% in Net Freq) rivals per the TA leaderboard whose overall Net W% outpaces his SnV W% by a comparable margin, ignoring journeymen with too small a sample like Dzumhur (only 23 charted matches) and Mayer (20):
Moya (37 charted matches, 14.5% in Net Freq) - 62.9% in SnV W% vs. 67.9% in Net W%, +5.0%
Chang (58, 14.0%) - 51.8% vs. 65.1%, +13.3%(!)
Courier (47, 13.6%) - 60.8% vs. 67.6%, +6.8%
Rune (45, 13.0%) - 60.2% vs. 69.2%, +9.0%
P. Korda (21, 12.6%) - 64.7% vs. 69.8%, +5.1%
Tiafoe (55, 12.0%) - 55.2% vs. 65.7%, +10.5%
Now what do all these guys have in common? That's right, none of 'em could remotely be labeled servebots. Granted Jim's and Foe's serves did/do get 'em plenty of free points, but not enough to give them a Samprasesque cushion. So we can't just look at the SnV-Net W% differential to judge Jimbo's or anyone's transition game, as it's certain to narrow with a stronger serve. Or, to put it bluntly, you need a weak(ish) serve to have much room for improvement here in the first place!
As to the individual cases, we know almost half of Moya's matches (17/37) took place on clay and nobody would mistake him for a net-hugging daredevil, so he's out of the running. I'd cut Rune some slack for his middling SnV W% as the kid is only 20. And I wouldn't read too much into Korda's numbers given his small sample size and many of those 21 matches are career highlights.
Now Chang's and Tiafoe's own subpar SnV W%s deserve a closer look. Older fans are well aware of the lengths Mike went to experimenting with his serve and his wildly fluctuating 1st-serve % - hitting the rock bottom at 49.0% in '96, which funnily enough still turned out to be one of his best seasons - and when you consider his low SnV Freq of 1.6% (read: using it only as a rare surprise tactic) perhaps his barely acceptable 51.8% success rate shouldn't come as a surprise. I'm not as inclined to be forgiving when it comes to Foe's 55.2%, because, again, he does have an above-average serve and we've seen how effective he can be at the net (I'm particularly thinking of his 4th-rounder vs. Nadal at last year's USO).
So Frances clearly takes a back seat to Jim who S&Ved almost twice as much (3.8% vs 6.6%) for good measure. Of course Courier himself must yield to Connors who more than doubled that (15.8%) and with a weaker serve to boot. So Jimbo's transition game does seem to be among the best of 2nd-tier net rushers (excluding the likes of Mac, Edberg, Rafter and Sampras, obviously), though I'd give special props to Chang himself who's arguably even more disadvantaged than Jimbo - shorter/tinier, for one, and while his Unret% on serve is higher by a seemingly comfortable margin (19.7% vs. 16.5%) that difference probably can be chalked up to respective eras - but somehow manages to put up a respectable Net W%.
TL;DR: you can't just look at Net W% or indeed a single stat only. You gotta take everything into account.
Just wanted to add that those high W%s are why (among other reasons!) I'm skeptical that poly makes net rushing that much more difficult. Yes, passing shots are easier to hit these days, but so are good approach shots due to the bigger sweet spots which might also help with the volleys.
I've no doubt that an Edberg or Rafter would kick plenty of ass today, let alone a Sampras/Becker/Mac with a stronger serve.
Again you should check out the TA table. Anyone with at least 20 charted matches is listed there.
Is that really a minority opinion? Pretty sure aces are excluded from S&V points per most recent scoreboards. (And yes, I say that's how it should be done.)
Even higher than Fed's 15.3%, and won 69.2% vs. 70.3%. That 1.1% difference is in fact about the same as Fraud's edge in SnV W% (68.6% vs. 67.4%), possibly even less cuz he naturally S&Ved more (10.7% vs. 9.5%).
Now you know why Yevgeny remains the last guy to win a major in both singles and doubles.
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