Is this UTR to NTRP conversion chart accurate?

woodje12

Rookie
I just noticed something funny on the descriptive UTR chart. A "consistent first serve" is an earlier / lower-level achievement than "a consistent second serve"?

Maybe they mean "pro-quality 95+ mph second serve" or something. But I don't see how you get beyond beginner tennis without a consistent second serve.
I think that actually makes sense because it's close to what you say at the end. Maybe not "pro-quality 95+" but at least a 2nd that has some pace along with kick/shape to it and doesn't get you murdered against a solid player.

As for progression, that's what I have seen a lot at the 3.5 level -- dude hits his 1st hard and flat getting it in maybe 60% of the time. Then for his 2nd he pops it in to avoid the DF. Sadly, I actually hate these fluffy 2nd's as I still struggle to generate my own pace. Of course, thankfully most guys don't figure this out and keep firing 1st's that I can do something with.

Just like BG says in Winning Ugly, it's all about figuring out "who is doing what to who[m]" -- so many smart people play dumb tennis...
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
I saw that once before , but still based on that my UTR should be about a 6, but it's 4.28.

I love the idea … hoping in a couple years it gets worked out. I'd love to play a high level 13 year old and have a good competitive match in a tournament.
do all your opponents also have UTR ratings?
a while a go i was rated a 7...
at the time, i only had 1-2 guys with no utr ratings of their own
then one of the guys (a 5.0), who beat me like 2,3 - went on to play a bunch of other matches... and his rating went up to 11, which seemed to boost my rating to 9
i have since played a couple of matches in a utr tourney (8,13), so my utr has leveled out to a 9.01
so i went from 7.35 -> 8.58 -> 9.01 (or sometime like that).

Here are the ranges from the horse's mouth:
https://myutr.com/media/UTR_Player_Range.pdf

Apparently 4.0 men should have UTRs ranging from 4.5 to 7.0.
If you were a 4.0 woman then it would make more sense as they range from 3.5 to 5.0
yeah, i'd think 4.0 (and 3.5) has a large range, because they make up the bulk of a distribution curve (since usta uses ntrp as a bucketing system, not as a skill measurement)

***

other reason your utr may not fall in the range of utr...
is that you play mostly dubs, and have an ntrp rating based on dubs.
but you're looking at your utr:singles rating
i know folks that are very high 4.5 (4.39 ish based on TR or TLS), but would really suck at singles (because they don't have mobility, endurance)...
and vice versa,... have a lower than usual ntrp rating, they are strong at singles, but atrocious at dubs (and have some bad beats at dubs that will bring down their ntrp rating).
 

Fabresque

Hall of Fame
No chance on earth is this chart correct. I’m a UTR-7 and a 4.5 (recently got bumped from a 4.0)

I know a UTR-9 who also participated in 5.0 leagues. Believe it or not a UTR-9 can play in low level mid major D1’s like #5 or 6
 

Rosstour

Legend
Sorry to necro this thread, but there is a UTR event coming up this weekend and I don't know which division to enter.

I think I'm about a 4.0, but I haven't played any events in a while.

They have a 1-3, 4-6, 6-8, and Open w/prize money. The Open only has one player so far and he's a friend of mine (the guy who beats me badly all the time). Another friend is in the 4-6 division and today I beat him 1/1.

Is the 6-8 the right place for me to be?
 

jz000

Rookie
I'm a 0.0
Categorizing ratings are a detriment to your tennis progression.
Just look at my other thread/posts and the responses you'd get lol.
 

OnTheLine

Hall of Fame
Sorry to necro this thread, but there is a UTR event coming up this weekend and I don't know which division to enter.

I think I'm about a 4.0, but I haven't played any events in a while.

They have a 1-3, 4-6, 6-8, and Open w/prize money. The Open only has one player so far and he's a friend of mine (the guy who beats me badly all the time). Another friend is in the 4-6 division and today I beat him 1/1.

Is the 6-8 the right place for me to be?
If you are about a 4.0, I find that most 4.0 men (over the age of 40) who are decently competitive are in the 6 UTR range a few float up to 7 and some down to 5

I take it you are totally unrated in UTR? No USTA matches in a while?
 

Rosstour

Legend
If you are about a 4.0, I find that most 4.0 men (over the age of 40) who are decently competitive are in the 6 UTR range a few float up to 7 and some down to 5

I take it you are totally unrated in UTR? No USTA matches in a while?
Yeah exactly right on both counts. I do have some results in my profile from a charity event I played in 2018 but still no rating. So 6-8 division is probably the right one?
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
Sorry to necro this thread, but there is a UTR event coming up this weekend and I don't know which division to enter.

I think I'm about a 4.0, but I haven't played any events in a while.

They have a 1-3, 4-6, 6-8, and Open w/prize money. The Open only has one player so far and he's a friend of mine (the guy who beats me badly all the time). Another friend is in the 4-6 division and today I beat him 1/1.

Is the 6-8 the right place for me to be?
The prize money division, of course.

1-3 is obviously too low.

How good of a 4.0 do you think you are? If on the lower-end, enter 4-6 for sure. If on the upper-end, it's your call. 4.5 with a UTR 7 is common.

What NTRP is your friend that you breadsticked?
 

Rosstour

Legend
The prize money division, of course.

1-3 is obviously too low.

How good of a 4.0 do you think you are? If on the lower-end, enter 4-6 for sure. If on the upper-end, it's your call. 4.5 with a UTR 7 is common.

What NTRP is your friend that you breadsticked?
He has to be a 3.5, I think, although the three of us mostly just play each other and haven't done any sanctioned events in a long time. But I've played 3.0s in the past and he would wreck them.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
Interesting how much UTR has changed since those first charts were shown. Looking at the last few years of play for me and opponent and team NTRP and UTR ratings for USTA 3.5 more UTRs are 3-4 and for 4.0 UTRs are 5-6. That said, for 3.5 Nationals most players were pushing UTR 5, and in our 4.0 league now our strongest teams have guys pushing UTR 7. So at the top of any rating there is always some spill over players right at the top. There are a few UTR 4s in the 4.0's, but those are just guys playing up and usually backups for teams and not regularly playing in line-ups.

So what I see in equivalency (at least from opponents and teams I have played here and at Sectionals/Nationals):

NTRPUTR
3.0-3.253
3.25-3.404
3.41-3.605
3.60-3.906
3.90-4.20ish7
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
In my area, men’s 4.5 starts around UTR 6.

Interesting! Most of my matches in 4.0 right now are against UTR 6 players (don't knkow if low six or high six, but UTR 6 none-the-less). and they are not even the top 4.0 players. We went 7/5 0/6 8/10(tb) against two UTR 6, and last weeks was 3/6 5/7 against a UTR 6 and 7. I am mostly D1 or D2, so stronger guys for sure.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Interesting! Most of my matches in 4.0 right now are against UTR 6 players (don't knkow if low six or high six, but UTR 6 none-the-less). and they are not even the top 4.0 players. We went 7/5 0/6 8/10(tb) against two UTR 6, and last weeks was 3/6 5/7 against a UTR 6 and 7. I am mostly D1 or D2, so stronger guys for sure.
From Ian at Essential Tennis
 

Moon Shooter

Semi-Pro
It does seem that utr seems to be inflated compared to ntrp. However I think part of this change in conversion could be due to usta’s decision not to update the ratings in 2020. In other words utr has been tracking the progress of improving players while ntrp stood still. So it is ntrp that is deflated and we may see several ntrp bumps that put this back in line. I guess we will see on December first.
 

Moon Shooter

Semi-Pro
According to Ian’s chart, a 7.0 UTR would be a mid 4.5, with higher than 7 approaching 5.0.
I am not sure if Ian's chart differentiates men and women. I think his chart seems correct for women in my area but not for men. Overall I would say comments from Moveforwardalways and jdawgg make me think not having regionals or nationals last year may have created considerable pockets of imbalances. Chael's and On the Line's views seem more similar to what I am seeing.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
From Ian at Essential Tennis
According to Ian’s chart, a 7.0 UTR would be a mid 4.5, with higher than 7 approaching 5.0.
I've seen Ian's chart and other charts. I can only go by who I am actually playing in the matches and their UTR to NTRP conversion is as I see above. Maybe something to do with hold over ratings too, so maybe December will sort a lot of this out.

And guess what. Since you brought it up I went to the USTA app and found that 7 UTR kid is listed DQ'd with a 5.0 rating now. Wow. Have heard about double bumps in SR, but never seen it. I mentioned I looked him up after playing and found he had some college pedigree, so that makes sense. I think the 7 UTR is managed as it was, but the 4.0 team play was well above my pay grade. That team actually had 3 DQs. So maybe the first chart is what IS supposed to be the UTR to NTRP, just not what we are seeing in Arizona.

Waiting for December!
 
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Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
I am not sure if Ian's chart differentiates men and women. I think his chart seems correct for women in my area but not for men. Overall I would say comments from Moveforwardalways and jdawgg make me think not having regionals or nationals last year may have created considerable pockets of imbalances. Chael's and On the Line's views seem more similar to what I am seeing.
Maybe, I can’t speak for other areas. But I do personally know several adult USTA 4.5 men with UTR less than 7. I do not know any adult USTA 4.0 or 4.5 women with a UTR even close to 6. Of course, in my area very few adults play UTR events and almost every adult UTR is based on pulling USTA matches from the USTA site and calculating based on that.
 

Moon Shooter

Semi-Pro
Interesting! Most of my matches in 4.0 right now are against UTR 6 players (don't knkow if low six or high six, but UTR 6 none-the-less). and they are not even the top 4.0 players. We went 7/5 0/6 8/10(tb) against two UTR 6, and last weeks was 3/6 5/7 against a UTR 6 and 7. I am mostly D1 or D2, so stronger guys for sure.
so the team you went 3/6 5/7 with had a 5.0 player and a 4.0 with utr 6.xx?


Maybe, I can’t speak for other areas. But I do personally know several adult USTA 4.5 men with UTR less than 7. I do not know any adult USTA 4.0 or 4.5 women with a UTR even close to 6. Of course, in my area very few adults play UTR events and almost every adult UTR is based on pulling USTA matches from the USTA site and calculating based on that.
My area seems to have relatively more mixed doubles league play so it may not be the best indicator. But the two 3.5 women on my mixed doubles league tend to have have 4.75ish UTRs. For example tennis record shows one 3.5c rated as having a 3.38 (so about 3/4s of the way to 4.0) and she has a doubles UTR of 4.82. I would think to jump all the way to 4.5 she would have to gain at least 2.5 UTR. I am not confident tennis record has the other 3.5 woman player correct but she has a utr that hovers around 4.75. There is also a low 4.5c female (4.06 according to tr) with a utr of 7.48. USTA is not rating any mixed matches and so it may not be accurately tracking progress of players in areas that play more mixed doubles.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
so the team you went 3/6 5/7 with had a 5.0 player and a 4.0 with utr 6.xx?
This is the match. Obviously hiding names for TT compliance.



B kid played an Open championship with 0/0 wins over UTR 6 players and competitive splits sets with a UTR 8 in R16 of the tourney, and a 4.5 tourney singles with solid wins. That said, I played some lights out tennis for that match (bomb and placed first serves at about 80% and only 2 DF's the whole match), as did my partner, and we really picked on the UTR 6, if that is even a thing. lol.
 

Moon Shooter

Semi-Pro
Sounds like a fun match. Having your serve click can really make a difference. I know my own game really suffers from serve and serve receive. You and your partner should get a utr boost from that match.

I pay for a month of utr every so often when I am interested. I think it is like $10. Being able to see the full data is helpful. I can tell when my rating will go up or down as well as when the ratings of people that have played with me will go up or down - even though they didn't play.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
You and your partner should get a utr boost from that match.
Interestingly, not really. I have been floating between 5.0 to 5.5 even with competitive matches like this against solid 5 and 6 players. But we played two strong 6's the other day, winning the first set 7/5, but losing the second 0/6. Then almost winning the tiebreak but losing 8/10. And I just checked my UTR and that or something just dropped it down to 5.01. And I just had to bow out of this weeks match with a neck issue, so knowing UTR I will probably be a 4.xx again. lol.

I was thinking about it. It used to drive me crazy, but now it is just curiosity as to why. The number is what it is and really doesn't keep me from playing against the level of players I feel most competitive and where I have opportunities to win as I continue to improve. (y)
 

Moon Shooter

Semi-Pro
Interesting. UTR shows which matches boosted and lowered your rating and by how much in a graph. Are you saying this match point is below your rating? Also if one of the people you partnered with in the past had a big win that may have lowered your rating. I'm not sure how many matches you have in UTR but I only have 5 so I can see how my matches effect my own and other peoples ratings. I can also see how other players wins and losses effect my rating.
 

Rosstour

Legend
So I signed up for the 6-8 division but the recent posts in here have me thinking I may have bit off more than I can chew. My buddy and I have both drawn 8th-grade girls in the first round and I'm anticipating getting totally smoked.
 

S&V-not_dead_yet

Talk Tennis Guru
So I signed up for the 6-8 division but the recent posts in here have me thinking I may have bit off more than I can chew. My buddy and I have both drawn 8th-grade girls in the first round and I'm anticipating getting totally smoked.
Going toe-to-toe with her is probably not your best bet. See how they handle slice, moonballs, shorties, etc. In other words, everything except standard rally balls. Maybe throw in some S&V, like Djoker did vs Meddy in Paris.
 

Moon Shooter

Semi-Pro
This has lined up pretty well with my experience:

Also the idea that men's UTR is different than women's is stupid.
Men’s ntrp is different then women’s ntrp. I am saying the utr conversion in Ian’s chart fits women’s ntrp in my area. It does not fit for the men’s ntrp in my area.

Edit: according to that chart a UTR 4.5 can be a male ntrp 3.0 a 3.5 or a 4.0.
 
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Cashman

Hall of Fame
That chart in the OP is wack

I would not describe an ITN 2 as a pro (although they are very good players), and I have seen UTR 11s who would not be anywhere near ITN 2 level
 

schmke

Hall of Fame
That chart in the OP is wack

I would not describe an ITN 2 as a pro (although they are very good players), and I have seen UTR 11s who would not be anywhere near ITN 2 level
ITN was actually ever used? o_O Seriously, did Australia use it at all? Did Tennis Australia calculate it based on some set of matches?
 

Cashman

Hall of Fame
ITN was actually ever used? o_O Seriously, did Australia use it at all? Did Tennis Australia calculate it based on some set of matches?
In a very limited way. There were a few qualified ITF assessors, and a handful of competitions that offered points for calculating it.

I think it was mostly used around the ITN 3 and low ITN 2 level - i.e. the group of players who were not quite good enough to be nationally ranked

Never really got off the ground though, you had to pay extra to get one and you only really needed it to get into a couple of specific competitions
 

Rosstour

Legend
Going toe-to-toe with her is probably not your best bet. See how they handle slice, moonballs, shorties, etc. In other words, everything except standard rally balls. Maybe throw in some S&V, like Djoker did vs Meddy in Paris.
So I actually lost this match yesterday haha. Very close. She blew me out in the first, just nerves and a bit of awkwardness. I had her down 4-1 in the second, let her back in to force the TB. Won the TB and played super TB to decide the match. I was up 8-4, let her back in to tie and eventually she took it 12-10 (I had two match points).

She was a very tough player, mentally unbreakable and methodical. She probably handled the conditions better than I did--there was a 3hr rain delay and we had to play at off-site courts with insane wind that evened the physical gap quite a bit.

It was a decent size event so I played the full back draw today. Won two matches and then lost the final to an 18 year old guy.

My really good buddy made it to the Open SF, his GF lost 2x in the 1-3 draw, and my other friend made it to the second round of the 3-4. Lots of fun, very challenging and we were all glad we did it.
 

Rosstour

Legend
What's weird is that my UTR moved from UR to 4.21 after my match with the little kid. She was a 4 and still is.

But after beating a 5 and a 4 in the backdraw and losing to a 5 in that Final...zero movement in my UTR. I don't get. The tournament director was stumped as well.
 

BallBag

Professional
What's weird is that my UTR moved from UR to 4.21 after my match with the little kid. She was a 4 and still is.

But after beating a 5 and a 4 in the backdraw and losing to a 5 in that Final...zero movement in my UTR. I don't get. The tournament director was stumped as well.
Did you play on Sunday? It usually takes a day or 2 to update.
 

Moon Shooter

Semi-Pro
What's weird is that my UTR moved from UR to 4.21 after my match with the little kid. She was a 4 and still is.

But after beating a 5 and a 4 in the backdraw and losing to a 5 in that Final...zero movement in my UTR. I don't get. The tournament director was stumped as well.

If a few of you have newer ratings then it will bounce around for a while - maybe longer.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
I know most people won't divulge their ratings, but would be curious if there are any offical UTR 7's that are also rated NTRP 4.0, and if possible where TennisLink has their dynamic rating. I looked through a bunch of our local 4.0 teams this year and last and still see the majority are UTR 5-6, but I did catch a few UTR 4's that most likely were fringe 5's. Not a 7 to be found though.

Just was curious since someone just liked this thread I had a while back for examples of 4.0 play (the continuing saga of ratings lol).
 

rallyfries

New User
I know most people won't divulge their ratings, but would be curious if there are any offical UTR 7's that are also rated NTRP 4.0, and if possible where TennisLink has their dynamic rating. I looked through a bunch of our local 4.0 teams this year and last and still see the majority are UTR 5-6, but I did catch a few UTR 4's that most likely were fringe 5's. Not a 7 to be found though.

Just was curious since someone just liked this thread I had a while back for examples of 4.0 play (the continuing saga of ratings lol).
My UTR is 7 and I'm listed as a NTRP 3.5C.
 

BallBag

Professional
7.17, 4.0C and TR has me at 3.88. I have some results against junior players that are bolstering my UTR. That's the nice thing about playing juniors, they keep getting better even if you don't. I split sets against a UTR 7.25 like 10 months ago. She's a UTR 8 now so UTR thinks I should be too.
 
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Moon Shooter

Semi-Pro
I know most people won't divulge their ratings, but would be curious if there are any offical UTR 7's that are also rated NTRP 4.0, and if possible where TennisLink has their dynamic rating.
Do you mean what "Tennis record" has their dynamic rating? I didn't think tennislink shows your dynamic rating.

I agree this would be interesting.
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
My UTR is 7 and I'm listed as a NTRP 3.5C.
7.17 and 4.0C. I have some results against junior players that are bolstering my UTR. That's the nice thing about playing juniors, they keep getting better even if you don't. I split sets against a UTR 7.25 like 10 months ago. She's a UTR 8 now so UTR thinks I should be too.
Was thinking about that since we are still on that hold over rating from 2019.

Do you mean what "Tennis record" has their dynamic rating? I didn't think tennislink shows your dynamic rating.

Yeah, Tennis Record is what I meant. Thanks.

I was curious what the true dynamic rating is since they are somewhat updated and at least close to a current NTRP instead of the hold over rating.
 

Doan

Rookie
The best singles guy on my recent 4.0 team is UTR 7 with a TR of 3.95. He's definitely on the 4.5 borderline as 2 of the guys who beat him in singles got DQ to 4.5 soon after.
 

Tthcr

New User
This is a conversion chart on UTRs support page from summer of 2021
 
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