Is this what sandbagging for nationals looks like?

Vox Rationis

Professional
So the infamous DF 4.0 Utah teams that won 3 straight 4.0 national titles has been heavily discussed. In one of the threads I mentioned that last year So Cal might have been the only team with a legitimate shot at beating them. The reason for that were their two best players may have conceivably been on par if not even better than Utah's ringers. I stumbled upon video of one of them from his matches last year. The first one is from his first match of the year where he was trying to establish his self-rating. The second is from his last match at Nationals where the gloves were off. You decide for yourself, is this the anatomy of a sandbagger?



Here's the background. The subject of this post, JW (not naming names here but you can look up the team easily enough), had a history of being a UTR10 player. Even immediately prior to nationals last year he played in an open California tournament and had 5.0 level results. He had a 6-4 6-4 win over a UTR 9, a 2-6 6-7 loss to a UTR 10, and a 5-7 2-6 loss to a UTR 11. And all his prior years were full of similar results, beating 9s and competitive with 10s and 11s. I would consider that the results of a huge ringer at 4.5 nationals let alone 4.0 nationals.

The other player is EC. He was computer rated but was something like 4.38 on TennisRecord heading into nationals. Half a year later he is now rated 4.51 on TennisRecord. He has gone 18-2 this year as a 4.5 with his only two losses coming in tournaments early in the year. He recently went 3-0 at So Cal sectionals including a 6-1 6-1 win over a 4.42 rated player at singles 1 in the sectional finals. So essentially he lead his team to 4.5 nationals this year. In terms of UTR, his isn't as high as the guy above. He's an 8, but potentially a high 8 as he has several comfortable wins over other 8s, as well as some tight 3 setters against 8s as well. So seemingly he's at the top pf the 4.5 mountain...except he was about this level as a 4.0 last year too.

The rest of the team had some solid guys. They also had one college player, RK, who was DQ'd by a grievance for I can only assume lying about his background. Point being if the two guys above won their matches So Cal would have only needed one more upset somewhere to have defeated a Utah team we consider one of the most out of level teams we've seen at nationals.
 
The one good thing that could come out of WTN is to have it used as part of self-rating. How this player (or a few from the Utah team last year) were able to self-rate at 4.0 I'm not sure, but if WTN ratings are being calculated from junior and tournament matches, and the USTA has a mapping from WTN to NTRP, presumably some of these players would be required to self-rate higher.
 
He was just rusty, needed to play matches to get back in top form.
You don't swing 100% when you are coming back into tennis, just play slow and keep eyes on the ball in order to bring back your game.
When you think you've got a good read again, boom. That's what he was doing, imo.
 
Did the first guy (the self-rated one) get DQ'ed after Nationals last year? Looks like he won his 3 singles matches pretty handily, but maybe they weren't strikes (only one of his three opponents got bumped up at year end).

The second guy only played doubles at Nationals, winning all four matches but they were close - he lost two sets. According to TR his partners were pretty strong so those matches did not rate especially highly for him. If he was really this much better at singles (as he is showing now), I wonder why he didn't play there at Nationals. Another guy on the SoCal team lost two singles matches, and that ended up being the difference in the standings.
 
Did the first guy (the self-rated one) get DQ'ed after Nationals last year? Looks like he won his 3 singles matches pretty handily, but maybe they weren't strikes (only one of his three opponents got bumped up at year end).

The second guy only played doubles at Nationals, winning all four matches but they were close - he lost two sets. According to TR his partners were pretty strong so those matches did not rate especially highly for him. If he was really this much better at singles (as he is showing now), I wonder why he didn't play there at Nationals. Another guy on the SoCal team lost two singles matches, and that ended up being the difference in the standings.
To be fair, losing to someone badly who has an underrated rating will definitely help you avoid the year end bump. Not saying they would have gotten bumped at year end otherwise. But that doesn’t help.

And personally I think they were saving EC for the big showdown but the rain prevented that from happening. It’s definitely possible they thought he was strategically better to use in doubles though. They had about 2-3 other national level singles players to use too. I think AJ was their 3rd best and he lost in 3 sets to the guy from Middle States JRB was saying had dominated 4.5 last year as a 4.0C.

Sidenote: The UTAH number 2 blew the Middle States guy out of the water.

But back to So Cal, AJ’s other loss was to a ridiculously over leveled Southern player with an extremely recent 2 star junior background as well. So their 3rd best guy unfortunately ran up against basically the two best singles players not on So Cal or Utah.

What’s sad is all of these guys were well known going into nationals. It was obvious they were all 5.0s compared to the rest. And I think most of them were self rates. It’s totally preventable, but at the end of the day we have to accept that USTA isn’t all that interested in keeping a level playing field. Not where the moneys at.
 
He was just rusty, needed to play matches to get back in top form.
You don't swing 100% when you are coming back into tennis, just play slow and keep eyes on the ball in order to bring back your game.
When you think you've got a good read again, boom. That's what he was doing, imo.

Yeah ok sure
 
He was just rusty, needed to play matches to get back in top form.
You don't swing 100% when you are coming back into tennis, just play slow and keep eyes on the ball in order to bring back your game.
When you think you've got a good read again, boom. That's what he was doing, imo.
But you also shouldn't self-rate at your "rusty" level if you know the rust is going to fall off quickly.
 
I know quite a few 5.0s, including several that have taken extended leaves from the game. They are never at a 3.5 level. On their worst days, with a broken leg, they are not 3.5s.

Just as another data point, I was a 2 star/borderline 3 star (UTR 11.02) after high school but took an extended break from tennis during college and got back into USTA after 5 years of inactivity. I'd dropped down to a 4.5 from not playing regularly but was able to get bumped back up to 5.0 after one full season.

There's no way I'd drop to 3.5 in level unless you chop off my playing hand or break both of my legs.
 
It’s totally preventable, but at the end of the day we have to accept that USTA isn’t all that interested in keeping a level playing field. Not where the moneys at.
Strangely though, Nationals itself does end up being a fairly level playing field - all the high 4.5 (or even 5.0) guys playing in 4.0 leagues across the country come together to battle it out. Last year's 4.0 Nationals were quite close at the top - there were multiple teams who were a couple of match tiebreaks away from being the champ.
 
Strangely though, Nationals itself does end up being a fairly level playing field - all the high 4.5 (or even 5.0) guys playing in 4.0 leagues across the country come together to battle it out. Last year's 4.0 Nationals were quite close at the top - there were multiple teams who were a couple of match tiebreaks away from being the champ.
This is heresy. USTA is totally honest competition that is just for fun. Nobody sandbags or cheats in any way.
 
Strangely though, Nationals itself does end up being a fairly level playing field - all the high 4.5 (or even 5.0) guys playing in 4.0 leagues across the country come together to battle it out. Last year's 4.0 Nationals were quite close at the top - there were multiple teams who were a couple of match tiebreaks away from being the champ.
That’s because they didn’t play it out. I don’t think the semis were going to be very close.

Also all the 4.5/5.0 guys coming together to make 4.0 nationals somewhat competitive isn’t a good thing. Look at the reaction of the opponent from the 2nd video. He was a 3.9X coming into that match and just shook his head at how ridiculous it was to have to play someone like that.
 
What 5.0 gonna hit with your 3.5 level fitness/rust unless you pay them?
A rusty 5.0 is a good 4.5. People don’t drop that far from rust. That’s why they have former college players who haven’t played in a decade self-rate at 4.5 or 5.0 depending on the division they played.

Also you realize the guy was playing open and money tournaments every year, prior to self-rating 4.0 right? He wasn’t rusty. At most he would have only had several months off, not years.
 
Crazy thing is he didn't sandbag as much as he could have. He's a solid player in the first video. In the second video, he's an unstoppable machine.
 
I can’t imagine throwing a game let alone a whole match, I pretty much play every point like it’s my last one. Do the people who do this have any self respect? I would be embarrassed to do this.

Anyone play anyone anyone who was intentionally losing? I haven’t but if I was I would probably say something and ultimately end up walking off the court.
 
I can’t imagine throwing a game let alone a whole match, I pretty much play every point like it’s my last one. Do the people who do this have any self respect? I would be embarrassed to do this.

Anyone play anyone anyone who was intentionally losing? I haven’t but if I was I would probably say something and ultimately end up walking off the court.
I have. But it was in my first year playing usta so I didn’t understand what was going on. It was in 4.5 districts. Both our teams were out of it. My team threw me, a 4.0, in to give me the experience. The other guy was a 4.5 who made comments to me before our match about wanting to be a 4.0 again. I thought he was joking. He proceeds to not really run hard for shots and give me winners on balls that were a foot out.
 
Anyone play anyone anyone who was intentionally losing? I haven’t but if I was I would probably say something and ultimately end up walking off the court.
I once played against a former competitive junior who was practically blowing me off the court in warmups with his deep, heavy topspin groundstrokes.

Once the match started, those huge groundstrokes started flying into the back fence every second or third ball along with 2-3 double faults on every service game.

I finished the match but raised my suspicions of tanking with both my captain and his after the fact.
 
I once played against a former competitive junior who was practically blowing me off the court in warmups with his deep, heavy topspin groundstrokes.

Once the match started, those huge groundstrokes started flying into the back fence every second or third ball along with 2-3 double faults on every service game.

I finished the match but raised my suspicions of tanking with both my captain and his after the fact.
Fwiw I just played a guy at semi western sectionals (because the MW word is bad) who was absolutely ripping the cover off the ball in warmups, and pretty much didn’t miss. Once the match started he literally couldn’t hit two forehands in a row in. Sometimes the pressure gets to folks and some people are just warmup players. I’ll also say that was at 3.5, so a pretty different deal from 4.5 plus, but especially a young kid, I’d put it in the realm of possibility
 
A rusty 5.0 is a good 4.5. People don’t drop that far from rust. That’s why they have former college players who haven’t played in a decade self-rate at 4.5 or 5.0 depending on the division they played.

Also you realize the guy was playing open and money tournaments every year, prior to self-rating 4.0 right? He wasn’t rusty. At most he would have only had several months off, not years.
I just played a 4.5 ex D3 in this 30s, after a few sessions, his old back injury came back.
People don't wanna raise their game knowing stuff like this in the back of their heads.
Looks pretty rusty in that 1st video. My money's that it was his 1st match coming back.

@MaxTennis
4.0 in first video. 5.0 in 2nd. Got it now?

Also. Cry more about sandbagging. l o l.
Get good. Learn something. Just imagine you are UTR 14 facing Federer, except you are UTR10 facing UTR12... I wish I was UTR10 geezus
 
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I have. But it was in my first year playing usta so I didn’t understand what was going on. It was in 4.5 districts. Both our teams were out of it. My team threw me, a 4.0, in to give me the experience. The other guy was a 4.5 who made comments to me before our match about wanting to be a 4.0 again. I thought he was joking. He proceeds to not really run hard for shots and give me winners on balls that were a foot out.
Ok, if it was the other way around, I'd be upset.
Not for a guy who crushes me tho.
 
I just played a 4.5 ex D3 in this 30s, after a few sessions, his old back injury came back.
People don't wanna raise their game knowing stuff like this in the back of their heads.
Looks pretty rusty in that 1st video. My money's that it was his 1st match coming back.

@MaxTennis
4.0 in first video. 5.0 in 2nd. Got it now?

Also. Cry more about sandbagging. l o l.
Get good. Learn something. Just imagine you are UTR 14 facing Federer, except you are UTR10 facing UTR12... I wish I was UTR10 geezus

Wow. I literally lost brain cells reading this post lol. Give yourself a pat on the back :laughing:
 
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I can’t imagine throwing a game let alone a whole match, I pretty much play every point like it’s my last one. Do the people who do this have any self respect? I would be embarrassed to do this.

Anyone play anyone anyone who was intentionally losing? I haven’t but if I was I would probably say something and ultimately end up walking off the court.

I've never intentionally thrown a match, but admittedly, I do play down sometimes when playing people I know I can beat comfortably.

I'll hit more drop shots, lobs, serve and volley, and trick shots (tweeners, underhand serves, SABRs, behind the backs) than I usually do, just so I can play more tennis and also work on my touch.
 
Fwiw I just played a guy at semi western sectionals (because the MW word is bad) who was absolutely ripping the cover off the ball in warmups, and pretty much didn’t miss. Once the match started he literally couldn’t hit two forehands in a row in. Sometimes the pressure gets to folks and some people are just warmup players. I’ll also say that was at 3.5, so a pretty different deal from 4.5 plus, but especially a young kid, I’d put it in the realm of possibility
My case was a 4.5 match.
 
Ok, if it was the other way around, I'd be upset.
Not for a guy who crushes me tho.
What? If it was the 4.0 tanking against a 4.5 instead you’d be upset? But not when it’s a 4.5 tanking against a 4.0?

I just played a 4.5 ex D3 in this 30s, after a few sessions, his old back injury came back.
People don't wanna raise their game knowing stuff like this in the back of their heads.
Looks pretty rusty in that 1st video. My money's that it was his 1st match coming back.

@MaxTennis
4.0 in first video. 5.0 in 2nd. Got it now?

Also. Cry more about sandbagging. l o l.
Get good. Learn something. Just imagine you are UTR 14 facing Federer, except you are UTR10 facing UTR12... I wish I was UTR10 geezus
I did get good. That’s why I know your opinions are foolish. 4.0 to 5.0 in 5 months. Totally reasonable :rolleyes:
 
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I've never intentionally thrown a match, but admittedly, I do play down sometimes when playing people I know I can beat comfortably.

I'll hit more drop shots, lobs, serve and volley, and trick shots (tweeners, underhand serves, SABRs, behind the backs) than I usually do, just so I can play more tennis and also work on my touch.
That’s fine and a good way to practice shots you might not normally risk or have a chance to use in a very competitive match.
 
@Vox Rationis
Upset if someone tanked a match against me.
And that's what I see in the video. 4.0 vs 4.0 in 1st 4.0 vs 5.0 in 2nd
All in all, the point of this thread was a complaint. And I'm jabbing at you to stop whining. ha ha
 
@Vox Rationis
Upset if someone tanked a match against me.
And that's what I see in the video. 4.0 vs 4.0 in 1st 4.0 vs 5.0 in 2nd
All in all, the point of this thread was a complaint. And I'm jabbing at you to stop whining. ha ha
Only thing I was upset about was that I didn’t get a good match against a 4.5. It would’ve been really competitive and fun if he had tried. Paid registration fees to play essentially a fake match.
 
I’m having a hard time seeing the point in the videos. Neither guy looks like a particularly good 4.0 really. From the looks of the videos I have 3 guys on my 4.5 team that would likely beat these guys handily!
 
In video #1, what is going on with Blue Shirt's FH?
His chest is wide open at contact.
Ugly form with no power, just flailing
 
This is one of many reasons why it is stupid for USTA emphasize the goal of "winning nationals" more then the goal of "improving your rating."
I feel like USTA emphasizes playing tennis, it’s up to the players to choose what their success metering is. The mower common being improvement or winning. They offer rewards to both groups, nationals and rating bumps
 
This is one of many reasons why it is stupid for USTA emphasize the goal of "winning nationals" more then the goal of "improving your rating."
If people who plays league isn’t about winning or going national as the ultimate goal, why would anyone play or create competition?

The idea that people want to play USTA for fun is pure crap. You don’t need to pay for casual competition. You can gather a bunch of friends and play for dinner. If there’s an outcome to be national best, shouldn’t players feel competitive? At all cost?

And if you feel you can’t play at the same level, then why don’t you train harder? It’s not like there are rules which restricts your train to stay at 4.0. And just because someone trains to become a solid 4.0, all of a sudden they’re too good for it?

Please. Grab a tissue.
 
If people who plays league isn’t about winning or going national as the ultimate goal, why would anyone play or create competition?

To have competitive matches. Having a tournament is useful for generating a pretend goal to compete for, which is fun.
The idea that people want to play USTA for fun is pure crap. You don’t need to pay for casual competition. You can gather a bunch of friends and play for dinner.

The main reason I personally play USTA is because of the reliable scheduling done by somebody else. I join a team, fill out the availability, and the captain just tells me when to show up. During the summer, when there isn't a USTA league at my level, do you have any idea how many goddam emails and texts it takes to set up weekly matches with a variety of players? It feels infinite "hey can you play this sunday, wait no my kid has a soccer tournament, can you do next week, wait no cancel that..." At best I end up playing with the same person for a while once I find somebody reliable.

USTA sets up a nice structure where I get matches every sunday.

Also, at my level, USTA has the best players. I'm near the top of the pack in most of the other singles leagues I've tried joining around here, whereas in USTA I'm middle of my level at best. The players are just better.

None of this has anything to do with wanting to go to nationals or whatever. I don't even want to travel for sectionals - if I want better competition, I'd rather play up in a USTA league rather than traveling.

I think "for fun" is the ONLY reason people play USTA - if they weren't having fun, they wouldn't bother doing it, it's not like they're winning money or anything of value even if they do go to nationals or whatever!

If there’s an outcome to be national best, shouldn’t players feel competitive? At all cost?

"At all cost?" No, of course not. It's rec tennis. It's just for fun regardless of how competitive it is. Now, being pretend-competitive is certainly fun and engaging, but no, I would not say that anybody should be competitive "at all cost" in a recreational league.

Trying to be "national best" in a skill-level-based competition is sort of a silly goal anyway. "National best" 4.0 is just 4.5. "National best" 4.5 is just 5.0. But hey, it's fun to compete for a carrot and for standings, so it makes sense that USTA supports it.
 
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