Is Thiem a Choker?

Jonas78

Legend
14 of 15 break balls missed, he has some mental work to do:rolleyes:. Great match, but he will never beat Nole with those stats. The one break was actually Noles double fault, so he missed 14 of 14...
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
One match does not make someone a choker.

Djokovic is very clutch on break points and rarely makes errors then. One has to win the point... There are no gifts.
I would agree. He seemed nervous on those points, but that's natural when you play the world number 1. I have a feeling that in future matches between the 2 we'll see a better BP conversion rate for Thiem.
 

Mr.Lob

Legend
14 out of 15 break points lost? That's one better than a corpse. Doesn't speak well of one's future, when someone so young chokes so horribly.
 

Jonas78

Legend
14 out of 15 break points lost? That's one better than a corpse. Doesn't speak well of one's future, when someone so young chokes so horribly.
0 of 14, the one break was Noles double fault. Thiem couldnt make one single break point of his own :eek:
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Funny that, I have a feeling that when the 2 of them meet again Thiem will not be close to even getting a break point chance.
Perhaps. Probably depends on when and where they meet again, and how well both Djokovic and Thiem play. Much like this match.
 
Well, Thiem is a Virgo, lol, that sometimes doesn't bode well. Just look up any players born Aug 22 - Sep 22 and see how many were chokers/mentally fragile, etc. You have quite a few headcases on both men's and women's tour in that range :D
 

GoNishi

New User
It depends on the winners/errors stats, which they aren't publishing for ATP matches (although mysteriously they have them on the TV at random times during a match). But considering that The Djoke wins matches when his opponents have 30-40% more winners than him, means Thiem quite possibly lost due to The Djoke's return game.

Choking means you can't hit anything (including winners). So need to see those stats. ~
 

Shaolin

G.O.A.T.
0 of 14, the one break was Noles double fault. Thiem couldnt make one single break point of his own :eek:
Frustrating how no one on tour seems to understand they need to play aggressive to beat the Djobot. No one can outgrind him. It isn't possible. All you can do is play huge and try to pull a Warwrinka, which a lot of guys might be able to do but they puss out.
 

Jonas78

Legend
Frustrating how no one on tour seems to understand they need to play aggressive to beat the Djobot. No one can outgrind him. It isn't possible. All you can do is play huge and try to pull a Warwrinka, which a lot of guys might be able to do but they puss out.
Maybe Kyrgios is the chosen one:rolleyes:...
 

mistik

Hall of Fame
Never ever seen this kind of talentless pathetic generation in my whole life. I dont know maybe they become way too rich early without achieving great things.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Frustrating how no one on tour seems to understand they need to play aggressive to beat the Djobot. No one can outgrind him. It isn't possible. All you can do is play huge and try to pull a Warwrinka, which a lot of guys might be able to do but they puss out.
In fairness, people said much the same about Nadal, but when they played fearless aggressive tennis they usually littered UE's and lost that way instead. I know what you're saying though. They don't give themselves any chance at all playing the way they do.
 

duaneeo

Legend
0 of 14, the one break was Noles double fault. Thiem couldnt make one single break point of his own :eek:
The break points in the final game were simply to get the set back on serve! One would think Thiem had break/match point the way he was shanking balls and spraying UEs.
 

cc0509

Talk Tennis Guru
In fairness, people said much the same about Nadal, but when they played fearless aggressive tennis they usually littered UE's and lost that way instead. I know what you're saying though. They don't give themselves any chance at all playing the way they do.
Nadal was a different story though as a lefty with that lefty spin. That was a whole other thing to have to deal with.

Grinding players aren't going to outgrind Novak on a slow hard court. They have to overpower him with their serve and big groundies or they have to use constant variety or both. You can't outgrind this robot on a slow hard court.
 

Shaolin

G.O.A.T.
In fairness, people said much the same about Nadal, but when they played fearless aggressive tennis they usually littered UE's and lost that way instead. I know what you're saying though. They don't give themselves any chance at all playing the way they do.

Yeah some of these guys do have the power to maybe beat Djoker 2 or 3x out of 10 if they commit to complete aggression from start to finish, but instead they stay back and play their same ol standard baseline game and win 0/10. They need to realize that he's #1 for a reason and go out with a Wawrinka attack gameplan and maybe the Soderling gods will shine on them. Otherwise they're just gonna lose anyway just in a more boring fashion.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Nadal was a different story though as a lefty with that lefty spin. That was a whole other thing to have to deal with.

Grinding players aren't going to outgrind Novak on a slow hard court. They have to overpower him with their serve and big groundies or they have to use constant variety or both. You can't outgrind this robot on a slow hard court.
Same basic idea worked a few times against Nadal though. Gonzalez, Tsonga, Soderling, Murray at USO 2008, and a few others. All in all, I agree though. More guys should go out and just hammer the ball and see what happens.
 

xFedal

Legend
It depends on the winners/errors stats, which they aren't publishing for ATP matches (although mysteriously they have them on the TV at random times during a match). But considering that The Djoke wins matches when his opponents have 30-40% more winners than him, means Thiem quite possibly lost due to The Djoke's return game.

Choking means you can't hit anything (including winners). So need to see those stats. ~
Nole had 5 winner and 35 errors, Thiem was 1/14 on break points, all in all this was great example of Novaks mental toughness to hold of this hungry young beast who beat Nadal this year and has won 2 titles already this year, he had the youth on his side and momentum of defeating Rafael on clay, but they still no match for the ATP Heavy Weight Champion Of The World.
 

metsman

G.O.A.T.
and once again we see that the "next generation" is likely just overhyped just because they beat a big name player who played like crap.

Given Thiem's horrendous performance against Fed in brisbane and now this one he might wanna just stick to the clay...we'll see how he does in clay court season.
 

JJGUY

Hall of Fame
in my book a qualified "choker" is the one who chokes the big lead away, Thiem is just not good at playing big points for now.
 

robok9

Semi-Pro
If you watched most of those break points, Thiem was doing what he does and producing insane shots that would win the point against 99 out of 100 pros, but Djokovic is that 1. I'm no Novak fan, but I think it was just Novak being too good at the right moments. Thiem will be back though. I wanna see a matchup at RG ;)
 

stringertom

Bionic Poster
and once again we see that the "next generation" is likely just overhyped just because they beat a big name player who played like crap.

Given Thiem's horrendous performance against Fed in brisbane and now this one he might wanna just stick to the clay...we'll see how he does in clay court season.
Yeah, he should have skipped Acapulco and let some other choker win the title. Totally incapable of playing off the dirt.:eek:

#ClassicTTKneeJerkReaction:p
 

coloskier

Legend
It depends on the winners/errors stats, which they aren't publishing for ATP matches (although mysteriously they have them on the TV at random times during a match). But considering that The Djoke wins matches when his opponents have 30-40% more winners than him, means Thiem quite possibly lost due to The Djoke's return game.

Choking means you can't hit anything (including winners). So need to see those stats. ~
Choking means you can't hit anything when it counts.
 

okdude1992

Hall of Fame
I don't think he's a choker. He's won a ton of close matches in the past. But he did fail mentally today. I said it in the other thread, Djokovic has that aura in the locker room right now... Anyway 0/14 BP not including the double is pretty awful.
 

LinePainter

Professional
Does any player have a fantastic BP conversion rate against Novak? The man has a pretty average first and second serve yet still has one of the highest service game win %'s. Even Federer, arguably the 2nd best player in the world, has blown BP after BP against Novak in GS events. Are we going to start calling Federer a choker?

Thiem played well, but Djoker forced him to go for too much.
 

stringertom

Bionic Poster
Does any player have a fantastic BP conversion rate against Novak? The man has a pretty average first and second serve yet still has one of the highest service game win %'s. Even Federer, arguably the 2nd best player in the world, has blown BP after BP against Novak in GS events. Are we going to start calling Federer a choker?

Thiem played well, but Djoker forced him to go for too much.
Start calling Fed a choker? That TTW trend started a decade or more ago!
 

ktwtfd

New User
Nole had 5 winner and 35 errors, Thiem was 1/14 on break points, all in all this was great example of Novaks mental toughness to hold of this hungry young beast who beat Nadal this year and has won 2 titles already this year, he had the youth on his side and momentum of defeating Rafael on clay, but they still no match for the ATP Heavy Weight Champion Of The World.
This must be a typo, right?

Right?!!
Yeah, right. That's a typo, but actual numbers won't make much difference: Only 6 winners and 34 UEs for Novak. Also 9 DFs.

It depends on the winners/errors stats, which they aren't publishing for ATP matches (although mysteriously they have them on the TV at random times during a match). But considering that The Djoke wins matches when his opponents have 30-40% more winners than him, means Thiem quite possibly lost due to The Djoke's return game.

Choking means you can't hit anything (including winners). So need to see those stats. ~
Thiem hit 9 winners. Edit: Bad memory. This should be 15 winners, not 9. And 40 UEs.
 
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JumpSmash

Rookie
He needs to play against a version of himself from the future to toughen him up. The future Thieminator will kick the *** of the present Thieminator into shape so that the next time he faces the Serbinator, Dom's conversion of break point chances might be much better. Also, taking care of Sarah Connor could be thrown into the mix! :D
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
How would you rate his mental strength?
Thiem's mental strength and toughness is off the chart. End of first set literally both players sitting down and then the hawkeye review reverses the break; Thiem still came back and played very strong in that game. The final game of the match was like 15 minutes and Thiem withstood 4 Djokovic first serves midgame and won at least two of those points. That is insane toughness and mental strength especially when you have to deal with the missed BPs.

Later in second set, Djokovic wisely backed off his new second serve and also did some conservative first serves because he couldn't get his new improved second serve in the court under pressure (that's choking). Thiem had a high number of DFs, but this was from increasing the speed of his second serve to avoid getting mauled by Djokovic on 2nd serve points.

Reading this thread many have said you have to take it to Djokovic to beat him. Thiem tried to go a little big on many of those break points, but that's the suggested formula. I think Thiem would have been better served by trying to outgrind Djokovic on those points, so maybe next time. Probably a 1 in 4 chance of an R16 rematch in Monte Carlo (fingers crossed.)
 

Serve&Bash

Semi-Pro
0 of 14, the one break was Noles double fault. Thiem couldnt make one single break point of his own :eek:
Djokovic showed some brutal resistance on handful of those Breakpoints. I remember a few where Thiem was hitting the cover of the ball the entire rally but Djokovic just stood his ground and absorbed everything.
 

Max G.

Legend
Djokovic lately as a habit of making opponents look completely ordinary and weak.

Right now, he's so good that his game simply shuts down opponents. It's no coincidence that suddenly, everyone is mentally weak when playing djokovic... he just shows people that even their A-game isn't good enough, and they've got nothing more to give.

Right now the only players on tour that have a game that can hang with Djokovic for at least some time are Murray and Federer, and even they can't close it out against him.
 

JJGUY

Hall of Fame
I agree with your assessment on Thiem's mental state however I think that could also be a problem for him. I don't follow Thiem very closely on every match he played but on a few big ones against top guys, I noticed he maintained almost the same high intensity throughout the entire match. In theory, super focused is a good thing for players, but tennis there will be momentum shift, unless you can run over your opponent, you need to adjust accordingly and try different strategy to win points at different stage, playing the same one dimensional high intensity game not only very demanding but also unbearable especially when your opponent level dips but you still can't win the points. I don't mean Thiem needs to become an up and down player, but he needs to "relax" a bit, add something different to his game, change the pace during the match.

Thiem's mental strength and toughness is off the chart. End of first set literally both players sitting down and then the hawkeye review reverses the break; Thiem still came back and played very strong in that game. The final game of the match was like 15 minutes and Thiem withstood 4 Djokovic first serves midgame and won at least two of those points. That is insane toughness and mental strength especially when you have to deal with the missed BPs.

Later in second set, Djokovic wisely backed off his new second serve and also did some conservative first serves because he couldn't get his new improved second serve in the court under pressure (that's choking). Thiem had a high number of DFs, but this was from increasing the speed of his second serve to avoid getting mauled by Djokovic on 2nd serve points.

Reading this thread many have said you have to take it to Djokovic to beat him. Thiem tried to go a little big on many of those break points, but that's the suggested formula. I think Thiem would have been better served by trying to outgrind Djokovic on those points, so maybe next time. Probably a 1 in 4 chance of an R16 rematch in Monte Carlo (fingers crossed.)
 

Jonas78

Legend
Djokovic showed some brutal resistance on handful of those Breakpoints. I remember a few where Thiem was hitting the cover of the ball the entire rally but Djokovic just stood his ground and absorbed everything.
I am a main choker myself, so with full respect for Thiem, losing 14 is a mental issue, not Noles resistance.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
I agree with your assessment on Thiem's mental state however I think that could also be a problem for him. I don't follow Thiem very closely on every match he played but on a few big ones against top guys, I noticed he maintained almost the same high intensity throughout the entire match. In theory, super focused is a good thing for players, but tennis there will be momentum shift, unless you can run over your opponent, you need to adjust accordingly and try different strategy to win points at different stage, playing the same one dimensional high intensity game not only very demanding but also unbearable especially when your opponent level dips but you still can't win the points. I don't mean Thiem needs to become an up and down player, but he needs to "relax" a bit, add something different to his game, change the pace during the match.
Interesting. I've watched them all and generally Thiem has more lulls (like the early break in the 2nd) and may not wake up til the end of the first set. Other than that his focus was excellent for this match.

That may not be what you were referring to. Thiem's heavy bludgeoning game, especially that kicker first serve, is the one he tends to utilize heavily. He certainly has some variety and did try a return and volley once (which was a failure against Djoko). I think the best he could of done against Djokovic is possibly go into more of a grinder mode where he was not trying to get near lines, but just hit deep with power. Simon waited for Djokovic errors and Thiem may have made a mistake in not employing that strategy along with the normal Dominator mode. Thiem can hit 140 mph serves and probably ought to mix those in more with his 105 mph super kicker. Djokovic was horrible against the first serve kicker in 1st set, but did reasonably well in the 2nd, so Thiem may need to mix it up more for their next encounter.
 

LinePainter

Professional
I agree with your assessment on Thiem's mental state however I think that could also be a problem for him. I don't follow Thiem very closely on every match he played but on a few big ones against top guys, I noticed he maintained almost the same high intensity throughout the entire match. In theory, super focused is a good thing for players, but tennis there will be momentum shift, unless you can run over your opponent, you need to adjust accordingly and try different strategy to win points at different stage, playing the same one dimensional high intensity game not only very demanding but also unbearable especially when your opponent level dips but you still can't win the points. I don't mean Thiem needs to become an up and down player, but he needs to "relax" a bit, add something different to his game, change the pace during the match.
That's a pretty good observation, I think you're right he does need to understand how to use his energy more effectively. As he matures I think he will learn that skill.
 

ForumMember

Hall of Fame
Well, Thiem is a Virgo, lol, that sometimes doesn't bode well. Just look up any players born Aug 22 - Sep 22 and see how many were chokers/mentally fragile, etc. You have quite a few headcases on both men's and women's tour in that range :D
Now I know why I couldn't become a great tennis player.
 
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