Is Thiem now considered better than del Potro?

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Del Potro's USO 2009 run was definitely much more impressive but outside of 2009 he is kinda overrated. Even without injuries I don't see him winning more slams. Just look at his mental collapses against Djokovic in USO 2018 and Rome 2019. He missed a forehand on every big point in these matches. Both are chokers, but Thiem still plays better against the big 3.
 

JackGates

Legend
Del Potro's USO 2009 run was definitely much more impressive but outside of 2009 he is kinda overrated. Even without injuries I don't see him winning more slams. Just look at his mental collapses against Djokovic in USO 2018 and Rome 2019. He missed a forehand on every big point in these matches. Both are chokers, but Thiem still plays better against the big 3.
Delpo has W semi final and also has beaten Djokovic on grass at Olympic games, so he is not overrated.
 

Xavier G

Hall of Fame
I wouldn't necessarily consider Thiem better than Del Potro overall just quite yet. I want to see more of Thiem in the Slam final stages when pressure is on in front of crowds.
JMDP beat prime Nadal and Federer to win his sole Slam to date which is better imo than Dom beating Medvedev and Zverev.
I'd pick peak Delpo over the best Thiem I've seen.
Thiem has reached more Slam finals in different venues though and with having just won a Slam, it's very possible he'll add at least 1 or 2 more.
So will he achieve more than Del Potro in the end? Probably yes.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
By that logic Delpo is better than peak Fedal at RG and we know that's not the case.

You're right that Thiem is not a big match player. Still, I think it's hard to say that Delpo is better than Thiem given that he's actually got straight set wins over Nadal and in 2017 even got one over a resurgent Nadal having some kinda unexpected 3rd peak level of play (albeit a lower peak compared to his actual peak years) on the surface.

It's only been 2 finals for Thiem, with the other two coming from a QF and a R64. The latter two can be excused since he was lower ranked. That leaves 2018 and 2019. The former was a disappointment as he got steamrolled all things considered, whereas he put up a fight and even took a set in 2019 but then got steamrolled in sets 3 and 4. But he took out Djokovic in 5 in the previous round, so he gets credit for that.

Thiem may not be the next ATG or GOAT but I think you're selling him a bit too short here. Whereas you're rating up Delpo on clay very highly based on one match that he nevertheless lost in 2009 in isolation; 2 if you count 2012 DC. But Thiem has recorded annual wins on clay against Nadal since 2016, almost all of them in straight sets, but you disregard them because of matches he played afterwards that as you put it warrant retroactively turning those wins into losses. Well yeah if you discount a win as a loss because of a loss that happens later in the tournament, and rate up a loss as an almost-win because it was close then anyone will reach the conclusions you reached.

Nadal's been bagelled on clay by Fed, and almost got bagelled by Fognini last year. I don't think you should extrapolate a player entirely based on a single close shave. By that logic Fed and Djokovic should also be jokes on clay because the former almost lost to Haas and Delpo while the latter almost lost to Tsonga.
2017 was a SF and it was the first year of Thiem's prime.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Thiem's general level on clay is no better than Ferrer's (and entirely possible it could be worse), that's what I'm selling him as.

He hasn't done a single thing on clay Ferrer couldn't have done. Delpo, even if it was just for 1 tournament (but also literally the only RG he ever played in full physical form), has. Same goes on all surfaces.
I don't think any version of Ferrer would have even beaten 2019 Djokovic at RG.
 

Beckerserve

Legend
So did Thiem. Look at his Grand Slam finals; he lost to the very best at their best tournament. You can't beat that for 'running into the elites' :)

If Thiem retired tomorrow I'd be perfectly OK if people thought of Delpo as the better player; he was indeed a powerhouse and even past his prime has beaten Thiem on several occasions. But Thiem has a long career ahead of him (provided Massu buys him a new pair of shoes). When he is done he'll be well ahead of Delpo, IMO. It won't make Delpo any less of a player by any means



Please stop spamming every thread with this buIIsheet. One thread is enough.

They don't give extra points for beating the Big 3 or the Big 23 for that matter. I'm sure Thiem is perfectly happy to collect titles and winnings vs. the Lesser 3 (Zed, Med and Bust).
I am delighted. I love the Big 3 dominating. And dominate they will now for the next few years. Nothing to fear.
 
D

Deleted member 771911

Guest
Delpo is a better player, imo, but Thiem has a better career.
Delpo has that quality you cannot coach. He just has it, whatever it is. Thiem does not have that. He is very mechanical. It's great mechanics, of course.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Greater? Yeah definitely, just like Zverev will most likely end up being greater than Murray.

But no way he's better IMO. At their best Delpo was level above Thiem on every surface but clay and even there his 2009 FO run is very underrated.

It's hard to rate Delpo because the guy's a genuinely injury prone player that never fulfilled his potential and had younger big 3 (big 4 if you include Murray) to contend with.
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
Thiem's general level on clay is no better than Ferrer's (and entirely possible it could be worse), that's what I'm selling him as.

He hasn't done a single thing on clay Ferrer couldn't have done. Delpo, even if it was just for 1 tournament (but also literally the only RG he ever played in full physical form), has. Same goes on all surfaces.

Eh not sure, Ferrer was much tougher mentally but he had no real weapons (relatively speaking). Thiem has them, they just misfire a lot and he tends to get very tight mentally in big finals.

Not even sure Ferrer was better on clay than he was on HC. He had quite a few deep HC runs and CC depth is pretty shallow compared to HC.
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
Delpo's level >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thiem's level.
You mean the same Delpo that lost to Fed 6-2, 6-0, 6-0 at AO. Yeah, Thiem could never dream of that level.
How many slam finals did Delpo make outside USO?
 

bleno567

Professional
Greater? Yeah definitely, just like Zverev will most likely end up being greater than Murray.

You think Zverev will have a greater career than Murray? In what way? I don't see him winning 3 slams or 2 Gold medals, or beating big 3 at slams as many times, or weeks at #1.

More likely is a young gun like Felix starts dominating and Zverev gets caught in a lost generation slamless.
 

Lavs

Hall of Fame
You think Zverev will have a greater career than Murray? In what way? I don't see him winning 3 slams or 2 Gold medals, or beating big 3 at slams as many times, or weeks at #1.

More likely is a young gun like Felix starts dominating and Zverev gets caught in a lost generation slamless.
Felix will own Zed in a couple of years
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
You think Zverev will have a greater career than Murray? In what way? I don't see him winning 3 slams or 2 Gold medals, or beating big 3 at slams as many times, or weeks at #1.

More likely is a young gun like Felix starts dominating and Zverev gets caught in a lost generation slamless.

I think Zverev has a solid shot to end up with more slams than Murray which would give him a greater career in most people's eyes even though Andy's clearly a better player.

Not sure any of the young guns will end up being dominating players, we might see quite a bit of parity.
 

Nadalgaenger

G.O.A.T.
Delpo is a better player, imo, but Thiem has a better career.
Delpo has that quality you cannot coach. He just has it, whatever it is. Thiem does not have that. He is very mechanical. It's great mechanics, of course.
So Delpo managed 1 M 1000 and 1 slam in his career.
Of course injuries were a huge obstacle, but this mythical Delpo I always hear about is basically like mythical peak Safin or mythical peak Soderling.
Yes, he was in ridiculous form in the 2009 SF against Nadal. But Nadal was injured that tournament and wasn't penetrating the court.
Fed choked big time against Delpo in the 2009 F. Fed should have won in straights.
 

Meles

Bionic Poster
Here we freakin go.

2009 Delpo will always be a better tennis player than any version of Thiem and has produced higher levels on every single surface; nothing Thiem does can ever change that one iota.

2009 Delpo had a better FH, BH, serve, return, touch, netplay, explosiveness than Thiem. More raw power, more stable groundstrokes, more ability to take the ball early. Just an far superior ballstriker. Thiem wins court coverage from 40 feet behind the baseline (mostly because Delpo could go on the offensive even from back there) and you would think fitness (because delpo's fitness was never great), but Thiem is nowhere near as fit as people think he is, so probably not.

Delpo wasn't very far from winning 2 majors in a strong year at age 20. Thiem is 27 years old, utter joke to compare the two as talents.
Some pretty nice fraudulent delusions there but of course we know Taupo is your hero because he beat Fed. never mind that Tim probably mauls Federer on every surface he played on in 2009; wouldn't even be close.
 

ibbi

G.O.A.T.
The only thing he is better than Del Potro at is fitness.

Okay, you can probably give him clay courts too, but that's it.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
So Delpo managed 1 M 1000 and 1 slam in his career.
Of course injuries were a huge obstacle, but this mythical Delpo I always hear about is basically like mythical peak Safin or mythical peak Soderling.
Yes, he was in ridiculous form in the 2009 SF against Nadal. But Nadal was injured that tournament and wasn't penetrating the court.
Fed choked big time against Delpo in the 2009 F. Fed should have won in straights.
Zverev choked big time in the USO final. That's why Thiem even won this title.
 

NoleFam

Bionic Poster
Results wise, Thiem has surpassed Del Potro unfortunately. Del Potro is obviously the better player though and more solid on all 3 surfaces. Thiem does have more bragging rights on hardcourt though by winning USO and making the AO final. Del Potro has been rather disappointing in Australia.
 
T

TheNachoMan

Guest
Delpo would‘ve probably ended up with more slams than Murray and Stan had he stayed healthy. Too bad he’s made of glass
 
That's easy. Watch the 2009 US Open final and then compare it to the 2020 US Open final. It's pretty easy to see who demonstrated a higher level, and it's obviously not Thiem. That said, if you're shooting for consistency, Thiem's got it. He's been a better player week in and week out than Del Potro. Del Potro basically had one summer of consistency, not years, albeit admittedly injuries played a role. They are part of the game, though. Del Potro's fragility will always leave him as a question mark.
 

Lavs

Hall of Fame
That's easy. Watch the 2009 US Open final and then compare it to the 2020 US Open final. It's pretty easy to see who demonstrated a higher level, and it's obviously not Thiem. That said, if you're shooting for consistency, Thiem's got it. He's been a better player week in and week out than Del Potro. Del Potro basically had one summer of consistency, not years, albeit admittedly injuries played a role. They are part of the game, though. Del Potro's fragility will always leave him as a question mark.
Why do you compare the level of play based only on two US Finals (2009 and 2020).
In 2020 Delpo was 20 years old underdog and Federer was clear favourite in that final. So Delpo had NOTHING to lose, and had just relaxed, playing without ANY pressure. He had played out of this world in that final and it was probably his best performance throughout his career.
Thiem stayed on opposite side - he was a favourite, 27 years old, second seeded who lost already 3 GS Final. All these factors together bring HUGE pressure on Thiem, that Zverev fully unilized in the first 2 sets.
And still Thiem handled it perfectly. Wherein having played crappy tennis. Weird but that's how the game's running nowadays :)
So, it is not correct to say that Delpo's higher level tennis because he demonstrated it once in a while.
 

duaneeo

Legend
Del Potro's USO 2009 run was definitely much more impressive but outside of 2009 he is kinda overrated. Just look at his mental collapses against Djokovic in USO 2018 and Rome 2019.

But Delpo is the last player from the 'natural order' era of mens tennis...a time when players won slams/reached slam finals/beat the top players at slams before the age of 21, and (unless a Big-3) were ancient by age 30. ;)
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Why do you compare the level of play based only on two US Finals (2009 and 2020).
In 2020 Delpo was 20 years old underdog and Federer was clear favourite in that final. So Delpo had NOTHING to lose, and had just relaxed, playing without ANY pressure. He had played out of this world in that final and it was probably his best performance throughout his career.
Thiem stayed on opposite side - he was a favourite, 27 years old, second seeded who lost already 3 GS Final. All these factors together bring HUGE pressure on Thiem, that Zverev fully unilized in the first 2 sets.
And still Thiem handled it perfectly. Having playing crappy tennis.
So, it is not correct to say that Delpo's higher level tennis because he demonstrated it once in a while.
Everyone has pressure. Thiem just handed it poorly.

Pressure is no excuse for that atrcious level of play from Thiem.
 

Lavs

Hall of Fame
Everyone has pressure. Thiem just handed it poorly.

Pressure is no excuse for that atrcious level of play from Thiem.
It is.
But you can not compare pressure of player who plays his maden GS Final (Delpo, Stan) and the one who failed already three or more times before (Thiem, Murray).. Perhaps one of the reason why US2012 between Djokovic and Murray (first GS title for Andy, who lost already 4 finals before) was same level crap as yesterday, since Murray wanted to win it badly.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
It is.
But you can not compare pressure of player who plays his maden GS Final (Delpo, Stan) and the one who failed already three or more times before (Thiem, Murray).. Perhaps one of the reason why US2012 between Djokovic and Murray was same level crap as yesterday, since Murray wanted to win it badly.
Murray wanted to win Wimb badly too and he still brought a great level of play in the Wimb 2012 final.

Everyone has pressure, but Thiem played the worst I have seen anyone play under that pressure.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Thiem's general level on clay is no better than Ferrer's (and entirely possible it could be worse), that's what I'm selling him as.

He hasn't done a single thing on clay Ferrer couldn't have done. Delpo, even if it was just for 1 tournament (but also literally the only RG he ever played in full physical form), has. Same goes on all surfaces.

Stop overhyping past events. Ferrer has nothing on Thiem lol. A dream opponent for the big guys. Nobody wants to play Thiem.
 
Achievement wise I still consider JMDP as the more accomplished player by a smidge, however dominic will surpass the Argentinian soon enough.
 

Omega_7000

Legend
Thiem needs to beat Nadal & Djokovic to win majors....He might be able to now with the first slam monkey off his back.
 

ibbi

G.O.A.T.
He is also playing better against the big 3, especially against Djokovic.
Del Potro started playing those guys when they were in their mid to late 20s (or earlier even). Thiem is playing them in their mid to late 30s. Not quite as impressive to me, to be honest. If Del Potro was 5 years younger on the occasions he was fit he'd more than likely feast on all three of them on hard and on grass. Del Potro is not, nor has he ever been, a mental midget. He's one of the very, very few players on tour you can say that about, and Thiem is not one of the others (see the 2017 US Open).
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
Del Potro started playing those guys when they were in their mid to late 20s. Thiem is playing them in their mid to late 30s. Not quite as impressive to me, to be honest. If Del Potro was 5 years younger on the occasions he was fit he'd more than likely feast on all three of them on hard and on grass. Del Potro is not, nor has he ever been, a mental midget. He's one of the very, very few players on tour you can say that about, and Thiem is not one of the others (see the 2017 US Open).
Djokovic wasn't in his mid 20s in USO 2018 and Rome 2019. Yet Del Potro just missed a routine forehand on EVERY BIG POINT in these matches. He can't even beat Djokovic when all he has to do is hit a forehand into an open court. No excuses, sorry.
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Murray wanted to win Wimb badly too and he still brought a great level of play in the Wimb 2012 final.

Everyone has pressure, but Thiem played the worst I have seen anyone play under that pressure.

Coming back from 2 sets behind in a major final is the worst you have seen anyone play under pressure? Fifth time in history this happens. You are exaggerating.

Sure Thiem was under par at the start but it wasnt like he totally collapsed, Zverev was zoning aswell and exposed his "subparness". Thiem woke up later. he got into it eventually and the match came back on his terms while Zverev more and more abandoned his game plan and got nervous.
 

ibbi

G.O.A.T.
Djokovic wasn't in his mid 20s in USO 2018 and Rome 2019. Yet Del Potro just missed a routine forehand on EVERY BIG POINT in these matches. He can't even beat Djokovic when all he has to do is hit a forehand into an open court. No excuses, sorry.
No, true, but neither was Del Potro, right? He was like 30 himself when they played those matches. You bring up Rome 2019, how about Rome 2017 when Djokovic destroyed both those guys back to back? That's Del Potro on his worst surface and Thiem on his best, what's the excuse for that one? Why did Del Potro do far less bad?
 

netlets

Professional
Not at the big stage, Soderling actually has wins at RG versus peak Fedal and Delpo leads Thiem and Soderling in h2h on clay.
Yeah when things don't count Thiem does well. Even Isner pushed Nadal to five at RG, which is more impressive what Thiem has ever done versus to Nadal at the big stage, who cares about bo3 really.

Thiem, just in the last couple of years, has raised his level in a big way, especially on hardcourt. He's made 3 of the past 5 Slam finals. He's beaten the #1 player in the world (Djoker) twice in the semis of a Slam and had him on the ropes in the final. I say Thiem will race past Delpo now and this thread will be strange to look at. Thiem's level in his Slam finals was very good until yesterday - but he won. There are no style points in matches. He will be even more difficult to beat now that he is a Slam champion. That's the way it normally goes for the men. It often goes the other way with the women these days with so many different players winning a Slam. I like Delpo, too, and he would have won a couple of more slams if he wasn't injured so much, which would have been great for tennis. I think Thiem will never see the same pressure again now that he has won a Slam and will be even tougher for the next 5 years.
 

StrongRule

Talk Tennis Guru
No, true, but neither was Del Potro, right? He was like 30 himself when they played those matches. You bring up Rome 2019, how about Rome 2017 when Djokovic destroyed both those guys back to back? That's Del Potro on his worst surface and Thiem on his best, what's the excuse for that one? Why did Del Potro do far less bad?
It took Thiem a while until he learned to play against Djokovic, but after that he won 4 matches, and had good chances in the other 2. Thiem's biggest problem is his mentality.
 

mike danny

Bionic Poster
Coming back from 2 sets behind in a major final is the worst you have seen anyone play under pressure? Fifth time in history this happens. You are exaggerating.

Sure Thiem was under par at the start but it wasnt like he totally collapsed, Zverev was zoning aswell and exposed his "subparness". Thiem woke up later. he got into it eventually and the match came back on his terms while Zverev more and more abandoned his game plan and got nervous.
Yes, I still think Thirm did the worst. He needed a major choke from a first time slam finalist to win his first slam.
 

Feather

Legend
That was the first day after Nadal suffered a historic upset and nerves got to Fed, it was his only real bad match of the whole tourney.

In QF, SF and F he was at his usual 2005-2011 FO level. And yes, that Fed was harder to beat than 30+ year old Nadal in CC BO3 masters.

Exactly! People don't remember it. I think Rafa was upset on May 31 and the very next day Roger played Tommy Haass. Roger knew that was the only chance he had to win French Open and nerves got to him. Imagine the previous final where he lost 1,3,0 to Rafa. It was clear to him that this was his only chance.

But after that match, he played normal. I was worried he will be nervous in the final but he wasn't.. great memories
 

RF-18

Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, I still think Thirm did the worst. He needed a major choke from a first time slam finalist to win his first slam.

You can't have it both ways. No matter the outcome of the match according to you, win or lose, Thiem choked. He can't recieve his due in any scenario.
 

chjtennis

G.O.A.T.
Results don't mean a lot when Delpo had overall much tougher level of field to deal with. Everybody who is objective would probably say Delpo's level is higher. Even h2h solidifies this point, even old way past his best Delpo is 4-0 versus prime Thiem.

I think Thiem's prime started this year. Even last year, I think Thiem was not at his prime, even though he had some wins over Djokovic and Federer.
 
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