Is this really Peak Djokovic?

Towny

Professional
Before I get in to it, I'm aware that a good number of Novak fans on here do not believe that he has been at his peak over the past 12 months. However, there are a vocal portion that do so I would like to address those posters

My contention is that although Novak is playing at a high level (better than Rafa or Fed at an equivalent age certainly) and is capable of peak matches (AO 19 final for instance), he has not been at his peak over the past 12 months and this is because most likely because of his age.

For this comparison, I will be comparing AO11-AO12 Novak, AO15-AO16 Novak and Wim18-Wim19 Novak. I will not be including the Laver Cup from 2018 as it wasn't part of the tour at that stage.

Win loss ratio
2011-12: 77-6 (92.8%)
2015-16: 92-5 (94.8%)
2018-19: 70-9 (88.6%)

Tournaments won/Tournaments entered
2011-12: 11/16 (69%)
2015-16: 13/17 (76%)
2018-19: 7/16 (44%)

Slams
2011-12: 4/5
2015-16: 4/5
2018-19: 4/5

Masters
2011-12: 5/8
2015-16: 6/8
2018-19: 3/9

YEC
2011-12: 0
2015-16: 1
2018-19: 0

Losses
2011-12: Federer, Murray, Del Potro, Nishikori, Ferrer, Tipsarevic
2015-16: Federer, Wawrinka, Murray, Federer, Federer
2018-19: Tsitsipas, Khachanov, Zverev, RBA, Kohlschreiber, RBA, Medvedev, Nadal, Thiem

ATP singles points
Post AO12: 13630
Post AO16: 16790
Post Wim19: 12415

I am in no way trying to denigrate Djokovic. In fact, I think it's a disservice to him to say that Peak Djokovic loses in R3 and R4 of IW and Miami to Kohlschreiber and RBA. It's incredible what he's achieved over the past 12 months in spite of being 32 now and not at his very best.
 
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Before I get in to it, I'm aware that a good number of Novak fans on here do not believe that he has been at his peak over the past 12 months. However, there are a vocal portion that do so I would like to address those posters

My contention is that although Novak is playing at a high level (better than Rafa or Fed at an equivalent age certainly) and is capable of peak matches (AO 19 final for instance), he has not been at his peak over the past 12 months and this is because most likely because of his age.

For this comparison, I will be comparing AO11-AO12 Novak, AO15-AO16 Novak and Wim18-Wim19 Novak. I will not be including the Laver Cup from 2018 as it wasn't part of the tour at that stage.

Win loss ratio
2011-12: 70-6 (92.1%)
2015-16: 85-5 (94.4%)
2018-19: 70-9 (88.6%)

Tournaments won/Tournaments entered
2011-12: 11/16 (69%)
2015-16: 13/17 (76%)
2018-19: 7/16 (44%)

Slams
2011-12: 4/5
2015-16: 4/5
2018-19: 4/5

Masters
2011-12: 5/8
2015-16: 6/8
2018-19: 3/9

YEC
2011-12: 0
2015-16: 1
2018-19: 0

Losses
2011-12: Federer, Murray, Del Potro, Nishikori, Ferrer, Tipsarevic
2015-16: Federer, Wawrinka, Murray, Federer, Federer
2018-19: Tsitsipas, Khachanov, Zverev, RBA, Kohlschreiber, RBA, Medvedev, Nadal, Thiem

ATP singles points
2011-12: 13630
2015-16: 16790
2018-19: 12415

I am in no way trying to denigrate Djokovic. In fact, I think it's a disservice to him to say that Peak Djokovic loses in R3 and R4 of IW and Miami to Kohlschreiber and RBA. It's incredible what he's achieved over the past 12 months in spite of being 32 now and not at his very best.
He is peaking just about at the slams only, currently in 2018-2019.

In 2011 and 2015, He was winning almost everything.
 

Rabe87

Professional
I think the biggest question is, can he reach an even higher level than ever before. It's possible. For me, the best level I've seen this year by a mile was the AO final. That was *peak* Djokovic and then some, his groundies were as big as the biggest hitters out there.

Only he and his team know what to do to improve, his M1000 record is poor by his standards but that's because he's targeting the Slams and has said as much.
 

Towny

Professional
He is peaking just about at the slams only, currently in 2018-2019.

In 2011 and 2015, He was winning almost everything.
But the question is, why is he only peaking at slams? The argument has been made that he doesn't care about masters or the WTF anymore. I've seen no evidence of that from what he has said and that wouldn't explain why he actually has won 3 masters in the past 12 months. I think it's far more likely that he is too old to sustain a 2015-like season and therefore is concentrating his effort more at the slams.

In terms of the slams themselves, I have a hard time believing that 2015 Djokovic would be double match point down against Fed in the final or have himself served up a breadstick in the second set. He's playing very well at the slams, but this isn't the best we've seen of him
 

Rabe87

Professional
But the question is, why is he only peaking at slams? The argument has been made that he doesn't care about masters or the WTF anymore. I've seen no evidence of that from what he has said and that wouldn't explain why he actually has won 3 masters in the past 12 months. I think it's far more likely that he is too old to sustain a 2015-like season and therefore is concentrating his effort more at the slams.

In terms of the slams themselves, I have a hard time believing that 2015 Djokovic would be double match point down against Fed in the final or have himself served up a breadstick in the second set. He's playing very well at the slams, but this isn't the best we've seen of him
You do realise he was double MP down on Feds serve in the USO final in '15, don't you?

Age? He's not using age as an excuse, none of the ATG's are. He has in fact stated his targets are most weeks at numero uno and the Slams, he said it post-Wimby and he said it after winning AO in his pressers.

Learn something from this.
 

Towny

Professional
You do realise he was double MP down on Feds serve in the USO final in '15, don't you?

Age? He's not using age as an excuse, none of the ATG's are. He has in fact stated his targets are most weeks at numero uno and the Slams, he said it post-Wimby and he said it after winning AO in his pressers.

Learn something from this.
Dont know what match you were watching but Novak won in 4 sets in the USO 15 final. You're thinking of the 2011 USO SF, against a much younger Federer.

Of course he's targeting slams; they all are. He was targeting slams in 2015 too but why was he able to dominate outside of slams then but not now?
 

Rabe87

Professional
Dont know what match you were watching but Novak won in 4 sets in the USO 15 final. You're thinking of the 2011 USO SF, against a much younger Federer.

Of course he's targeting slams; they all are. He was targeting slams in 2015 too but why was he able to dominate outside of slams then but not now?
I'll call Novak and ask him? IW and Miami would've been hollow victories considering he was gearing up for clay, then he made two consecutive M1000 clay finals, winning one and losing the other, not a bad effort I must say.

If he tries his best in Toronto, he'll win it. Same with Cincy. If he feels otherwise then he'll decide what's best for him like all tennis players do.

If I had to guess, I would say he got very little kudos for all his M1000 victories and thus has realised he has to win the Slams to get any recognition. That may change after what happened on Sunday, as he's got a lot more positive recognition for his career now.
 

RF-18

G.O.A.T.
To me it is clear, although Djokos stats are better in 2011, that he is a better tennis player now. He does so many things better.

As for 15-16 period, that's recent Novak so they are quite similar but I'd say Djokovic slice is better today than in 2015, he is better at the net aswell. Although it's a short time span to make comparisons.
 

robthai

Hall of Fame
As soon as Felix matures, this dominance is going to come to an abrupt end and Djokovic fans will start saying hes old and washed up as 34 plus years old Djokovic continues to make semis and finals only to lose to an actual great young player who he had the benefit of avoiding during his prime.
 

DjokoLand

Rookie
While 2011 was the best Djokovic to watch as he was unplayable from the back of the court and he was younger with loads of energy I still feel 2015 was his Peak. He had a improved serve,calmness and all the experience it was so clinical.

Now I’d say he is at about 70% of 2015. Still very good but beatable. On 2015 he had a bad match at a masters he would still ease by now he can be beaten.
 

toxicity

New User
I think that Djokovic 2015 is very similar to present Djokovic. He just focus on GS, and maybe Gebhard told him to save his body if he want to play like Roger in late 30'....
 

DjokoLand

Rookie
I think that Djokovic 2015 is very similar to present Djokovic. He just focus on GS, and maybe Gebhard told him to save his body if he want to play like Roger in late 30'....
Too be honest 2015 didn’t necessarily focus on slams since he won 6 masters WTF he just won everything
 
I think that Djokovic 2015 is very similar to present Djokovic. He just focus on GS, and maybe Gebhard told him to save his body if he want to play like Roger in late 30'....
In 2015, Djokovic's average performance in masters events was well beyond what it is now. In 2015, he won six masters, was runner-up in two, and missed one. Even if we discount the loss to Nadal in the Rome final on the grounds that Nadal in 2015 was a pale shadow of his usual self, we still have to factor in Djokovic's poor performances at both Indian Wells and Miami and his loss to Medvedev in Monte Carlo. I would also say that Djokovic played much better in the 2015 Wimbledon final than he did in the 2019 Wimbledon final, and that his loss to Wawrinka at Roland Garros 2015 came against a player performing much better than did Thiem in 2019. (I accept in the latter case that Wawrinka beat him easily whereas Thiem barely got past him, so perhaps the two RG performances are at roughly the same level. Thiem was good at Roland Garros - just not Wawrinka 2015 good).
 
While 2011 was the best Djokovic to watch as he was unplayable from the back of the court and he was younger with loads of energy I still feel 2015 was his Peak. He had a improved serve,calmness and all the experience it was so clinical.

Now I’d say he is at about 70% of 2015. Still very good but beatable. On 2015 he had a bad match at a masters he would still ease by now he can be beaten.
My view on the 2011 v 2015 comparison is:

a) His base level across the whole year was much higher in 2015 than in 2011.
b) His very best level was slightly higher in 2011 than in 2015.
c) He was more explosive in 2011.
d) He was more complete in 2015.
 

GabeT

Legend
Don’t think he’s peaking. He’s at a very high level but only on some tournaments. He’s clearly prioritizing slams. I wasn’t so sure about that before but I can’t argue with the results. He’s gone after every slam with all his might since the last W and I think he only prioritized Cincy among masters because it was the one he was missing. I think he’ll continue to do that, play masters and try to go deep to keep ATP points but only really go all out for slams.
 
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NoleFam

G.O.A.T.
He is not peaking like 2015 and early 2016 but clearly smack in his prime. I think comparing each year from the same time frame would have been a better comparison though.
 

ScottleeSV

Professional
The fact he looked fresh after 5 hrs on Sunday probably bodes well for his next 2/3 seasons. He doesn't look like he's aging yet in tennis terms.

The manner of the win should toughen him up as well (if he needed it).
 

Luka888

Hall of Fame
But the question is, why is he only peaking at slams? The argument has been made that he doesn't care about masters or the WTF anymore. I've seen no evidence of that from what he has said and that wouldn't explain why he actually has won 3 masters in the past 12 months. I think it's far more likely that he is too old to sustain a 2015-like season and therefore is concentrating his effort more at the slams.

In terms of the slams themselves, I have a hard time believing that 2015 Djokovic would be double match point down against Fed in the final or have himself served up a breadstick in the second set. He's playing very well at the slams, but this isn't the best we've seen of him
Because he is not 25 any more. He has to preserve his energy. He won all masters already. So, obviously his goal is to play enough masters and get enough points to keep his #1 and to win more majors. He didn't say it regarding masters because it would be politically incorrect but :censored:.

He learnt it from the best, Fed. As for the best seasons, it's a toss up. He is much more mature nowadays. He is smarter.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
You do realise he was double MP down on Feds serve in the USO final in '15, don't you?

Age? He's not using age as an excuse, none of the ATG's are. He has in fact stated his targets are most weeks at numero uno and the Slams, he said it post-Wimby and he said it after winning AO in his pressers.

Learn something from this.
 

Rabe87

Professional
Fanerer you got me! I meant 2011 USO SF, do you feel happy? Or still bitter that Fedski lost to King Nole for the 3rd time in a Wimby final.

Don't go into a career as a psychic, you're the new Suresh.
 

Rabe87

Professional
Can you actually make a thread stating emphatically Fed will win '19 USO? That would all but ensure he'll fail miserably, although that's the most likely outcome regardless of your actions.
 

True Fanerer

G.O.A.T.
Can you actually make a thread stating emphatically Fed will win '19 USO? That would all but ensure he'll fail miserably, although that's the most likely outcome regardless of your actions.
Atleast I had the cahones to do it unlike yourself that only shows up here after a Djokovic slam win. I didn't base it on a hunch either. He played well enough to win it. No shame from my end, Padre. You keep making a fool of yourself if you want to. Our interactions will be over soon because everyone knows you don't stick around for long.
 

OhYes

Legend
Before I get in to it, I'm aware that a good number of Novak fans on here do not believe that he has been at his peak over the past 12 months. However, there are a vocal portion that do so I would like to address those posters

My contention is that although Novak is playing at a high level (better than Rafa or Fed at an equivalent age certainly) and is capable of peak matches (AO 19 final for instance), he has not been at his peak over the past 12 months and this is because most likely because of his age.

For this comparison, I will be comparing AO11-AO12 Novak, AO15-AO16 Novak and Wim18-Wim19 Novak. I will not be including the Laver Cup from 2018 as it wasn't part of the tour at that stage.

Win loss ratio
2011-12: 77-6 (92.8%)
2015-16: 92-5 (94.8%)
2018-19: 70-9 (88.6%)

Tournaments won/Tournaments entered
2011-12: 11/16 (69%)
2015-16: 13/17 (76%)
2018-19: 7/16 (44%)

Slams
2011-12: 4/5
2015-16: 4/5
2018-19: 4/5

Masters
2011-12: 5/8
2015-16: 6/8
2018-19: 3/9

YEC
2011-12: 0
2015-16: 1
2018-19: 0

Losses
2011-12: Federer, Murray, Del Potro, Nishikori, Ferrer, Tipsarevic
2015-16: Federer, Wawrinka, Murray, Federer, Federer
2018-19: Tsitsipas, Khachanov, Zverev, RBA, Kohlschreiber, RBA, Medvedev, Nadal, Thiem

ATP singles points
Post AO12: 13630
Post AO16: 16790
Post Wim19: 12415

I am in no way trying to denigrate Djokovic. In fact, I think it's a disservice to him to say that Peak Djokovic loses in R3 and R4 of IW and Miami to Kohlschreiber and RBA. It's incredible what he's achieved over the past 12 months in spite of being 32 now and not at his very best.
Not his peak ofc, but it is not good to use stats for 2018-2019 because he has whole different tactical approach and mindset. He is concentrated more on Slams instead on Masters, therefore he has some worse results than in previous years.
 

TheAssassin

Legend
He isn't, back in the day he dominated the Masters too. But he has been playing very well for a 31/32 year old.

And once again he had to earn Wimbledon the hard way, which didn't look like it would be the case when some of his competitors in the draw collapsed early.
 
My view on the 2011 v 2015 comparison is:

a) His base level across the whole year was much higher in 2015 than in 2011.
b) His very best level was slightly higher in 2011 than in 2015.
c) He was more explosive in 2011.
d) He was more complete in 2015.
2011ovic had a higher base level too until he crashed out with that shoulder injury. AO-USO 2011 was some of the most crushing dominance ever seen.
 

TripleATeam

Legend
2019 is not even close to 2015 or 2011, except for in the AO final. That Novak just came from nowhere and reminded us who was on top just 4 years ago.
 

The Guru

Rookie
2011 Novak is better than 2015 Novak. The man had 2 losses when the USO ended and 1 was a retirement. He just ran out of steam and anyone who can watch a match from 2011 and 2019 and say that Novak was worse than this one is out of their damn mind.
 

Jonas78

Legend
He is not at his peak imo. He can play matches or parts of matches which reminds you of his absolute peak, but he has more off-days. I dont think this Federer would be so close to a victory in 2015.
 

chimneysweep

Semi-Pro
No, he was better in 2011 and 2015-first half of 2016 for sure. He might be prime, that is debateable. Peak, not a chance. The field is just so weak, and the up and comers so weak, and he is closer than Nadal or Federer, so he should dominate.
 

chimneysweep

Semi-Pro
LOL...

so his peak just happened to coincide with Nadal and Federer (for parts of that time) being in poor form?
Nadal wasnt in poor form in 2011. Poor form is 2015-2016, he has been better in his career than 2011 but he was playing fine. He was making all the finals, Djokovic just beat him in them all.

Federer wasnt poor in 2011 or even 2015 at all. He was better those years than 2010 or maybe even mono Fed in 2008 when Rafa coincidentally had his best years.
 

Ann

Hall of Fame
Djokovic's skills have ebbed just like the other 2 members of the Big 3. His have just waned less than 6 year older Federer.

This would be obvious if we weren't in the middle of the weakest era in men's tennis.
 

Rabe87

Professional
Djokovic's skills have ebbed just like the other 2 members of the Big 3. His have just waned less than 6 year older Federer.

This would be obvious if we weren't in the middle of the weakest era in men's tennis.
Again, you confuse opinion with facts.

Djokovic def. Federer. For the 26th time.

Have you learnt anything?
 

Ann

Hall of Fame
Again, you confuse opinion with facts.

Djokovic def. Federer. For the 26th time.

Have you learnt anything?
Troll, if you're over 12 years old you are so emotionally stunted your mom should take you to therapy.

You're on ignore little boy, so post stupid trolly garbage to your weak little heart's content.

Buh-bye.
 

MeatTornado

Legend
How am I a troll when I'm posting facts and you're posting conflated absurd opinions based on nothing more than your delusion.

I'm praying for a cure for menopause for your sake.
Sure, Novak winning for the 26th time is a cut and dry fact. But what does that have to do with whether or not he's at his peak? What does #26 prove?

Also, this right here is 100% opinion, so you're just as bad as everyone else here.
I'll call Novak and ask him? IW and Miami would've been hollow victories considering he was gearing up for clay, then he made two consecutive M1000 clay finals, winning one and losing the other, not a bad effort I must say.

If he tries his best in Toronto, he'll win it. Same with Cincy. If he feels otherwise then he'll decide what's best for him like all tennis players do.

If I had to guess, I would say he got very little kudos for all his M1000 victories and thus has realised he has to win the Slams to get any recognition. That may change after what happened on Sunday, as he's got a lot more positive recognition for his career now.
 

powerangle

Legend
2011 Novak had consistently the highest level (before the fall season)
2015 Novak was the most successful in terms of result because he was calmer and more experienced
2018-2019 Novak is the wisest and preserving his body and peaking for the majors

I don't think the current Novak is at his peak but he is targeting and mainly focusing on the slams, that's why his slam results are still the same (4 out of 5) but the main tour results are worse.
 

Raining hopes

Hall of Fame
2011>=2015-16mid. >> 2018-19.

Secluded performance reach that level of near peak, but not really on a consistent basis.



2015 Djokovic murders both of Fedal 2018-19 WB in 4.

2016,2011 clay season probably takes away at least one RG from Rafa of 2018-19.

2011 on HC doesn't lose a set in USO 2018,AO 2019
 

Rabe87

Professional
Sure, Novak winning for the 26th time is a cut and dry fact. But what does that have to do with whether or not he's at his peak? What does #26 prove?

Also, this right here is 100% opinion, so you're just as bad as everyone else here.
I open that post with sarcasm, then I later say 'If I had to guess", please, get a life instead of frothing at the mouth over my post history, you've been on TTW forums for far too long.

And what does #26 prove? That it's better than #25, which is better than #24 and so on.

Mathematics much?
 

Rabe87

Professional
2011>=2015-16mid. >> 2018-19.

Secluded performance reach that level of near peak, but not really on a consistent basis.



2015 Djokovic murders both of Fedal 2018-19 WB in 4.

2016,2011 clay season probably takes away at least one RG from Rafa of 2018-19.

2011 on HC doesn't lose a set in USO 2018,AO 2019
I am so excited to see him play in Canada, firstly because he only has 3R points to defend but secondly because I'm hoping he'll ascend to an even higher level than 2011/2015 and become something we haven't seen before. I still believe he can reach farther.
 

Raining hopes

Hall of Fame
I am so excited to see him play in Canada, firstly because he only has 3R points to defend but secondly because I'm hoping he'll ascend to an even higher level than 2011/2015 and become something we haven't seen before. I still believe he can reach farther.

He is getting the world no. 1 record no matter what. But no need to over exert before USO. It's much more about mental exhaustion than physical at this point.

I don't want anything more than a good USO. Defending Cincy would be great.



Don't think he can surpass those levels outright.Even this season, only the AO F feels like something out of top shelf 100%Novak of past.

He can't keep that level for lesser tourneys. He even lost early in couple of masters this season


However his focus on slams is the real deal. His level is good enough to reach later stages, and once he changes gears in those matches no one can stay with him.
 

er4claw

Rookie
It doesn't matter if it is. Either way if poor fed so debilitated by age had match points against any version djovack, against PEAK (2003 TMC- 2007 Ao) fed there would have been a 6-1 6-3 6-0 score in the match.
 
I am so excited to see him play in Canada, firstly because he only has 3R points to defend but secondly because I'm hoping he'll ascend to an even higher level than 2011/2015 and become something we haven't seen before. I still believe he can reach farther.
You really want that reality check. :D
 
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