Is this serve good enough for 4.0?

J

johnmccabe

Hall of Fame
I've been building my serve for a while. Do you think I have enough spin and pace for 4.0? I know placement and consistency are more important for winning matches. just want to get the swing right before working on precision etc.

 
Probably not. They will take one look at your serve and decide you may NOT play at 4.0 level.


Seriously, your practice serves have very little to do with determining if you can play at a 4.0 level....but you know that, right?
 
johnmccabe said:
I've been building my serve for a while. Do you think I have enough spin and pace for 4.0? I know placement and consistency are more important for winning matches. just want to get the swing right before working on precision etc.

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As long as you're not DFing a lot, most serves would be good enough for 4.0; not necessarily mid-level or higher but enough to get the point started. I'd need to see the rest of your game as well as your 3Fs [footwork, fitness, focus, and spacing].
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
As long as you're not DFing a lot, most serves would be good enough for 4.0; not necessarily mid-level or higher but enough to get the point started. I'd need to see the rest of your game as well as your 3Fs [footwork, fitness, focus, and spacing].
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I'm just try to build one thing at a time. In real matches, probably at bottom 3.5 right now.
 
johnmccabe said:
I'm just try to build one thing at a time. In real matches, probably at bottom 3.5 right now.
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But what would you say are the biggest 3 reasons why you're where you are now? Is it your serve? If so, keep concentrating on it. But if it's for other reasons [inconsistency, poor shot tolerance, lack of mental toughness, etc], then you need to shift your focus. Work on the things that will give you the most bang for the buck: everyone says the serve is the most important shot in tennis but if your serve is reasonable, you'd stand to gain by working on bigger weaknesses.
 
S&V-not_dead_yet said:
But what would you say are the biggest 3 reasons why you're where you are now? Is it your serve? If so, keep concentrating on it. But if it's for other reasons [inconsistency, poor shot tolerance, lack of mental toughness, etc], then you need to shift your focus. Work on the things that will give you the most bang for the buck: everyone says the serve is the most important shot in tennis but if your serve is reasonable, you'd stand to gain by working on bigger weaknesses.
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I'm fairly new. Been learning for 2 years, mostly self-taught and not enough court hours.

Indeed trying to decide how much more time I should spend on serve vs something else.
 
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Keep your left hand up longer.

Make sure you have a good defence as your serve is quite easy to attack.
 
Yes, it's good enough. I play 4.5 and your serve is just as good as mine. Here's a video from a doubles match earlier this year, although these guys are all over 55, they are still 4.5 players. I'm in the grey shirt and black shorts.

 
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atatu said:
Yes, it's good enough. I play 4.5 and your serve is just as good as mine. Here's a video from a doubles match earlier this year, although these guys are all over 55, they are still 4.5 players. I'm in the grey shirt and black shorts.
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Over 55?! Lookin’ pretty good. :cool:
 
You can win at 7.0 with a Schwartzman serve or a Isner serve. But if you have a Schwarzman serve, you had better be in the top echelon at your level for returns and baseline game in general. I think it is similar at every level including 4.0 for singles.

If your serve is a weapon against 4.0s that can create service winners or easy point patterns, there is less stress on other parts of your game to be much better than your opponents. If not, the other parts of your game have to be better.

Whenever I play with successful players at the top of a NTRP level or at the next level, it seems like one of the key differentiators is a better serve - more pace/spin or pinpoint location. They usually are good returners for their level also.
 
socallefty said:
You can win at 7.0 with a Schwartzman serve or a Isner serve. But if you have a Schwarzman serve, you had better be in the top echelon at your level for returns and baseline game in general. I think it is similar at every level including 4.0 for singles.

If your serve is a weapon against 4.0s that can create service winners or easy point patterns, there is less stress on other parts of your game to be much better than your opponents. If not, the other parts of your game have to be better.

Whenever I play with successful players at the top of a NTRP level or at the next level, it seems like one of the key differentiators is a better serve - more pace/spin or pinpoint location. They usually are good returners for their level also.
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Yes! I should probably shift focus a little and work more on return. It's definitely bigger bang for the buck in terms of improving my overall game right now. Fixing split step timing in the last few weeks. I thought SS timing is an on/off switch. Apparently no. Everytime I record my return of serve, my SS only gets just a little earlier compared to the previous week. The hardest thing for me is not to attempt winner on weak serves.
 
GSG said:
Me either. I'd rather be a strong 5.0, but such is life. ;)
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Sorry man.... I have absolutely zero disrespect for your style. You totally changed how I view tennis as a rec sport. I'll go back to fishing when I become a weak 4.0 with a good looking game. So far, I kinda got the "look" and the "weak" part, quite far away from 4.0.
 
johnmccabe said:
Sorry man.... I have absolutely zero disrespect for your style. You totally changed how I view tennis as a rec sport. I just hope to be a weak 4.0 looking like Fed. So far, I kinda got the "look" and the "weak" part, quite far away from 4.0.
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No worries, it just struck me as amusing. Good luck in your quest!
 
FiddlerDog said:
Dude, a significant portion of 4.0 players dink their 2nd serve.
Serve means almost nothing until 4.5 level.
Below that, the slower you serve, the more effective it is at generating errors
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In this post

The literal best player on the planet can't return an underarm serve

The literal best player on the planet can't return an underarm serve. But 100% of underarm serves will be crushed for winner, even by a 3.0 (just like moonballs) ? Also, note that Gael is one of the few ATP players who can actually execute a real underarm serve, just like Chang.
tt.tennis-warehouse.com tt.tennis-warehouse.com

you stated how there's no comparison between a median 3.5 serve [a level lower than 4.0] and an underarm serve. But here you state "a significant portion of 4.0 players dink their 2nd serve." if that's true, then it must not be going appreciably faster, if at all, than an underarm serve.
 
Are you seriously going to continue to make the argument that a 3.5 median serve is no faster than an underarm serve?
"portion of 4.0 second serves" is not to be confused with median 3.5 first serve.

Honest question, and no offense intended, but have you been diagnosed as being on the spectrum?
You exhibit all the telltale signs!
 
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Yes easily a 45 mph serve you can get in 80% of the time is good enough to play 4.0 all day. Most people overhit and dump returns in the net if you give them the opportunity.
 
FiddlerDog said:
Are you seriously going to continue to make the argument that a 3.5 median serve is no faster than an underarm serve?
"portion of 4.0 second serves" is not to be confused with median 3.5 first serve.
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The exact quote is:

"But many, especially on their 2nd serve, aren't generating much spin or speed. The major difference is the height of the bounce between a regular and underhand serve."

I never said the underarm was just as fast; just that the speed difference is not as great as you perceive.

I'll let the reader decide.

Caveat: I don't live in an area where the "3.5s hit harder than Nadal", as one poster so famously stated.

Honest question, and no offense intended, but have you been diagnosed as being on the spectrum?
You exhibit all the telltale signs!
Click to expand...

I'll let the reader decide that one too.
 
johnmccabe said:
I don't want to be strong 4.5 MEP, rather be a weak 4.0 with good looking balanced game. Winning is not everything to me.
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Yeah. I recently had to make the decision myself.

While I never pushed the way MEP does, I was always a counter-puncher who minimized mistakes and wore my opponents out. When I got short balls I would attack them and get to the net when I could. This worked great against opponents weaker than me and even against average 4.0s.

But now that I'm stuck playing 4.5s moonlighting as 4.0s, it's no fun to be on the defensive as much. I'm really working on tweaking my game to just being aggressive the entire match. It's hard because I still get nervous and start pushing too much, but I would rather be a below average 4.0 and have fun than be a 4.5 who just survives on defense.
 
FiddlerDog said:
Nadal disabled
serving 95mph serves (rec level serves)
was enough to befuddle Fritz
who was spraying them all over the place
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Obsession with mph is definitely not the best way to develop serves. Higher level players know better when to use speed. I don't believe they are less capable of hitting flat bombs.

4.0s used to be 3.5s. if you believe 3.5s hit harder serves than 4.0s, it must be because the 4.0s learned to trade power for more effectiveness
 
johnmccabe said:
You mean some folks start off high like 5.5 and slowly drop to 4.0 because of aging?
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Not that far lol, but yeah start at 4.0 or 4.5. Maybe a 5.5 would become a 4.0 around age 70 if they still played 18+. I knew a guy like that once, he played for Texas A + M a lonnnnng time ago.
 
It is good as long as your 1st serves don't get attack by other 4.0 players and they goes it often enough.
From the video, it looks like it has enough pace at 4.0.
For return of serve, just return the damn ball. Your first rule is return it; 2nd rule, return it high and deep(er). If you can reset your opponent's serves everytime, you will win some easy points.
 
As long as you have other 4.0 attributes, the serve won’t stop you from being a 4.0. At 4.5 it will, especially if you don’t have a second serve, it will get punished. Your serve looks effective.
 
johnmccabe said:
I've been building my serve for a while. Do you think I have enough spin and pace for 4.0? I know placement and consistency are more important for winning matches. just want to get the swing right before working on precision etc.

Click to expand...
if other parts of your game are solid, an underarm serve that you can place well, is good enough to compete at 4.0.
 
mikelikesgatorad said:
Some 4.0s only have a serve and some 4.0s have garbage serves but will get to anything if you don't force them to miss. Anything from <50 mph to 100+ mph is 4.0 range.
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3.5-4.0 tennis is the box of chocolate levels in tennis. At 4.5 most folks can serve, return and hit grounds consistently. At 3.4-4.0 it's a mixed bag. Some guys are big hitters with consistency issues and some are dinkers that run everything down. Most are somewhere in between.

So yes the OP's serve is fine for 4.0 if he recognizes he will need to win points with something other than his serve.
 
johnmccabe said:
just want to get the swing right before working on precision etc.
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What?

Working on getting precision is how you refine your swing.

Forget about pace, that comes after.

Isner aces people with 100mph serves all the time because he is so precise (but his geometry makes it easier to be precise).

If you can land those serves deep in the corners at 65 mph, you're golden.
 
johnmccabe said:
Sorry man.... I have absolutely zero disrespect for your style. You totally changed how I view tennis as a rec sport. I'll go back to fishing when I become a weak 4.0 with a good looking game. So far, I kinda got the "look" and the "weak" part, quite far away from 4.0.
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Maybe not. I took quite a hiatus from tennis, and when I tried it again, I was surprised at how much I'd missed it. Now I play for laughs and it's a fun way to get some exercise.
 
atatu said:
Yes, it's good enough. I play 4.5 and your serve is just as good as mine. Here's a video from a doubles match earlier this year, although these guys are all over 55, they are still 4.5 players. I'm in the grey shirt and black shorts.

Click to expand...
That was a super high lob at 9:27. Why didn't your partner let it bounce?
 
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