Is this what sandbagging for nationals looks like?

badmice2 said:
In my mind this is the best case example of why most people often feel sandbagging exists. I can strongly agree that in my local flight our team run into this a whole lot - where every team has to come through us to make district/sectional. This is not to suggest we have sandbagging players on our team; in fact we have had the same group of players together for the last 5-7 years, some 10-15 years. What IT IS suggesting is the talent level in our local flight is weak.

Truth be told normalized rated playing doesn’t really exist until playoff and beyond. True playing level display its color at regional level playoffs. Hence all these talk about people sandbagging is absurd, you’re just trying to move the goal post - you think you’re 4.0 until you play and get beat up by a real 4.0. Does that mean you’re 4.0? Sure, you scored a couple of games and demonstrate you can hang, but you also try and make yourself feel better by calling them 4.5.
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While I empathize with your team locally being called sandbaggers when you are in fact just probably good players who make each other better by playing each other and might have some good doubles chemistry, the sandbagging I like to remark on in the forums, not complain about, bercause I've played and beaten some self rates in playoffs and really enjoyed the experience, the sandbagging that is fun to discuss is really people who are self-rating 2-3 levels below. There are teams from say the covid era that played 4.0 and 4.5 as self rates in the same season going undefeated in both , going to sectionals in both.

That's real sandbagging.
 
jm1980 said:
Yes, but ultimately self rates have to play computer rated players in the system.

Also, that's where Nationals come into play. It allows the USTA to make adjustments to better synchronize the ratings across the country. With no Nationals then the ratings could slowly drift between regions and there would be no way to know

Ideally you would have a lot more opportunities to match up players across sections throughout the year, which would lead to more accurate ratings. But for practical reasons this is not possible at a large scale.
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Ironically though, without nationals fewer people would sandbag or self-rate, I believe captains have the most influence in this activity, the hobby captains might tone it down a bit, maybe. Not suggesting this happen, just interesting to think about.
 
jm1980 said:
I disagree with quantity of opponents necessarily translating into quality of opponents.

In any area you're probably going to have way more 3.0 teams than 5.0 teams. That doesn't mean the 3.0 teams are better than the 5.0 teams.

You could have 15 teams at 4.0 that are mostly terrible and one stacked team built for nationals. Just like you can have five equally strong teams.
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if you want a small example, Dallas usually has 30-40 4.0 teams, just Dallas and not Fort Worth. There should be 10-12 teams that could not embarrass themselves at nationals amongst the Dallas teams. Maybe 3 out of 10 4.5 teams as well.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
Ironically though, without nationals fewer people would sandbag or self-rate, I believe captains have the most influence in this activity, the hobby captains might tone it down a bit, maybe. Not suggesting this happen, just interesting to think about.
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Absolutely without Nationals (and to a lesser degree Sectionals etc) there would be less egregious sandbagging.

Look at it from the perspective of a player playing down one (or two) levels: It's no fun playing significantly weaker competition week in week out. These players are generally induced into playing by a captain with dreams of postseason glory.

However there will always be 'minor' sandbagging, because generally players prefer competitive matches which they are more likely to win versus competitive matches where they end up losers.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
the pros for instance who need to make recommendations on hitting partners and teams for people who move to a different tennis area, they do the same thought process out loud "Well, he's a 4.o in San Diego or LOs Angeles, he's probably a 4.5 here". That's very common.
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It may be a common opinion, but that doesn't mean it's true. All signs point to it being a myth that persists only because of anecdotal confirmation bias (a powerful force that no one is immune to). The results do not support it.

There are examples of very good SoCal teams, but they are not persistently at the top. If a 4.0C from SoCal really tended be equivalent to 4.5C players elsewhere, then they would be winning easily against other 4.0Cs at Nationals year after year. The sandbagging self-rated 4.0s from SoCal would also be better than the sandbagging self-rated 4.0s from elsewhere, because it would be easier to avoid getting DQ'ed at Sectionals with stronger 4.0C opponents. The skewed scale would also filter up and down to the other levels, and those SoCal teams would consistently dominate Nationals as well, but they don't.
 
This looks like what I would expect 4.0 nationals play to look like based on my experiences.
 
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TennisOTM said:
It may be a common opinion, but that doesn't mean it's true. All signs point to it being a myth that persists only because of anecdotal confirmation bias (a powerful force that no one is immune to). The results do not support it.

There are examples of very good SoCal teams, but they are not persistently at the top. If a 4.0C from SoCal really tended be equivalent to 4.5C players elsewhere, then they would be winning easily against other 4.0Cs at Nationals year after year. The sandbagging self-rated 4.0s from SoCal would also be better than the sandbagging self-rated 4.0s from elsewhere, because it would be easier to avoid getting DQ'ed at Sectionals with stronger 4.0C opponents. The skewed scale would also filter up and down to the other levels, and those SoCal teams would consistently dominate Nationals as well, but they don't.
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Sure, any info can be picked apart like I said, but I'll just trust those who have no skin in the game, not you perse, but the largest pushback I get is on the forums from people not in TX, CA, or FL or Atlanta, usually. No reason to look through my posts, but team USTA tennis isn't a great place to compare regions,
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
While I empathize with your team locally being called sandbaggers when you are in fact just probably good players who make each other better by playing each other and might have some good doubles chemistry, the sandbagging I like to remark on in the forums, not complain about, bercause I've played and beaten some self rates in playoffs and really enjoyed the experience, the sandbagging that is fun to discuss is really people who are self-rating 2-3 levels below. There are teams from say the covid era that played 4.0 and 4.5 as self rates in the same season going undefeated in both , going to sectionals in both.

That's real sandbagging.
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Agreed.

There’s a local captain in the SF area getting banded from captaining because of “excessive self rated players” on his team. The captains 3.5 teams consistently makes nationals due to his roster having overwhelming self rated players. A “coalition” group of local captains filed a complaint against him and got him banded from captaining.
 
badmice2 said:
Agreed.

There’s a local captain in the SF area getting banded from captaining because of “excessive self rated players” on his team. The captains 3.5 teams consistently makes nationals due to his roster having overwhelming self rated players. A “coalition” group of local captains filed a complaint against him and got him banded from captaining.
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That's impressive that they took action, seems to be a rare thing.
 
schmke said:
I believe it took many many many years and several tries if it is the captain I'm aware of.
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I know of a captain who was banned (different section and level); he just got someone else to 'captain' officially while still running things from behind the scenes.
 
drivophd said:
Even then it was a temporary ban that has long-since lapsed. I heard he’s stopped captaining permanently out of apathy toward USTA after how everything played out.
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In one case, perhaps this one, the section wanted a more severe ban, but National stepped in and limited the period of time as I guess there is some rule that sections can issue bans only of a certain length.
 
How do you beat a sandbagger? By sandbagging bigger. How do they respond? By sandbagging even bigger. By the time you get to nationals you're watching Carlos Alcaraz in a disguise. How do they respond? By bringing Joker in a disguise. How do they respond? By giving Carlitos extra doses of steroids.

But they all play down as much as possible to keep their rating as low as possible so they can sandbag again. People who play USTA baffle my mind. But I've had many malignant narcissists in my life, my family, and close relationships. They're all cheaters. Their behaviors always baffle people's minds.
 
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Chalkdust said:
I know of a captain who was banned (different section and level); he just got someone else to 'captain' officially while still running things from behind the scenes.
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The guy I was referring to was band from all league activities period - no playing, not captain, it was supposed to be a lifetime band. Norcal eventually lowered the sentencing to 6 months no league play but 5 years no captaining.
 
badmice2 said:
The guy I was referring to was band from all league activities period - no playing, not captain, it was supposed to be a lifetime band. Norcal eventually lowered the sentencing to 6 months no league play but 5 years no captaining.
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I hear ya, the guy I was thinking about was similarly banned, but he was one of those non-playing 'professional' captains, so it didn't bother him that he could not officially participate. He just had someone else sign up as captain but he was still doing all actual captaining behind the scenes, with the same shenanigans. Everyone knew what was going on but since he was not 'officially' involved, there was nothing to be done about it.
 
jimmy8 said:
How do you beat a sandbagger? By sandbagging bigger. How do they respond? By sandbagging even bigger. By the time you get to nationals you're watching Carlos Alcaraz in a disguise. How do they respond? By bringing Joker in a disguise. How do they respond? By giving Carlitos extra doses of steroids.

But they all play down as much as possible to keep their rating as low as possible so they can sandbag again. People who play USTA baffle my mind. But I've had many malignant narcissists in my life, my family, and close relationships. They're all cheaters. Their behaviors always baffle people's minds.
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This is true... at Nationals, not necessarily in your league.

Basically, by the time you get to Nationals the teams are either sandbaggers or better than sandbaggers (unless there is absolutely no sandbagging going on, anyone believe that?).
 
LuckyR said:
This is true... at Nationals, not necessarily in your league.

Basically, by the time you get to Nationals the teams are either sandbaggers or better than sandbaggers (unless there is absolutely no sandbagging going on, anyone believe that?).
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The question then becomes can you really even call it sandbagging at a national level if everyone is doing it?
 
badmice2 said:
The guy I was referring to was band from all league activities period - no playing, not captain, it was supposed to be a lifetime band. Norcal eventually lowered the sentencing to 6 months no league play but 5 years no captaining.
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Was this guy’s initials GR?
 
bobbybob14 said:
The question then becomes can you really even call it sandbagging at a national level if everyone is doing it?
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That’s been my point. Sectional is really the start for standards in rating IMO. Local level play varies so much that anyone with a serve and a forehand can claim a rating level. It’s an absolute joke folks get waxed and claim sandbagging as an excuse. As a ref once said to someone I played against - who happened to stop a match to complaint I was sandbagging - maybe you’re not 4.0?!?
 
schmke said:
In one case, perhaps this one, the section wanted a more severe ban, but National stepped in and limited the period of time as I guess there is some rule that sections can issue bans only of a certain length.
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Haha, that smells of a power struggle between nationals goobers and sectionals people. Another strange slice of USTA .
 
MaxTennis said:
Was this guy’s initials GR?
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I don't really care who it is and you're a cool guy based on all the posts and contributions, but I often wonder why there is a hush hush attitude on the forums about naming these captains? I went on the facebook page of Fowkes USTA section and asked about the seminar on how to cheat the system etc., there's no real moral obligation to not name them.
 
FuzzyYellowBalls said:
I don't really care who it is and you're a cool guy based on all the posts and contributions, but I often wonder why there is a hush hush attitude on the forums about naming these captains? I went on the facebook page of Fowkes USTA section and asked about the seminar on how to cheat the system etc., there's no real moral obligation to not name them.
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Wanted to respect people's privacy.
 
badmice2 said:
Yup.
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I have a funny anecdote to share :laughing:. I was playing 4.5 for an SF team in 2018 and played against one of GR's Bay Club SF teams. In that match, I hit a tweener lob winner on his guys, then looked up to him and nodded with a smirk like Djokovic, "Yeah, I just did that" sort of thing.

My partner and I won like 6-3, 6-2, and after the match, he came up to me and said I'm very talented ;). I think if I lived in SF, he would've tried to recruit me because he ended up recruiting one of the guys on my team for his Bay Club Ross Valley team.
 
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MaxTennis said:
I have a funny anecdote to share :laughing:. I was playing 4.5 for an SF team in 2018 and played against one of GR's Bay Club SF teams. In that match, I hit a tweener lob winner on his guys, then looked up to him with a smirk like Djokovic, "Yeah, I just did that" sort of thing.

My partner and I won like 6-3, 6-2, and after the match, he came up to me and said I'm very talented ;). I think if I lived in SF, he would've tried to recruit me because he ended up recruiting one of the guys on my team for his Bay Club Ross Valley team.
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I’ll give it to him in bending the rules for a long time. In fact I feel like people got mad because he did it better than others. I know for a fact that the same captains at Bay Club tried to institute rules wt bay club to prevent his recruiting tactics, hence you all have all these weird policies around league play. It wasn’t a clear label in the books that he wasn’t allow to pull off what he did.

The guy once emailed me trying to get dirt/pointers about teams I had played during sectional. He ended his email by saying “it’ll be good for you”.

I know another legend, initial WW, who used to do the same as GR in bending rules and finding loop holes which made USTA go AWOL. To my knowledge there were several league rule change made because of him.
 
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badmice2 said:
I’ll give it to him in bending the rules for a long time. In fact I feel like people got mad because he did it better than others. I know for a fact that the same captains at Bay Club tried to institute rules wt bay club to prevent his recruiting tactics, hence you all have all these weird policies around league play. It wasn’t a clear label in the books that he wasn’t allow to pull off what he did.

The guy once emailed me trying to get dirt/pointers about teams I had played during sectional. He ended his email by saying “it’ll be good for you”.

I know another legend, initial WW, who used to do the same as GR in bending rules and finding loop holes which made USTA go AWOL. To my knowledge there were several league rule change made because of him.
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Pretty pathetic guy to go those extremes and his lack of ethics for a meaningless trophy.
 
Pass750 said:
Pretty pathetic guy to go those extremes and his lack of ethics for a meaningless trophy.
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Only if there is such a thing as ethics to go by. Even then he didn’t do anything wrong and played by the book.

What he did is no different than people making bad line calls or attempt to call foot fault. It’s the ones that’s taking to the extreme needing to label that’s the real problem…

Name a captain who will reject a S rated player on their team that can ball beyond their rating…we can talk about ethics then.
 
badmice2 said:
Only if there is such a thing as ethics to go by. Even then he didn’t do anything wrong and played by the book.

What he did is no different than people making bad line calls or attempt to call foot fault. It’s the ones that’s taking to the extreme needing to label that’s the real problem…

Name a captain who will reject a S rated player on their team that can ball beyond their rating…we can talk about ethics then.
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Tell me you are on his team or a similar one without telling me!
 

☝️I’m a sandbagger…or maybe I’m not; depends on who you ask. Though going to sectional is a regular thing.

And no. Playing for that team requires me to sandbag. It also means I have to waste expensive CA gas to sandbag..sounds like a bad deal.
 
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