Is USTA League 40+ going back to 5 courts?

schmke

Legend
Ever since 40+ went to a 4-court format several years ago, many have wanted to go back to 5-courts, and recently there has been speculation it may happen in 2024, but today for the first time I saw something from the USTA seemingly confirming it will happen.

I have not seen 2024 regulations yet, draft or otherwise, which is a bit odd, normally they are floating around by now as 2024 ESLs have started or are starting soon. But I had forwarded to me an e-mail from a Missouri Valley district that has 40+ as an ESL starting play in September, and it says they are using a 1 singles / 4 doubles format, and it is being done to match the National format for 2024.

If this is to be believed, 5-courts is back for 2024, but it will be 1 singles / 4 doubles instead of the prior 5-court format of 2 singles / 3 doubles. I think most will prefer that to 4-courts, but it still leaves singles players over 40 with limited singles opportunities and means teams will have to have 9 players per match perhaps meaning larger rosters. But it gets rid of 2-2 ties and creates more playing opportunities.

Note, sections are not obligated to follow National's lead on the 5-court format. As some have done in the past, they can use a different format in local league play.

What do you think?

More on my blog.
 
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I was told the same thing from local officials about nationals going to 1/4 in 2024. Our local league will stay at 1/3 due to court space.
 

schmke

Legend
I was told the same thing from local officials about nationals going to 1/4 in 2024. Our local league will stay at 1/3 due to court space.
I checked with my LC, and that is the same thing here. Our 40+ is Jan-Mar which is our busiest time for indoor courts and apparently our facilities don't want to give up a 5th court for league play.
 

schmke

Legend
And I love the national change. 2-2 wins and losses was the primary complaint I got about 40+. People can’t stand that their 3 set win was the reason their team lost a match.
Well, I'm sure part of it was come Nationals, a 2-2 win is a really undesirable way to decide a match that determines semi-finalists, a finalist, or a National champ. Why they would have thought it was fine when they instituted the change, I don't know.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
I hope that this change is true. All it took was 4 years of funky results, dissatisfaction, and innumerable complaints for the USTA to right this wrong.

I prefer the 3 dubs and 2 singles format, but I'm totally okay with 1 singles and 4 dubs as an alternative. Just so long as we have 5 lines and decisive team scores again.
 

schmke

Legend
I hope that this change is true. All it took was 4 years of funky results, dissatisfaction, and innumerable complaints for the USTA to right this wrong.

I prefer the 3 dubs and 2 singles format, but I'm totally okay with 1 singles and 4 dubs as an alternative. Just so long as we have 5 lines and decisive team scores again.
I don't know about your area of PNW, but I'm told in mine we are sticking with 4 courts for the regular season due to court availability :(
 

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
Well, I'm sure part of it was come Nationals, a 2-2 win is a really undesirable way to decide a match that determines semi-finalists, a finalist, or a National champ. Why they would have thought it was fine when they instituted the change, I don't know.
Yeah, when the Middle States 4.0 team won nationals, they won the semis by virtue of losing two fewer games than the opponent. I don't think anyone needs an explanation as to how stupid it is that that's what decided such a critical match (don't get me wrong, I'm glad Middle States won, especially against a Fowkes Intermountain team, but it was still ridiculous that this level of tiebreaker was needed...). If leagues want to have 4 courts and PPP during the regular season due to either player or court availability issues, fine, let them do that, but once you get to a playoff setting where PPP isn't being used and a winner is required for every match (and especially in a knockout round like national semis), it is imperative to have a format with an odd number of courts. This has been a self-inflicted disaster on the part of the USTA since they implemented the 4 court format.
 

Jack the Hack

Hall of Fame
I don't know about your area of PNW, but I'm told in mine we are sticking with 4 courts for the regular season due to court availability :(

That would be upsetting if that's the case here in the Northern Oregon district. I could see our Section officials choosing to apply one format for the whole PNW region to keep it consistent. On the other hand, I believe you play No-Ad in Northwest and Southwest Washington, but regular scoring is used everywhere else, so the districts are given some leeway at the discretion of local coordinators.

In terms of court availability, one new thing that happened for the first time this year was match time limits at certain clubs in Northern Oregon. I have heard many, many complaints about this. I heard about one recent match where there was a 90 minute time limit and none of the 4 lines in a 40 and over match finished. Therefore, the whole thing came down to games and the result unfortunately had direct implications on playoff eligibility. Needless to say, there was a lot of upset people with that circumstance.
 

schmke

Legend
That would be upsetting if that's the case here in the Northern Oregon district. I could see our Section officials choosing to apply one format for the whole PNW region to keep it consistent. On the other hand, I believe you play No-Ad in Northwest and Southwest Washington, but regular scoring is used everywhere else, so the districts are given some leeway at the discretion of local coordinators.

In terms of court availability, one new thing that happened for the first time this year was match time limits at certain clubs in Northern Oregon. I have heard many, many complaints about this. I heard about one recent match where there was a 90 minute time limit and none of the 4 lines in a 40 and over match finished. Therefore, the whole thing came down to games and the result unfortunately had direct implications on playoff eligibility. Needless to say, there was a lot of upset people with that circumstance.
I don't know that it is final, but I'm guessing local areas as always can use whatever format they like (within reason), but Sectionals will be four courts. My LC said she would be informing captains that would be the case but to plan accordingly with rosters as Nationals would require 5 courts / 9 players.

Most of our facilities have timed court times, but other than during COVID, we haven't actually had timed matches. Teams would make sure they had overflow courts or finish a match later if time ran out and a match was kicked off a court.
 

schmke

Legend
It should be 2 singles and 3 doubles.
I agree. The problem now is that we had 4 years of 1S/3D which took away playing opportunities for singles players, which has probably led to fewer players being adept at singles. Which means whatever real or perceived dearth of singles players is probably worse now than when they moved to 4 courts.
 

time_fly

Hall of Fame
In our area they even dropped the 2nd singles court from the age 18+ regular season matches (still required for districts / sectionals), arguing that even in those leagues the average player was 50+ years old and didn't want to play singles. I suppose 1/4 is a reasonable compromise. Our club can probably field another doubles pair per match no problem, but some smaller clubs and teams might struggle to get 9 players per match.

Since we play indoors in New England, court availability will also be an issue at smaller clubs if we go back to 5 courts per match.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
In our area they even dropped the 2nd singles court from the age 18+ regular season matches (still required for districts / sectionals), arguing that even in those leagues the average player was 50+ years old and didn't want to play singles. I suppose 1/4 is a reasonable compromise. Our club can probably field another doubles pair per match no problem, but some smaller clubs and teams might struggle to get 9 players per match.

Since we play indoors in New England, court availability will also be an issue at smaller clubs if we go back to 5 courts per match.
The average age of 18+ leagues is 50 in your area? Oh wow. I’m glad I live where I live.
 

Rattler

Hall of Fame
I was told the same thing from local officials about nationals going to 1/4 in 2024. Our local league will stay at 1/3 due to court space.
Hmmm. Court space? CATA plays 5 courts per match-up for 18 and over right? How does court space factor in on 40+?
 
Hmmm. Court space? CATA plays 5 courts per match-up for 18 and over right? How does court space factor in on 40+?
I’m with you on this. Just told too many facilities were requiring staggered starts and many didn’t want to give up 5 courts again. I really don’t get it either since 18+ is 5 courts and they make it work.
 

schmke

Legend
I’m with you on this. Just told too many facilities were requiring staggered starts and many didn’t want to give up 5 courts again. I really don’t get it either since 18+ is 5 courts and they make it work.
The mistake was going to 4 courts originally as it gave facilities the chance to establish that as the norm for 40+ and begin to use the 5th court for other purposes. It is very hard to go back and now ask facilities to give up the 5th court.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
In my section, the 18+ and 40+ usta leagues are 90% the same players. I just call it summer league and fall league and don’t worry about which one is 18 and which one is 40.
That would be a terrible experience. You don’t get to interact with younger people. Don’t get to hit full topspin strokes or deal with heavy kick serves. I bet districts or sectionals is tough and you’re not used to playing high levels of tennis. We run into guys at 18+ districts all the time who think our guys are sandbagging because “we went to 40+ sectionals and shouldn’t be getting bageled like this”. When really it just that they haven’t seen real topspin and guys that can run in their regular league.
 

travlerajm

Talk Tennis Guru
That would be a terrible experience. You don’t get to interact with younger people. Don’t get to hit full topspin strokes or deal with heavy kick serves. I bet districts or sectionals is tough and you’re not used to playing high levels of tennis. We run into guys at 18+ districts all the time who think our guys are sandbagging because “we went to 40+ sectionals and shouldn’t be getting bageled like this”. When really it just that they haven’t seen real topspin and guys that can run in their regular league.
Since it’s doubles, the younger players aren’t necessarily any better than the older ones, as experience tends to trump youth. Ntrp is same, but the younger players are more likely to be overrated as doubles players relative to their singles level.

I wouldn’t call it a terrible experience, but it feels pointless to have the two different age categories.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
Since it’s doubles, the younger players aren’t necessarily any better than the older ones, as experience tends to trump youth. Ntrp is same, but the younger players are more likely to be overrated as doubles players relative to their singles level.

I wouldn’t call it a terrible experience, but it feels pointless to have the two different age categories.
That makes sense
 

ChaelAZ

G.O.A.T.
No reason for it to be 4 courts. We still have plenty of guys wanting to play singles. There was never a shortage.
 

TennisOTM

Professional
I was surprised that my area resisted going back to five courts this year. The local coordinators wanted to make the change to 1S/4D a year early but relented to backlash. I don't know if we will follow National next year. I'll be curious to see if there are empty courts next to our matches this summer, in which case I'll call BS on any court-space complaints from the facilities.
 

KaiserW

Hall of Fame
We never went to 1/3 have stayed with 2/3 for 40 over. Next year our captain said we will switch to 1/4 to follow national rule.

I prefer 2/3 since we have 3 strong singles players and many teams don’t have that.
 

Moon Shooter

Hall of Fame
The tie breaks seem fine for head to head matches. I kind of like that every game and set can matter. But it seems to be a problem in events with multiple teams being compared. I’m not sure if they can do a better job.

Adding an extra doubles court might be a challenge for my area. Our 18 and over 3.5 team had to default some courts and another 18 and over team folded this year. We play quite a few 3.0 players in our 3.5 leagues. But we picked up a new 18 and over team. I suspect that since millennials are hitting 40 usta expects this to grow. That would seem a reasonable expectation.
 

schmke

Legend
The tie breaks seem fine for head to head matches. I kind of like that every game and set can matter. But it seems to be a problem in events with multiple teams being compared. I’m not sure if they can do a better job.

Adding an extra doubles court might be a challenge for my area. Our 18 and over 3.5 team had to default some courts and another 18 and over team folded this year. We play quite a few 3.0 players in our 3.5 leagues. But we picked up a new 18 and over team. I suspect that since millennials are hitting 40 usta expects this to grow. That would seem a reasonable expectation.
Reasonable? Yes and no.

My analysis in the past has shown the roughly 3% per year decrease overall was not across all divisions. 18+ decreased the most, 40+ was close to flat, and 55+ showed growth. This is all in line with the hypothesis that the USTA League membership is growing older and they aren't replacing those that age out with the same number of younger players, but as players get older they can continue to play 40+ or become eligible for 55+.

Does that mean 40+ is or will actually grow vs remain somewhat flat? Hard to say, but given 55+ is what was growing, I'd think that is an indication the age group with the glut of members has already gone past 40+.
 

Moon Shooter

Hall of Fame
I think people just don’t play usta until they are older. About age 40 seems to be when participation starts to really pick up. And the other leagues may be going through a decline as the baby boomers retire. I think the oldest gen x would be about 57 now so the 55 and over league would still be mostly baby boomers.

I guess we will see.
 

TennisOTM

Professional
We never went to 1/3 have stayed with 2/3 for 40 over. Next year our captain said we will switch to 1/4 to follow national rule.

I prefer 2/3 since we have 3 strong singles players and many teams don’t have that.
Curious if you advanced far enough in the playoffs that you had to switch to 1/3 (e.g. at Sectionals), in which case your team's singles depth no longer helps you as much? This would be the downside to not following the National format, though maybe that's a minor con that is outweighed by the pros.
 

TennisOTM

Professional
I'll be curious to see if there are empty courts next to our matches this summer, in which case I'll call BS on any court-space complaints from the facilities.
One match down, and there were plenty of courts available at the facility to host 5 lines. We did struggle to fill our 7-man lineup however - finding 9 players would have been rough. We are going to need very large rosters under the 1/4 format if we continue having 40+ league during summer vacation season.
 

Moveforwardalways

Hall of Fame
It is very difficult for people to consistently play rec tennis leagues in their late 20’s through late 30’s. I am not sure this will ever change. New mortgages, small children, demanding jobs, etc. I do not think this is a lack of tennis interest per se, but just a fact of life. Participation in almost every hobby activity drops during this phase of life and picks back up at 40 when kids are older and jobs are paying more. This is why people commonly report that their 40’s is a fun decade of life.

I wonder how tennis participation looks in other countries? Is this really a USTA problem or does the LTA, Australian association, other European countries have the same issue?
 
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KaiserW

Hall of Fame
Curious if you advanced far enough in the playoffs that you had to switch to 1/3 (e.g. at Sectionals), in which case your team's singles depth no longer helps you as much? This would be the downside to not following the National format, though maybe that's a minor con that is outweighed by the pros.

Yes we made it to sectionals last year. I don’t think it made much difference as we could give more rest to singles guys.
 

jdawgg

Semi-Pro
That would be a terrible experience. You don’t get to interact with younger people. Don’t get to hit full topspin strokes or deal with heavy kick serves. I bet districts or sectionals is tough and you’re not used to playing high levels of tennis. We run into guys at 18+ districts all the time who think our guys are sandbagging because “we went to 40+ sectionals and shouldn’t be getting bageled like this”. When really it just that they haven’t seen real topspin and guys that can run in their regular league.

Im assuming trav is referring to the Seattle area. There are a lot of 40+ who play 18+ for sure at 4.5. 90% is a number that was pulled out of thin air. Seattle area usually wins PNW sectionals at 4.5 so it’s not a problem. The two teams that made sectionals this year don’t have any 40+ players I’m aware of.
 

LOBALOT

Legend
We have a lot in our area as well. I would say 80%+ of the players on 18+ teams also play 40+.

On my teams I have 3 guys on 18+ that don't "qualify" for 40+ so whenever they say they can play a match I always play them knowing they have no other options other than playing up. Frankly, the remainder of lineup is then guys from my 40+ team and that team is stacked so I use the 18+ to balance play in that if they are not playing 40+ this week I try to get them in the lineup in 18+ and that keeps the team dynamics in good shape.

Now for those of you that I compete against don't go looking at my 18+ lineup and try to figure out who I am playing later in the week at 40+!
 
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TennisOTM

Professional
The Intermountain section just announced that they will use a 4-court format (1 singles, 3 doubles) for the Sectional championship in 2024. The winner will then have to switich to playing 5 courts (1 singles, 4 doubles), which will be the format used at Nationals. Here's a link to the announcement:


Interesting. Would love to hear more about the "feedback" they mentioned that led to this decision.
 
The Intermountain section just announced that they will use a 4-court format (1 singles, 3 doubles) for the Sectional championship in 2024. The winner will then have to switich to playing 5 courts (1 singles, 4 doubles), which will be the format used at Nationals. Here's a link to the announcement:


Interesting. Would love to hear more about the "feedback" they mentioned that led to this decision.

I wasn't privy to all the discussion in my district within Intermountain but I know some of the feedback given to the Section was around court availability (40+ plays before 18+ and the weather is spotty and there is limited indoor availability for moving sites or re-scheduling), the fact that team size would likely have to grow in order to have enough people which could make local league size actually get smaller bc some teams might combine (people here like having more matches in a season). In general, all of my friends hated the 4 court, 1 singles 3 doubles format and just wanted the 2+3 format back. That and returning 40+ 4.5 to a "Plus" league so 5.0s could play. I'll have to ask the District Director about it when I see him for doubles this weekend.
 

schmke

Legend
Court availability is definitely one of the factors, especially in areas that play 40+ early in the year and have to play indoors due to weather. I was told that was one reason our section is also sticking with 4 courts.

Now, if it is just IM Sectionals using 4 courts, that rationale doesn't make as much sense. When and where are Sectionals? They aren't indoors are they?
 
Court availability is definitely one of the factors, especially in areas that play 40+ early in the year and have to play indoors due to weather. I was told that was one reason our section is also sticking with 4 courts.

Now, if it is just IM Sectionals using 4 courts, that rationale doesn't make as much sense. When and where are Sectionals? They aren't indoors are they?

This year in IM, 40+ Sectionals were in Denver in early September. I wasn't there (not old enough) but assume it was primarily outdoor with some of the sites likely having indoor backup.

In general in my district, especially at 4.5 & 5.0, one of the biggest challenges at sectionals is just having enough available team members to play. My 5.0 team had 11 guys and we took 5 to Sectionals. Gassed after day 1. Especially since Intermountain also removed the ability to play across levels at Sectionals this year. Our team was partially 4.5s who had to commit to the 4.5 team that went.
 

TennisOTM

Professional
I don't think court availability is the issue here, we play 40+ league in the summer. It's possible we gave feedback on the roster size problem - tough to get enough players to fill 9 spots every week, with summer vacations. I don't really see why have fewer teams with bigger rosters is that big a deal, though.

Imagine if every section decides to play 4 courts and Nationals is the only event that uses the extra doubles line.
 

TennisOTM

Professional
I started browsing around 2024 leagues on Tennislink, checking the Adult 40+ leagues in different cities to see what format they have listed.

Most of them do not seem to be using the new Nationals format. Only examples of the 1S / 4D format I've found so far are in Atlanta, Minneapolis/St. Paul, and New York. Many, many others are still listing 1S / 3D as the format, and a few say 2S / 3D.
 

schmke

Legend
I think facilities prefer 4 courts, doesn't use up as many so they can use for other programming.
 

romano

New User
Ever since 40+ went to a 4-court format several years ago, many have wanted to go back to 5-courts, and recently there has been speculation it may happen in 2024, but today for the first time I saw something from the USTA seemingly confirming it will happen.

I have not seen 2024 regulations yet, draft or otherwise, which is a bit odd, normally they are floating around by now as 2024 ESLs have started or are starting soon. But I had forwarded to me an e-mail from a Missouri Valley district that has 40+ as an ESL starting play in September, and it says they are using a 1 singles / 4 doubles format, and it is being done to match the National format for 2024.

If this is to be believed, 5-courts is back for 2024, but it will be 1 singles / 4 doubles instead of the prior 5-court format of 2 singles / 3 doubles. I think most will prefer that to 4-courts, but it still leaves singles players over 40 with limited singles opportunities and means teams will have to have 9 players per match perhaps meaning larger rosters. But it gets rid of 2-2 ties and creates more playing opportunities.

Note, sections are not obligated to follow National's lead on the 5-court format. As some have done in the past, they can use a different format in local league play.

What do you think?

More on my blog.
NorCal will remain 4 lines for 2024, 1 Single, 3 Doubles, with D1 counting for 2 points (all other lines 1). Standings based on total points, not wins and losses. However, this is the disclaimer posted on every team home pages:

*While the NorCal Adult 40 & Over League Format in the 3.0, 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5 levels is 4 lines-One Line of Singles and Three Lines of Doubles, if your team progresses to Nationals at the 3.0, 3.5, 4.0 or 4.5 levels, the match format will be 5 lines-ONE line of singles and FOUR lines of doubles.
 
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