Is there a scientific difference in strength if one eats meat, doesn't or it a Vegan?

Zardoz7/12

Professional
I'm a veggie and I go to the gym, weight train ect, I get told by friends that I'd be more likely to have more stamina and strength if I were to eat meat. I've heard this before and I don't know whether it's a lie or scientific fact.
 

ollinger

G.O.A.T.
Some vegetarians don't take needed steps to see they get enough iron and certain vitamins, but if you do, I wouldn't be concerned. Some of what seems like loss of stamina is just losing the will to live without bacon or a big juicy burger.
 

Ramon

Legend
It depends. If you just want to be in good shape and look muscular a vegan diet is fine. If you want to compete in bodybuilding or at the top level of a strength sport, a vegan diet will be liability, but there a few exceptions to the rule like Clarence Kennedy, a vegan weightlifter you can find on YouTube who is amazingly strong. Again, he's the exception, not the rule. The problem with a vegan diet is that it's tough to get enough protein and branch chain amino acids for optimal muscle growth.
 

Ramon

Legend
You need creatine either from red meat or synthetic powdered supplement. It makes a tremendous difference.
Creatine is probably the single best legal supplement you can take to increase strength and muscle gains, but it's still only one part of the equation. Creatine will give you more energy to lift heavier weights and stimulate muscle growth (aka. muscle protein synthesis). However, optimal muscle protein synthesis is only achieved when you have sufficient amounts of protein and BCAA's. BCAA's are most abundant in animal protein sources like dairy, eggs, and meat. They are less abundant in vegan protein, so you need even more protein if your sources are vegan on top of the fact that it's hard to include enough protein from vegan sources in the first place.
 

Ramon

Legend
So a vegetarian diet with dairy is good enough for the proteins you mention.

Or are eggs also required.
I would say just added dairy would do it. Getting it the form of whey protein especially would help because it's convenient and wouldn't add all the extra calories of milk. Of course, if you add eggs to your diet also that's even easier. The problem with strict vegans is they can't eat dairy or eggs.
 

GBplayer

Hall of Fame
I would say just added dairy would do it. Getting it the form of whey protein especially would help because it's convenient and wouldn't add all the extra calories of milk. Of course, if you add eggs to your diet also that's even easier. The problem with strict vegans is they can't eat dairy or eggs.
Although dairy has extra calories, it can help you to lose weight.

https://www.weightlossresources.co.uk/food/dairy-cheese-milk.htm
 
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Sentinel

Bionic Poster
Ostrich eggs pack more punch per egg than chicken eggs.
I recently saw an Iranian movie* which started with ostriches and their eggs. Someone made an omelet with one. Served the entire family.


* The Song of Sparrows (2008). Very good movie.
 

GBplayer

Hall of Fame
I have been reading here and there that dairy actually causes calcium deficiency and weakness in bones. Something about milk not having magnesium ??? So according to one article milk sucks the calcium out of the bones.
Seems to go against articles that I have read.

I drink raw goats milk from a local farm. It has more magnesium than cows milk.
 

ollinger

G.O.A.T.
ostriches and their eggs. Someone made an omelet with one. Served the entire family.
The ostrich itself could serve lots of families; I've read of some getting to 350 pounds. A local burger place in north NJ used to have ossie burgers on the menu, a very dry lean beefish meat similar to bison burgers.
 

Ramon

Legend
Seems to go against articles that I have read.

I drink raw goats milk from a local farm. It has more magnesium than cows milk.
I would do that if I knew where to get it. Pasteurization and homogenation seem to do more harm than good. The all knowing FDA has made it illegal to sell raw milk without the a warning that it's for pet consumption only. Just another stupid nanny state law brought to you by the dairy lobby.
 

ollinger

G.O.A.T.
Pasteurization and homogenation seem to do more harm than good
The harm of pasteurization seems trivial because of the low level heat used, whereas CDC data show your chance of becoming ill from raw milk is 150 TIMES greater (i.e. 15,000 percent greater) than with pasteurized milk.
 

Ramon

Legend
The harm of pasteurization seems trivial because of the low level heat used, whereas CDC data show your chance of becoming ill from raw milk is 150 TIMES greater (i.e. 15,000 percent greater) than with pasteurized milk.
Most of the milk I see in grocery stores now is ultra pasteurized to increase shelf life, so it's heated to 280 degrees F. Does that sound like a low heat level for milk?

There's arguments for and against raw milk, but the point is that the bloated bureaucratic government is making the decision for you, and their laws are driven by lobbyists who don't always act in your best interest. In a true free market society, the consumer would be driving the demand for the products they want.
 

rossignol

Rookie
I have been reading here and there that dairy actually causes calcium deficiency and weakness in bones. Something about milk not having magnesium ??? So according to one article milk sucks the calcium out of the bones.
Yes industrial milk for sure
 

GBplayer

Hall of Fame
Luckily in England you can still buy raw milk, but only directly from the farm and not in shops. Due to its short shelf life. It is sent daily for bacterial count analysis .

In the states you can buy it for your pets. Of course if you love your pets you would check it out for them surely?
 

sureshs

Bionic Poster
FDA only regulates milk which is shipped across state lines. Plenty of places to get raw milk near where I am

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 

Ramon

Legend
Luckily in England you can still buy raw milk, but only directly from the farm and not in shops. Due to its short shelf life. It is sent daily for bacterial count analysis .

In the states you can buy it for your pets. Of course if you love your pets you would check it out for them surely?
I think there's only one health food store in town that sells raw milk. They have to put a warning on it that says "For Pet Consumption Only" but everyone understands who is really drinking it. Last time I checked they were charging $12 for a quart, which I think is outrageous. I certainly wouldn't pay that kind of money to feed it to my pets. Even the organic milk they sell at grocery stores is pasteurized because of the shelf life. Really, the best way to get it is directly from a farm, but there are no dairy farms in my area for hundreds of miles. On top of that you have to make sure they are grass fed, humanely treated, and not given steroid or antibiotics. Too much work!
 

GBplayer

Hall of Fame
I think there's only one health food store in town that sells raw milk. They have to put a warning on it that says "For Pet Consumption Only" but everyone understands who is really drinking it. Last time I checked they were charging $12 for a quart, which I think is outrageous. I certainly wouldn't pay that kind of money to feed it to my pets. Even the organic milk they sell at grocery stores is pasteurized because of the shelf life. Really, the best way to get it is directly from a farm, but there are no dairy farms in my area for hundreds of miles. On top of that you have to make sure they are grass fed, humanely treated, and not given steroid or antibiotics. Too much work!
$1.35 per pint, or 20 fluid ounces. 5 miles from my house. They are primarily cow milk but they got goats to make cheese. Kept outdoors on grass all year round. Get to meet the producers :)
 

WildVolley

Legend
I have been reading here and there that dairy actually causes calcium deficiency and weakness in bones. Something about milk not having magnesium ??? So according to one article milk sucks the calcium out of the bones.
Count me suspicious of this claim. I've seen statistical studies claiming that children who grow up drinking milk are larger in stature than those who don't. That doesn't seem to accord with a difficulty in creating bone calcification.

Of course, I don't think that milk consumption is necessarily as beneficial for adults. As I've gotten older, my milk consumption has greatly decreased, partly because I no longer eat cereal with milk (I generally don't eat any breakfast cereals; I eat eggs instead).
 

Kevo

Legend
Count me suspicious of this claim. I've seen statistical studies claiming that children who grow up drinking milk are larger in stature than those who don't. That doesn't seem to accord with a difficulty in creating bone calcification.
I agree. I actually went to look at the article and found a footnote reference for the claim that pasteurized milk can be a problem with calcium. The reference led to another article which had no reference for the claim. While it might be true that a magnesium deficiency can cause problems with calcium absorption it doesn't mean you have to get your magnesium from milk. Magnesium is available in many different foods and as long as you aren't deficient there shouldn't be any issues with getting calcium from milk.
 

Kevo

Legend
I'm a veggie and I go to the gym, weight train ect, I get told by friends that I'd be more likely to have more stamina and strength if I were to eat meat. I've heard this before and I don't know whether it's a lie or scientific fact.
If you are actually feeling run down or have symptoms you think might be dietary, you should really read up on vegetarian diets. There are some nutrients that are harder to come by in a vegetarian diet that are readily available eating meat. I'm personally not a vegetarian, but if I were ever to try it, I'd make sure to find out what a couple of the better books are on that type of diet and make sure I'm getting everything I needed. Everyone is different and while some people don't have issues switching to a vegetarian diet there are plenty of reports of people that go vegetarian or vegan and end up creating health issues for themselves.
 

onehandbh

Legend
Proof:

My old volkswagen TDI ran on veggie biodiesel. Top speed under 150 mph.

A cheetah eats meat. It cannot go faster than the TDI.

Therefore, vegetarians can go faster than meat eaters.

QED
 

scotus

G.O.A.T.
The strongest of the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu family of Helio Gracie was Rickson, the only meat eater of the Gracie brothers (at least from what I read). A mere coincidence? Dunno.
 

GBplayer

Hall of Fame
Vegan / vegetarian protein builds back muscle to pick them, whereas meat protein builds arm, leg and shoulder muscle to facilitate using bows, spears and be able to chase them.

So having a mixture of meat and vegetable protein gives a better all round physique .
 

-Kap-

Rookie
I'm a veggie and I go to the gym, weight train ect, I get told by friends that I'd be more likely to have more stamina and strength if I were to eat meat. I've heard this before and I don't know whether it's a lie or scientific fact.
Sadly, you're more likely to find "bro science" rather than actual science at the gym. I'm sure your friends mean well, but they probably share the common misconception that without meat you're suddenly protein deficient, which is hardly the case if you're eating a variety of whole grains, legumes, fruits, vegetables and nuts. You certainly don't need meat to get strong and ripped. Just do a Google image search for "vegan bodybuilder" and you'll see countless examples. (Also, not that it relates to your own personal gains in the gym, but consider that our primate cousin, the gorilla, which shares up to 99% of our DNA and is pound-for-pound one of the strongest animals on the planet, eats a 98% herbivorous diet.)

As others have mentioned, supplementing with creatine (which is typically synthetic and therefore vegan) should give you a noticeable energy boost in the gym, and there are a number of different plant-based protein powders to choose from if you feel that you really need additional protein. Definitely take a vitamin B12 supplement, though, unless you regularly eat nori or tempeh, or your diet already includes something that's fortified with it.
 

Ramon

Legend
Sadly, you're more likely to find "bro science" rather than actual science at the gym. I'm sure your friends mean well, but they probably share the common misconception that without meat you're suddenly protein deficient, which is hardly the case if you're eating a variety of whole grains, legumes, fruits, vegetables and nuts. You certainly don't need meat to get strong and ripped. Just do a Google image search for "vegan bodybuilder" and you'll see countless examples. (Also, not that it relates to your own personal gains in the gym, but consider that our primate cousin, the gorilla, which shares up to 99% of our DNA and is pound-for-pound one of the strongest animals on the planet, eats a 98% herbivorous diet.)

As others have mentioned, supplementing with creatine (which is typically synthetic and therefore vegan) should give you a noticeable energy boost in the gym, and there are a number of different plant-based protein powders to choose from if you feel that you really need additional protein. Definitely take a vitamin B12 supplement, though, unless you regularly eat nori or tempeh, or your diet already includes something that's fortified with it.
I already gave a scientific reasoning for animal protein being superior for muscle growth. Have you heard about Muscle Protein Synthesis? Tell me, how much Leucine do you need to get optimal muscle protein synthesis? How much vegan protein does it take to achieve that versus animal protein?
 

-Kap-

Rookie
I already gave a scientific reasoning for animal protein being superior for muscle growth. Have you heard about Muscle Protein Synthesis? Tell me, how much Leucine do you need to get optimal muscle protein synthesis? How much vegan protein does it take to achieve that versus animal protein?
You seem defensive, as if my post somehow challenged or contradicted what you've written, which isn't the case at all. I wasn't directing anything toward you, but simply giving feedback to the OP in a thread that seems to have mostly become a discussion of... milk. :confused:

Your posts above were intelligent, and I agree with them. I was actually going to quote you as well in my original reply when you wrote: "If you just want to be in good shape and look muscular a vegan diet is fine." Protein and amino acids are more concentrated and available in meat, which would take more care and planning (and likely supplementation) for those on a plant-based diet to get the ideal amounts for optimal muscle growth, especially for those putting their bodies through the demands of elite-level strength training programs. The OP obviously isn't at that level, though, considering that he was asking for advice here on a tennis forum, so provided that he's eating a nutritious diet that meets his body's needs, I doubt that his diet is holding back his performance in the gym.

On a side note, what's your opinion on soy vs. whey protein powder?
 

Ramon

Legend
You seem defensive, as if my post somehow challenged or contradicted what you've written, which isn't the case at all. I wasn't directing anything toward you, but simply giving feedback to the OP in a thread that seems to have mostly become a discussion of... milk. :confused:

Your posts above were intelligent, and I agree with them. I was actually going to quote you as well in my original reply when you wrote: "If you just want to be in good shape and look muscular a vegan diet is fine." Protein and amino acids are more concentrated and available in meat, which would take more care and planning (and likely supplementation) for those on a plant-based diet to get the ideal amounts for optimal muscle growth, especially for those putting their bodies through the demands of elite-level strength training programs. The OP obviously isn't at that level, though, considering that he was asking for advice here on a tennis forum, so provided that he's eating a nutritious diet that meets his body's needs, I doubt that his diet is holding back his performance in the gym.

On a side note, what's your opinion on soy vs. whey protein powder?
You're probably right that the OP is just wanting to stay in good shape, in which case an optimal diet for muscle growth is not necessary, and in fact, a vegan diet does have a lot of additional health benefits over a muscle diet, so I'd go along with that.

My opinion on soy protein is: 1) soy is increasingly looked at as unhealthy, 2) soy protein is not as high quality as whey or other animal sources, and most importantly 3) it tastes like crap! So that's why I don't take it. However, if you're vegan and you want muscle, you should probably eat soy products just because there aren't that many other protein rich vegan foods out there.

Here's a good video I found on muscle protein synthesis featuring a researcher who specializes in it. He includes his opinion on vegan proteins . He basically says you'll need a lot more of it, and it's very tough to do.

 

GBplayer

Hall of Fame
You seem defensive, as if my post somehow challenged or contradicted what you've written, which isn't the case at all. I wasn't directing anything toward you, but simply giving feedback to the OP in a thread that seems to have mostly become a discussion of... milk. :confused:

Your posts above were intelligent, and I agree with them. I was actually going to quote you as well in my original reply when you wrote: "If you just want to be in good shape and look muscular a vegan diet is fine." Protein and amino acids are more concentrated and available in meat, which would take more care and planning (and likely supplementation) for those on a plant-based diet to get the ideal amounts for optimal muscle growth, especially for those putting their bodies through the demands of elite-level strength training programs. The OP obviously isn't at that level, though, considering that he was asking for advice here on a tennis forum, so provided that he's eating a nutritious diet that meets his body's needs, I doubt that his diet is holding back his performance in the gym.

On a side note, what's your opinion on soy vs. whey protein powder?
Most soya bean in the USA is genetically modified.

Wouldn't eat it if you paid me. Neither should any true vegan.
 

Ramon

Legend
Most soya bean in the USA is genetically modified.

Wouldn't eat it if you paid me. Neither should any true vegan.
I stay away from soy too. It's kinda funny, but soy has estrogenic compounds, so it might make you into a "girly man"! But I think the more serious problems are it's low BV (biological value) and lack of sulfur containing amino acids. This basically means you need a lot more of it and you need to include other protein sources in your diet (or certain supplements) to get optimal muscle protein synthesis.

https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/soy-friend-or-foe.html

As I mentioned before, the problem with staying away from it if you're a vegan is there's not a whole lot else out there. The other vegan sources of protein are also incomplete, meaning you'll have to have other sources of protein (maybe including soy) to make up for the deficiencies.

If you're a non-GMO vegan, that's going to eliminate soy, corn, and wheat. So you're basically left with seeds, nuts, beans, peas, oats, and quinoa. To make up for lower quality you'll have get about 1.2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight to equal about 0.8 grams per pound of bodyweight for animal protein (so I'm even lowering the bar here). How is a 165 pound man going to get 200 grams of non-GMO vegan protein without getting obese? He's going to have resort to supplements for that, and a lot of it.
 
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-Kap-

Rookie
Here's a good video I found on muscle protein synthesis featuring a researcher who specializes in it...
Thanks for that. I skipped around a bit since the video's so long, but the uploader listed timestamps for the different topics, and the parts I watched were very informative. Also, I should have worded my question better, since I was curious about soy protein powder vs whey protein powder but didn't make that clear. The link that you posted touched on that, though, so thanks again! (I also currently avoid soy, by the way.)

Most soya bean in the USA is genetically modified.

Wouldn't eat it if you paid me. Neither should any true vegan.
Genetically modified food is a trillion dollar industry and so pervasive here that it's becoming practically unavoidable unless you're an extremely meticulous shopper or you grow and raise your own food. Most of the GMO corn and soy is used for livestock feed, so regardless of what you eat, chances are exceptionally high that there's genetically modified food somewhere in your food chain. :eek:
 

Ramon

Legend
Genetically modified food is a trillion dollar industry and so pervasive here that it's becoming practically unavoidable unless you're an extremely meticulous shopper or you grow and raise your own food. Most of the GMO corn and soy is used for livestock feed, so regardless of what you eat, chances are exceptionally high that there's genetically modified food somewhere in your food chain. :eek:
Actually, I think the general sentiment in the non-GMO community is that all soy, corn, and wheat are such genetically modified wrecks that they are beyond repair. You'd have to have a time machine and go back in time for a healthy version of those crops. A true non-GMO believer won't even touch organic soy, corn, or wheat.
 

Ramon

Legend
Here's a video from a very strong vegan weight lifter talking about his diet. He's tracking everything including amino acids. He systematically mixes different sources of protein. He has to do it that way because vegan sources of protein are incomplete. It's a lot of work!

 
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