Great post!
Is this what sandbagging for nationals looks like?
- Thread starter Vox Rationis
- Start date
shazbot
Semi-Pro
I hate paying the $80/month + court fees to play tennis at my local club in the winter, I sure as hell am not paying $1,500+ for hotel+flight to play in additional rec tennis.
We are all adults, and in the grand scheme of things, we suck at tennis. We are not playing for full college rides anymore or with the hopes of going pro, so who cares if people sandbag. I'm playing to have competitive matches and this is my main source of exercise. If some 45 year old loser wants to sandbag to get to rec league nationals, have at it champ. Enjoy telling your grandma you cheated to win at the equivalent of backyard cornhole.
We are all adults, and in the grand scheme of things, we suck at tennis. We are not playing for full college rides anymore or with the hopes of going pro, so who cares if people sandbag. I'm playing to have competitive matches and this is my main source of exercise. If some 45 year old loser wants to sandbag to get to rec league nationals, have at it champ. Enjoy telling your grandma you cheated to win at the equivalent of backyard cornhole.
TennisManiac
Hall of Fame
I didn't find the guy that impressive to be honest. But for what it's worth. The first match he was clearly playing down to the level of his opponent. And in the second match he picked it up. There are players like this in every league... everywhere. It's been this way since usta league has been in existence.
travlerajm
Talk Tennis Guru
Like my little bro told me when he was frustrated that he couldn’t join his 3.5 team at nationals due to a work commitment.
“This was gonna be my Super Bowl!”
JordanWinning
Rookie
Headed to 3.5 nationals this coming weekend and our battle cry is literally “This is my Super Bowl” lol
I love my life, but USTA league my little slice of excitement and organized competition I get. I’m playing for blood, glory, and a banner that will hang at a club that I’m not even a member of
The USTA makes you pay to travel to nationals?
JordanWinning
Rookie
Registration is $80, my local office is covering it for us. No idea how common or uncommon that is.
But yes, flights, hotels, all that fun stuff, is a personal expense
You don’t have to be a pro to enjoy competing and measuring yourself against peers at your level. It might not be your or my cup of tea, but many enjoy that and the feedback loop in tournaments like the nationals give them motivation to get better.
However I am not at all surprised that there are cheats who play down to win. I am one who quit similar high level rec play ( I know it is an oxymoron) for racquetball due to a lot of over the top testosterone filled folks there who would do anything, including injuring their opponents, to win . I wouldn’t be surprised if there are adults cheating in softball leagues either. That’s what humans do.
Plus who knows how some of these guys are selling themselves be it at work or in private coaching, by showing their national titles to gain some sort of cred or monetary advantage.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
This is the type of nonsense that leads people to say 5.0 in some sections is equivalent to 4.0 in SoCal
I'm also not up to date on 4.0 shenanigans. Whatever happened to the Houston and Dallas 4.0 ringer crews?
shazbot
Semi-Pro
I do play USTA and my local leagues, for the competition, I even mentioned that. I just think it’s funny grown ass adults will cheat to win in what equates to backyard kickball. Cheating to win what?
People sandbag in bowling, but in bowling if you come in 1st in a league, each man can win 5-6k (for a big money league).
And as much as I love competition (I am very competitive) I ain’t spending that kind of money to go to nationals to play against a bunch of sandbaggers
I understood what you said, but that is your decision to not spend and go.
Others who do want to spend and go have every right to call out sandbaggers.
JordanWinning
Rookie
I’ve been pondering the idea of “what’s the point of nationals,” and I think it’s the same point of playing class 1 high school basketball. Only one team wins the state championship, none of those kids are probably playing high school basketball. It takes a ton of time and commitment, and even the team in the middle of nowhere that wins zero games and takes 22 hour long bus trips still had off season practice. So why did they play? It was fun. They enjoyed their time with their teammates. It’s a memory they’ll have forever.
Maybe you’re the farmer dad who thinks his kid wasted time, maybe I’m immature or fiscally irresponsible, but either way I’m having an immense amount of fun with my friends. I’ve got great memories that I will genuinely cherish (and my wife has had to relive with me about 1000 times already lol), and to top it all off, I have the self awareness to know I’m the ultimate idiot for arguing about it’s value online lol
Maybe you’re the farmer dad who thinks his kid wasted time, maybe I’m immature or fiscally irresponsible, but either way I’m having an immense amount of fun with my friends. I’ve got great memories that I will genuinely cherish (and my wife has had to relive with me about 1000 times already lol), and to top it all off, I have the self awareness to know I’m the ultimate idiot for arguing about it’s value online lol
Purestriker
Legend
It is the pinnacle of our sport.
Purestriker
Legend
The real sand bagging is in golf and you can win way more than that for at least a few tournaments before they update your handicap.
You’re missing the biggest piece that makes the analogy wrong.
You can only get to usta nationals by cheating. So it would be like being 25 years old and entering the class 1 high school basketball tournament.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
The point of Nationals is to help ensure the ratings are in sync across the country. With no Nationals, there's no way to know if a 4.0 in Florida is at the same level as a 4.0 in Minnesota or Washington
Even though I keep seeing stuff like "4.5 in <INSERT SMALLER REGION HERE> is like 4.0 in SoCal/Texas/Florida", I found the system actually works pretty well
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Spot on.
90%+ of league players don't care about Nationals, they just want to get in some good competition during their local area season.
There is a small minority that care deeply about Nationals, and some subset of those that are willing to let's say 'go the extra mile' to make it.
Doing away with Nationals would probably end up providing an overall better experience for the majority of players, since everyone would have the same goal of a competitive regular season, instead of having a small minority engaging in monkey business in their pursuit of glory.
But the snag then is that there would be no way to normalize ratings across sections, and over time we'd find significant differences between sections.
in general i'm really looking forward to WTN to really establish itself, as i can see it being the basis for properly level matching...
too bad they don't just cooperate with UTR, but whatever...
it will eliminate the sandbaggers that only play dubs, or mixed dubs to hide their actual skill level, will include tournament play, etc...
the problem being that ntrp is trying to do too much (eg. establish a bucketing system for similar skilled players & rate their actual skills in both doubles&singles)...
but i can see the new rules for league where each level is only allowed to be a WTN (or UTR) range.
kinda ridiculous that a a player with a utr9.x+ is allowed to play ntrp4.0...
too bad they don't just cooperate with UTR, but whatever...
it will eliminate the sandbaggers that only play dubs, or mixed dubs to hide their actual skill level, will include tournament play, etc...
the problem being that ntrp is trying to do too much (eg. establish a bucketing system for similar skilled players & rate their actual skills in both doubles&singles)...
but i can see the new rules for league where each level is only allowed to be a WTN (or UTR) range.
kinda ridiculous that a a player with a utr9.x+ is allowed to play ntrp4.0...
They seem to be still around but have been out-ringered at Nationals. Texas 4.0 men finish in the top half at Nationals every year, but have not won since a Dallas team in 2015. A Houston team finished 2nd in 2019 to the Intermountain captain who then went on to threepeat, while Texas has finished 7th the last two years.
This year a Houston team made nationals and they look solid once again with a deep roster and handful of strong self-rates. Maybe they'll make some noise with the Intermountain captain moved on to 4.5, but it seems there are several strong contenders.
Vox Rationis
Professional
They’ll definitely be in the mix. Don’t be surprised if they’re suddenly better than they seemed on paper. I expect them to be the team that out performs their dynamic ratings the most.
This year finally feels way more even though. There’s only like 3 UTR 8s in the field and they look like they will definitely be challenged by the other top guys. No team seems stacked with multiple 5.0s and UTR 9s that I’ve seen.
I’m getting 2018 vibes from this year. That year was a super even playing field with Caribbean winning. Probably won’t be quite as even but at least it’s not a foregone conclusion who the finalists will be and who will win.
Out-ringered, good one
!
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Dallas has gone a little more normal except for mixed and combo, leagues. There are still aggressive captains in mens, but not really cheating pers e, not full on self rate craziness, not sure about Houston
Maybe it's a stated point, but in no way does it accomplish this. Kind of reminds me of the 4.5 captain who was interviewed on the other clip I shared, the one works in NY but captains a Kansas team and flies players in from other states to be on the team. He pretty much said it's really hard to get a team together and the beat out 3,000 other teams from acrrosss the nation to go to nationals. Um, you played like in a tiny group of 4 teams locally to get to regionals or state, whereas in Dallas there are something like 15 or more 4.5 teams. Some areas are just different and nationals doesn't magically even out the country even if the USTA thinks it can somehow do so.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
There's nothing magical about it. Sure, maybe your team only advanced because you beat a a handful of weaker teams in your region, and you are yourself weak. But then you will be exposed in Nationals and this will adjust the ratings for your team and the teams in your region accordingly
The number of competitors doesn't really say anything about the actual level of play. In any given area, there will be way more 3.0 teams than 5.0 teams. It doesn't mean the 3.0 team who beat 15 other 3.0 teams is stronger than the 5.0 team who only had to beat 3 other 5.0 teams
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FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
That's the theory, but I've seen the results. The idea that a nationals team has touched or played all the teams back home doesn't quite work in reality and the idea that those national teams playing each other give a template on how to adjust ratings back home doesn't quite play out either. There isn't a better alternative, but its not really working.
From what I've seen it is working pretty well. We've had several players move to my area who played USTA elsewhere before moving, and I always look them up on UTR or TR or wherever to see what their rating was coming in. Every time they have performed pretty much exactly as expected. If they were rated a strong 4.0 where they came from, they are going to do well in 4.0 leagues here. If they were a 3.5C where they came from, they are going to lose to most 4.0s here if they play up. I've also played in rated clinics in much bigger cities compared to where I live, and they are spot on. If I go to a 3.5 clinic during a work trip, the level feels just like the 3.5 clinics back home.
If they stopped holding Nationals and doing their adjustments based on the results, I think that kind of consistency would start melting away after a couple years.
Vox Rationis
Professional
How exactly is it not working? I genuinely don’t understand. I get how it’s not a perfect template for adjusting teams back home. But it seems to work decently well. For example a 4.5 from anywhere can pretty much go somewhere else and fit in decently. They may have to face a larger number of top players but there’s almost always a larger number of weaker players that come with it.
I’ve never heard of someone moving and going from an average player in their level to average or below average in the level below. Not without extenuating circumstances.
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FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Clinics are a tough one, "most" top players aren't in them in TN, AR, MS, TX, CA, FL, in my experience. There are some differences in mega-population centers and smaller cities like those in the south, except Atlanta and Charlotte area. Nothing worth fixing really, it is just what it is.
Nationals though, isn't holding things together and wouldn't matter if it went away, not that it should. The best 4.5-5.0 plus players in say Dallas and Atlanta aren't even that committed to USTA and hence nationals etc.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
It's not an issue that needs fixing, it's just the way it is, not a big deal. I just don't give USTA credit for masterminding some magical fix that is working, actually creating equality precisely across the nation because of nationals, it just doesn't add up.
I know some great players in the south who worked their way up to 4.5 grinding out 4.0 in their area, never played college tennis , great people, some that make post season regularly. Then in a big city in FL, CA, TX, or Atlanta you will have swarms of people in their 20s who played college tennis and never played 4.0 and are just a lot better, in that mix, those 4.5s from anywhere do enter a new category of tennis. Sure, they are still 4.5, but they aren't as sharp and battle tested as the competition. "why don't those areas win nationals every year", because these 20 year olds don't care about USTA to form or join a team that is created for nationals.
That's just a small example, plus year round tennis weather, more tournaments every week to play in and stay sharp, all that jazz. There is a difference, not to end the world, but just an interesting difference to note.
Is there a sandbagging rule that ensures 4.0s in one state are in sync with another state? Is the rule that you can bring 2 players that are NTRP one level above the stated level, and 2 players that are NTRP two levels above the stated level? And everyone finds those players, manipulates their ratings somehow, and every team has the same amount of cheating?
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
You can grind your way up to 4.5 from 4.0 in any area. Of course as a newly minted 4.5, you will be at the bottom of 4.5 in any part of the country
Former college players who enter into leagues exist everywhere in the country, and more likely than not will beat up on players who started late and grinded their way to 4.5. This is not exclusive to big cities.
In the upper tier of rec tennis (4.5+ level) everywhere you will have a good chunk of players who don't care about USTA. This again, is not exclusive to big cities.
To suggest that the only reason FL/CA/TX don't win Nationals every year is because the best players don't care about USTA does little to discredit the ratings.
The vast majority of rec tennis is intermediate to low level. Or are you also suggesting FL/CA/TX are not sending their best 3.0/3.5/4.0 players, either?
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
I have very rarely seen clinics marketed for any level beyond 4.5 anywhere. So yes, most top players aren't going to play in clinics.
But if the levels below that (i.e.: 3.0-4.0) are relatively uniform across the country, why would 4.5+ be any different?
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
I can give you lists upon lists of towns in the south that don't have any college tennis players playing USTA, they usually go to another state to join other good players in a larger tow if they want to chase that plastic trophy for some reason.
I realize any example I give and any theory I present will be and certainly can be picked apart, but yes, there is a noticeable difference in depth and quality of player at each level in certain parts of the country and nationals has very little chance of changing that nor is it a good representation of the level of players in the region each team comes from. Some of that has to do with sandbagging, some of that has to do with apathy, heck some of it even has to do with if you are living in Miami you have more fun **** to do than cheat to get a USTA team to nationals lol, unlike say Kansas or Mississippi, and even some of it has to do with if a fanatical captain lives in a city. All kinds of variables. But the connection between nationals and making ratings "better" is very likely not as impactful as the effort the USTA puts into it, but what else can they do? And again, it's not a problem ruining tennis, it's just a thing.
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FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
I , personally, would not be able to tell if someone was good or not from a clinic relative to their ratings.
There are a few 4.5 clinics advertised to everyone in Dallas, and Cali, some are off thee books invite only by club pros in other cities s because they actually wan t to hit with people instead of doing lessons everyday. Just fyi, not really interesting. They are usually at the crack of dawn on t he weekends to squeeze it in before the 9 am clinics.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Hmmm... Not sure what you are arguing for here.
If you are saying big tennis regions are poorly represented in USTA nationals because the best players don't play USTA... Well, sure but how is the USTA supposed to account for players who don't play USTA? If you play outside the league system, you are not going to have any meaningful impact on the NTRP ratings. You don't even have a rating to begin with.
You can't just say, "oh these guys don't play USTA but they are 4.5s, therefore this area has strong competition at 4.5". That doesn't really make sense
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
I'm trying not to argue and don't request any changes that USTA could make, they are already inept enough.
I'm just saying there are regional differences in tennis levels between players with the same NTRP number.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
That's true for players with the same NTRP within the same region. Someone in the top end of 4.5 will beat someone in the bottom end pretty handily
From the horse's mouth (USTA.com):
Q: Are all players in a given NTRP level equal in ability?
A. No. The NTRP system identifies general levels of ability, but an individual will be rated within those levels at 50 different hundredths of a point. For example, a 3.5 player can fall anywhere between a 3.01 and a 3.50.
A typical match result for a player with a 3.01 rating versus a 3.49 player, both of whom are 3.5s, would be 6-0, 6-0 in favor of the higher rated player.
What I think happens for people who think there are regional differences is because they compare the top end of a region with the average or even bottom end of other regions
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
No, I'm comparing the middle mostly and some top because it's easier to do a comparison between top 4.5 in a region and top 4.5 in another, MOst players and teaching pros just accept this. I get the post push back on this view on the forums, but the pros for instance who need to make recommendations on hitting partners and teams for people who move to a different tennis area, they do the same thought process out loud "Well, he's a 4.o in San Diego or LOs Angeles, he's probably a 4.5 here". That's very common.
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From your examples it seems more like you are saying that the regional differences are less about tennis levels and more about the league experience and amount of competition you need to get through to win a league, which is certainly true. A 4.0 woman in Atlanta has to beat out hundreds and hundreds of other teams for her team to make it to Sectionals. There may be hundreds of women in the 3.95-4.05 range at the top of the level, plus maybe dozens more self-rated women who should be 4.5 but have managed to avoid DQ. Whereas a 4.0 woman in a low-pop state maybe just has to win a 5-team league and they are through to Sectionals, and there are only a few women in the whole league who are near or above the 4.5 border.
But does that mean 3.95 women in Atlanta are much better than 3.95 women in a low-population states? I seriously doubt it. If that were true systematically, then it would be pretty obvious from the match scores at Sectionals and Nationals, and USTA would adjust. Of course it's not perfect and USTA has some failures, but I think their overall national standardization effort is succeeding.
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
I am not saying that, but I agree with your description , some places are more difficult to navigate to nationals if you base it on number of matches to be played, sometimes even allows for easier sandbagging if the path is less congested.
But, no, I am simply saying same number, different skill level based on geography. A whole .5 difference for everyone, most likely not, but a noticeable difference yes.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Interesting, which specific places have 4.0s who would be 4.5s in SoCal?
FuzzyYellowBalls
Legend
Too much multitasking....apologies, I edited it.
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
I disagree with quantity of opponents necessarily translating into quality of opponents.
In any area you're probably going to have way more 3.0 teams than 5.0 teams. That doesn't mean the 3.0 teams are better than the 5.0 teams.
You could have 15 teams at 4.0 that are mostly terrible and one stacked team built for nationals. Just like you can have five equally strong teams.
badmice2
Professional
In my mind this is the best case example of why most people often feel sandbagging exists. I can strongly agree that in my local flight our team run into this a whole lot - where every team has to come through us to make district/sectional. This is not to suggest we have sandbagging players on our team; in fact we have had the same group of players together for the last 5-7 years, some 10-15 years. What IT IS suggesting is the talent level in our local flight is weak.
Truth be told normalized rated playing doesn’t really exist until playoff and beyond. True playing level display its color at regional level playoffs. Hence all these talk about people sandbagging is absurd, you’re just trying to move the goal post - you think you’re 4.0 until you play and get beat up by a real 4.0. Does that mean you’re 4.0? Sure, you scored a couple of games and demonstrate you can hang, but you also try and make yourself feel better by calling them 4.5.
Sandbagging doesn't exist!?
jm1980
Talk Tennis Guru
Yes, but ultimately self rates have to play computer rated players in the system.
Also, that's where Nationals come into play. It allows the USTA to make adjustments to better synchronize the ratings across the country. With no Nationals then the ratings could slowly drift between regions and there would be no way to know
Ideally you would have a lot more opportunities to match up players across sections throughout the year, which would lead to more accurate ratings. But for practical reasons this is not possible at a large scale.
Yeah, the many people who tell me that players are better in CA than TX are crazy, I guess. And there's no way to recruit new self rated players next season, that's impossible. And there's no way to tank games and matches to fool the computer. And there's no way to appeal to USTA to change ratings. Yeah, nationals synchronizes because every single tennis player in the nation plays in nationals. Oh, and everyone's honest in USTA.
GrassCourtFan
Legend
My personal experience is that the ratings were pretty well matched between NorCal and Missouri Valley. I moved from one to the other and stayed basically the same relative to my rating level. I was a midrange 4.5 in norcal, midrange 4.5 in missouri valley, feels about the same to me.
So, perhaps it CAN happen, but I don't think it has. And there's a mechanism for the USTA to prevent it - using Nationals to calibrate the ratings across areas.
