Is Venus Williams serious?

Will Venus continue to make noise?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0
  • Poll closed .

Babblelot

Professional
The WTA is there for the taking. Venus has a better shot at regaining her #1 ranking than most Top 10 players at this point.
 

Shyyre

Rookie
she looked great at wimbledon, not just technically, but you could see it in her eyes as well (not to mention that celebrationat the end, if i were Lindsay i would have socked her!). especially with lindsay having to withdraw this week with back trouble and her sister serena lokoing god-awful she could be back to stay... if she stays committed.
 

Shyyre

Rookie
MonkeyPox said:
She's the noisiest one unfortunately. That's the problem.
lol, that's true... i had to turn down the volume on my tv when she played sharapova in the wimbledon semis, though my elderly neighboers might think i was watching porn loudly or something!
 

Andy Zarzuela

Professional
I love the grunting....it adds alot of drama to the match. Venus outplayed and outgrunted Sharapova in the Semis of Wimbledon.
 

Babblelot

Professional
Yeah, Venus will be #1 in a matter of weeks...

"Sharapova, Serena Williams and Justine Henin-Hardenne have withdrawn from San Diego in the past week.

The fifth-ranked Henin-Hardenne withdrew from San Diego citing a hamstring strain she sustained in her run to the Roland Garros title. Henin-Hardenne hopes to return to action at the Rogers Cup in Toronto on August 15th.

The seventh-ranked Serena Williams, who has not played a match since Wimbledon, pulled out citing the nagging left ankle injury.

The second-ranked Sharapova, whose last match was a 7-6(2), 6-1 loss to Venus Williams in the Wimbledon semifinals, is suffering from a sprained back.
"

...now, add Davenport to the list of "walking wounded."
 

RafaN RichardG

Semi-Pro
if she wasnt serious, she wouldnt be in as good a shape as she is(i.e. serena is overweight bc she ISNT serious for the moment), and she wouldnt have won wimbledon
 

AndrewD

Legend
Of course she can get back to the top. Despite all the talk of women's tennis having great depth, it doesn't. If it did then a player couldn't be out of action for almost 12 months, come back and win tournaments immediately. There is only a small group of women who have a genuine chance to win the major tournaments and Venus is one of them. Whether she does or no will merely come down to good health, motivation, a bit of luck and some good form. If that's all in place then I don't see why she couldn't win the upcoming US Open.
 
I just don't see Venus seriously,consistently, contending with a healthy,
on form Henin-Hardenne or Serena.
At their best, those two are the best.
 

ucd_ace

Semi-Pro
She has the potential to put up some good results, but I don't think she will. I can't take any professional athlete who has their own reality tv show very seriously. She's obviously got her mind on things other than tennis. Even if she plays well, I don't think she'd be able to get back on top; maybe somewhere in the top 5, but definately not dominating tour again.
 

bcslice

Rookie
You have to imagine that this is Venus's strongest time of the year. She has almost always done better in the second half of the season. If she wins Stanford today and in Sweden in two weeks (which she should based on the caliber of her competition), she should be hovering around #5-#7 in the rankings. Of course this depends on how the others in the top 10 perform, but I can't imagine that they'd do better than Venus. With a good US Open, she could finish in the top 5 for the year. Can you imagine Petrova, Dementieva, or Myskina making as much noise on hard courts/carpet (except in Moscow)?
 
williams sister continue to win slams despite critics!

it is amazing how tennis people criticize venus and serena but if they weren't playing tennis, the average non-tennis playing person wouldn't even know that tennis existed! 2 of 3 majors thus far won by a williams sister - and their best days are over - oh well, so much for that theory! if one of them wins the us open, line up for crow everyone. i love maria sharapova too but, she's only won 1 grand slam! venus and serena have won over 20 (including doubles and mixed). not bad for 2 girls from the hood who have always done tennis on their own terms. there is a very subtle underlying racism (so subtle that most people don't even recognize their own racism) involved in the williams sister bashings (and tiger woods). you see this primarily in sports historically dominated by whites, like tennis and golf, where people feel threatened for some reason??
 

Babblelot

Professional
tennisjunkiela said:
it is amazing how tennis people criticize venus and serena but if they weren't playing tennis, the average non-tennis playing person wouldn't even know that tennis existed! 2 of 3 majors thus far won by a williams sister - and their best days are over - oh well, so much for that theory! if one of them wins the us open, line up for crow everyone. i love maria sharapova too but, she's only won 1 grand slam! venus and serena have won over 20 (including doubles and mixed). not bad for 2 girls from the hood who have always done tennis on their own terms. there is a very subtle underlying racism (so subtle that most people don't even recognize their own racism) involved in the williams sister bashings (and tiger woods). you see this primarily in sports historically dominated by whites, like tennis and golf, where people feel threatened for some reason??
:p :p :p

Okay
 

Nuke

Hall of Fame
Um, no. People LOVE Tiger Woods. He's the best at what he does and he's gracious, so we don't care what color he is. Race is simply not an issue. But the Williams Sisters display poor attitudes, disdain for the other players, excuses for every loss and when people voice anything negative about them, they get accused of racism. Sorry, I don't buy it. If the Williams sisters were as gracious as Tiger, they would be very much loved by all.
 
james blake, an black player, is "gracious" (and Harvard educated) but that didn't stop leyton hewitt from implying that a black linesman was cheating in blake's behalf. also, read any of the posting about tiger woods in the golf chatrooms and he is criticized for pumping his fist, not playing enough, etc.
 

Nuke

Hall of Fame
Are you implying that Hewett is typical of the sport? Get a grip!

There are a**holes everywhere. Some are racist a**holes. That doesn't mean everybody is racist.
 

Babblelot

Professional
tennisjunkiela said:
james blake, an black player, is "gracious" (and Harvard educated) but that didn't stop leyton hewitt from implying that a black linesman was cheating in blake's behalf. also, read any of the posting about tiger woods in the golf chatrooms and he is criticized for pumping his fist, not playing enough, etc.
I suppose next you'll argue that Arther Ashe and Louis Armstrong Stadiums were named in honor of the other (white) guys...
 

Babblelot

Professional
Just curious, junkie, can one be a fan of the less hearlded other girl from Compton, CA, Angela Haynes, Chanda Rubin, Gael Monfils, Arthur Ashe and Donald Young, or is this strickly an "all or nothing"/"black or white" thing?

(Oh!, I saw Phillip Simmonds play Monfils in a juniors match last year at the USO. I actually like Simmonds more than Monfils...but I suppose you have no idea who I'm talking about. Oh, and Richard Williams wasn't at that match. ;) )
 

RafaN RichardG

Semi-Pro
i think both of u guys better stop before you cause problems, or say something that may offend some of the users here. ill just leave it at that
 

Nuke

Hall of Fame
Well, I think I just said say everyone is NOT racist and the ones who are are a**holes, but now you say we can't talk about it without offending anybody. I guess you must mean the a**holes. Sorry if I offended you.

Hey, everybody, I just saved a bundle on my car insurance!

___________________

Don't hold back, his tag line says as his post instructs us to hold back. Ha!
 

Cavaleer

Semi-Pro
tennisjunkiela said:
it is amazing how tennis people criticize venus and serena but if they weren't playing tennis, the average non-tennis playing person wouldn't even know that tennis existed! 2 of 3 majors thus far won by a williams sister - and their best days are over - oh well, so much for that theory! if one of them wins the us open, line up for crow everyone. i love maria sharapova too but, she's only won 1 grand slam! venus and serena have won over 20 (including doubles and mixed). not bad for 2 girls from the hood who have always done tennis on their own terms. there is a very subtle underlying racism (so subtle that most people don't even recognize their own racism) involved in the williams sister bashings (and tiger woods). you see this primarily in sports historically dominated by whites, like tennis and golf, where people feel threatened for some reason??

At first glance it's very easy to use the "racism" tag on people who don't like or criticize the Williams sisters, but I honestly don't think that's the case with many people today.

More than anything, the fact that they won so much, their behavior on and off the court, as well as the early bad taste left by their father, turns people off. If they had not won so much, no one would think twice about them, one way or another. It's the same with Tiger Woods, Brittany Spears, Michael Jackson et al. Huge sucess is a double-edged sword, especially if you succeed in a novel or controversial way.

I also don't think people's rancor for them would be any different if their hair were red, and their skin pale and freckled, but everything else remained the same, meaning style and success of play, their anti-establishment attitude, grunts, and off-court activities.

But it is possible that some people feel threatened by something about them. I can't imagine what. I personally don't care for their game, their fashions or their off or on-court histrionics. And I'm an American of West-African, Cherokee, Anglo and Sicilian ancestry, what others generally and mistakenly call Black, whatever that's supposed to mean.

Despite the fact that I don't like to watch them I do respect their results. And if Venus commits herself to tennis seriously, only two or three players could beat her, and only if they're playing their best.
 

Babblelot

Professional
C'mon now. Time for a reality check.

There's not a single player who is universally beloved. Sharapova, Roddick, Davenport, Seles, Gaudio, Nadal, Federer, Jill Craybas (that was me :D ), Hewitt, etc.. in addition to the Williams sisters, have taken their lumps on this mb.
 

Cavaleer

Semi-Pro
Babblelot said:
C'mon now. Time for a reality check.

There's not a single player who is universally beloved. Sharapova, Roddick, Davenport, Seles, Gaudio, Nadal, Federer, Jill Craybas (that was me :D ), Hewitt, etc.. in addition to the Williams sisters, have taken their lumps on this mb.
I agree with you. And even more so if you win a lot and do it in a controversial style. Just think how many people hated Mcenroe.
 

Marius_Hancu

Talk Tennis Guru
the TRUE number one is there for the taking.

Serena, JHH, Venus, the year's Slam winners, will have all a chance to take it, should they win the USO.

to my mind, 2 Slams in a year make one number 1 for that year, irrespective what the bloody rankings are saying or how much tennis they are playing during the rest of the season.
 

Babblelot

Professional
Marius_Hancu said:
the TRUE number one is there for the taking.

Serena, JHH, Venus, the year's Slam winners, will have all a chance to take it, should they win the USO.

to my mind, 2 Slams in a year make one number 1 for that year, irrespective what the bloody rankings are saying or how much tennis they are playing during the rest of the season.
Here, here! I'll second that.
 

Yours!05

Professional
Cavaleer said:
At first glance it's very easy to use the "racism" tag on people who don't like or criticize the Williams sisters, but I honestly don't think that's the case with many people today.

More than anything, the fact that they won so much, their behavior on and off the court, as well as the early bad taste left by their father, turns people off. If they had not won so much, no one would think twice about them, one way or another. It's the same with Tiger Woods, Brittany Spears, Michael Jackson et al. Huge sucess is a double-edged sword, especially if you succeed in a novel or controversial way.

I also don't think people's rancor for them would be any different if their hair were red, and their skin pale and freckled, but everything else remained the same, meaning style and success of play, their anti-establishment attitude, grunts, and off-court activities.

But it is possible that some people feel threatened by something about them. I can't imagine what. I personally don't care for their game, their fashions or their off or on-court histrionics. And I'm an American of West-African, Cherokee, Anglo and Sicilian ancestry, what others generally and mistakenly call Black, whatever that's supposed to mean.

Despite the fact that I don't like to watch them I do respect their results. And if Venus commits herself to tennis seriously, only two or three players could beat her, and only if they're playing their best.
Bravo Cavaleer. A number of recent threads would've benefited from your wise analysis.
 
it is amazing the number of incidents that have happened in our colorblind sport of tennis and just coincidently, many of them involve the williams sisters.
recap - serena is agressively booed at the french open when she protests an erroneous call that the court umpire makes. john mcenroe was the only tv announcer who dared suggest that racism could be involved in the french's out of proportion response to serena's legitimate protest. all the other announcers theorized that the french were pulling for justine because she's european and speaks french.
indian wells - venus is injured and withdraws from a match against serena. serena is booed and racial expletives are shouted at her and her father. they haven't been back to indian wells since.
us open last year - serena asks 'what really going on here?" when her shot is called out and it's a good six inches in? the us open apologizes for the bad call and vows to explore electronic review.
venus williams is cheated out of a point in a tiebreaker at wimbledon last year.
leyton hewitt implys that a black linesman is cheating in behalf of james blake, a black player.
let's face it people, in the real world (which includes the tennis world, i think), all kind of isms exist. otherwise, martina would have gotten endorsements at least on par with "all-american" chris evert and one slam wonder myskina would be raking in the endorsement dollars like the other one slam wonder sharapova.
 

Yours!05

Professional
tennisjunkiela said:
it is amazing the number of incidents that have happened in our colorblind sport of tennis and just coincidently, many of them involve the williams sisters.
recap - serena is agressively booed at the french open when she protests an erroneous call that the court umpire makes. john mcenroe was the only tv announcer who dared suggest that racism could be involved in the french's out of proportion response to serena's legitimate protest. all the other announcers theorized that the french were pulling for justine because she's european and speaks french.
indian wells - venus is injured and withdraws from a match against serena. serena is booed and racial expletives are shouted at her and her father. they haven't been back to indian wells since.
us open last year - serena asks 'what really going on here?" when her shot is called out and it's a good six inches in? the us open apologizes for the bad call and vows to explore electronic review.
venus williams is cheated out of a point in a tiebreaker at wimbledon last year.
leyton hewitt implys that a black linesman is cheating in behalf of james blake, a black player.
let's face it people, in the real world (which includes the tennis world, i think), all kind of isms exist. otherwise, martina would have gotten endorsements at least on par with "all-american" chris evert and one slam wonder myskina would be raking in the endorsement dollars like the other one slam wonder sharapova.
Too true. And sticking with what I know best, my fellow-countrymen, IMO the racist implication of the bogan yob Hewitt has been many times exceeded by the nasty, sexist almost-running commentary on women's tennis provided to the world by Pat Cash.:(
 
Cavaleer said:
I also don't think people's rancor for them would be any different if their hair were red, and their skin pale and freckled, but everything else remained the same, meaning style and success of play, their anti-establishment attitude, grunts, and off-court activities.

But it is possible that some people feel threatened by something about them. I can't imagine what. I personally don't care for their game, their fashions or their off or on-court histrionics. And I'm an American of West-African, Cherokee, Anglo and Sicilian ancestry, what others generally and mistakenly call Black, whatever that's supposed to mean.

Despite the fact that I don't like to watch them I do respect their results. And if Venus commits herself to tennis seriously, only two or three players could beat her, and only if they're playing their best.
Wow, that was very well said and right on. My main problem with them is the Diva/Actress/Director/Fashion Designer/Whatever attitude. Do they really think anyone would care if not for their success in tennis?

Also agree that Venus can win majors if she stays focused on training and tennis. She is in shape and playing very well at the moment. On the other hand, unless Serena has a Capriati-like epiphany, she could be the next Whitney Houston.
 

Cavaleer

Semi-Pro
tennisjunkiela said:
it is amazing the number of incidents that have happened in our colorblind sport of tennis and just coincidently, many of them involve the williams sisters.
recap - serena is agressively booed at the french open when she protests an erroneous call that the court umpire makes. john mcenroe was the only tv announcer who dared suggest that racism could be involved in the french's out of proportion response to serena's legitimate protest. all the other announcers theorized that the french were pulling for justine because she's european and speaks french.
indian wells - venus is injured and withdraws from a match against serena. serena is booed and racial expletives are shouted at her and her father. they haven't been back to indian wells since.
us open last year - serena asks 'what really going on here?" when her shot is called out and it's a good six inches in? the us open apologizes for the bad call and vows to explore electronic review.
venus williams is cheated out of a point in a tiebreaker at wimbledon last year.
leyton hewitt implys that a black linesman is cheating in behalf of james blake, a black player.
let's face it people, in the real world (which includes the tennis world, i think), all kind of isms exist. otherwise, martina would have gotten endorsements at least on par with "all-american" chris evert and one slam wonder myskina would be raking in the endorsement dollars like the other one slam wonder sharapova.

The incidents you cited could lead one to conclude, at least at first glance, that there is some sort of bias based on skin-tone, or othwer superficial factors.

Unfortunately, upon deeper investigation only the name-calling incident at Indian Wells and Hewitt's paranoia hold up.

Serena was booed because she was an American who had made fun of France's resistance to Bush's hunger for war with Iraq. Read the stories and you'll find that Serena disparaged the French by saying they preferred to make pretty clothes rather than fight. The French were itching for any opportunity to trade insults with her.

As for the bad calls, people please, tennis has always had bad calls and probably always will. Sometimes you're on the winning side and sometimes you're on the losing side. Serena's breakdown over something so trivial only mattered because she was playing so poorly. Had she been up a set and two breaks she wouldn't have blinked, nor would anyone else.

And as for the marketing issues, Kuznetsova is blonde, if I recall correctly, and she didn't receive a second glance from the big agencies. Which proves the point that blonde-ness is generally overrated. Sharapova is pretty, very statuesque and the camer a likes her. Plus, the way that she won Wimbledon made a great splash. Myskina, Kuznetsova and the other Russians are unfortunately grouped together in the minds of most viewers, and even more so the advertisers. Until one of them develops a clear identity they'll never receive the interest of Sharapova.

With Martina you had a similar phenomenon because her face wasn't "pretty", she was Eastern European, and her body and style of play were unorthodox, shall we say. She, however, broke the mold and paved the way for Graf and all the women who followed her who played aggressively and who looked like world-class athletes. Martina herself was amazed at Serena's commercial success considering how she (Serena) looks, and the abuse she took twenty years ago because she looked "mannish." I personally thought she looked sexy as h*ll but I was among the minority in that view.

Let's avoid the misteps of the past and not make assumptions or knee-jerk reactions to isolated incidents. We, as a country, have surely outgrown that, at least most of us have. ;)
 

Cavaleer

Semi-Pro
K. Wilson Moose said:
Wow, that was very well said and right on. My main problem with them is the Diva/Actress/Director/Fashion Designer/Whatever attitude. Do they really think anyone would care if not for their success in tennis?

Also agree that Venus can win majors if she stays focused on training and tennis. She is in shape and playing very well at the moment. On the other hand, unless Serena has a Capriati-like epiphany, she could be the next Whitney Houston.

Thanks, but let's hope Serena doesn't crash and burn that badly. Although the comparison is apt in terms of wasted talent. Whitney's voice was a national treasure and now it's a national travesty.

And the coup de grace, they both have reality TV shows. Scary, no?
 
don't make knee jerk dismissals of a real phenomen - it's called racism

i remember sitting in business school years ago and a male professor trying to convince the female mba students that the glass ceiling was gone:

his rationale:
fill the pipeline with talented women and the cream will surely rise to the top

fast forward 20 years, the mba schools, law schools, etc are over 50% women and have been for quite some time, but yet we still have fewer than 5 female ceos at the fortune 500 companies in america. so there are 2 conclusions one could draw:

1. the women just aren't cutting it (that's whole inferiority argument, most recently championed by the president of harvard university, of all places)

or

2. people aren't simply judged by their results but rather by other "extraneous" factors such as race, sexual identity, looks, etc.

sorry to shock you - but "isms" exist!!! and they can negatively affect people lives

i find it very comical that you have a convenient reason to explain away all these racial incidents in tennis. if only one of them is a bias based on skin tone, that's one too many.

tennis has a sordid history of race relations (i suggest you read ashe's biography or check out althea gibson's website). america has progressed in that we no longer lynch people of color in the streets but our "isms" are very much alive but very subtle.

and the only hope we have of "avoiding the misteps of the past" (to use your quote) is to face up to our issues and not to make "knee jerk dismissals" of real problems.


fyi, blacks and latino americans with the same exact health insurance coverage and income levels as whites are consistently given substandard health services (this is just one statistic - and it's from the us center for disease control - year 2004 NOT 1954!!!).
 

Cavaleer

Semi-Pro
fyi, blacks and latino americans with the same exact health insurance coverage and income levels as whites are consistently given substandard health services (this is just one statistic - and it's from the us center for disease control - year 2004 NOT 1954!!!).[/QUOTE]


TennisjunkieLA, I didn't say that obstructive and potentially harmful biases don't exist in America. The habits and mental warping of 200 years don't simply disappear because a few laws were passed and some good speeches were made.

Clearly, tennis was one of the most paranoid and fearful sports, along with golf. But as long as competition was allowed, which for the majority of tennis' and golf's history it was not, I don't know why a few neurotic small-minds in the stands mean anything. If they're not in the path of your success, who cares? And if they are in your way, confront them and go around, over or through them. I don't even give their mindless chatter the respect of calling it an -ism. It's just pathetic, fearful, small-minds, whether they wear a Brooks Brothers suit or chew tobacco. Small minds have always been around and they'll always be around. Why concern yourself?

To me, the way to handle these situations is to become excellent at whatever the particular task is, confront the paranoia directly and trample it. I call this the Jack Johnson method because that's exactly what Jack Johnson did to win the world heavyweight boxing crown in 1910, surrounded by thousands of biased, paranoid, white-skinned Americans, shouting who knows what at him.

And how did Jack Johnson handle the shouts and supposed insults, you wonder? Did he whine and tuck-tail like Richard Williams did at Indian Wells? No, Jack Johnson smiled and pummeled his opponent and smiled at the crowd too.....in 1910. Check the recent superb PBS documentary on Johnson if you don't believe me.

Of course Johnson heard the usual cowardly death-threats etc, and did not blink. His victory was one of only two days in American history that spontaneously ignited so-called "race-riots", I call them ethnic clashes, across the country. The other was MLK's assassination.

Female executives often face similar and even more cowardly obstacles in the workplace from threatened, fearful men, of all shades. Because the business playing field is not level or public, as it is in sports, it's easier for the mediocre and fearful to ban together to protect themselves. Strength in numbers,as it is said. Does this make the workplace frustrating? Of course. Does this mean they should throw up their arms in despair? Never. They should employ the Jack Johnson method, so that even if they don't receive the top-spot they'll know they were the best. Even if they lose they'll win. Obviously this is the same for anyone facing great odds and challenges, regardless of skin-tone or gender.

Health-care issues are very difficult to generalize, as are many statistics, because of regional and state variances. However, I'm sure inequities do exist and they should be dug up and rooted out, when and where possible. On this point, I also think that perception conditions reality as much as reality conditions perception. But reality comes first and can eventually eliminate and overturn perceptions, if you understand my point. It takes time, usually decades for this to happen, but it has happened, think Japanese products and Indian immigrants. Just think of how different the reality would be if every AA male who was in prison were instead in law or med school. Perception would be forced to follow this reality and eventually many discrepancies would correct themselves, one way or another. This is the long-term, permanent solution to these problems that no organization like the NAACP or the Urban League or Jesse Jackson or the ACLU can provide. The tragedy is they don't know this or perhaps they don't want to know this because this solution would make them obsolete.

My point is that the biggest challenges and the solutions to big challenges are always internal, as Jack Johnson so convincingly proved. He knew he was going to be the world champion, whatever the obstacles, and eventually he was the world champ. I doubt anyone alive, male or remale of any shade, has faced the number of challenges and obstacles Johnson faced, and its equally doubtful that many of us will achieve what he achieved in the style that he achieved it.

But at bottom, it is one thing to recognize a challenge. The most important thing is how you face it.

So the next time you face an obstacle or a challenge, whether in the office or on the tennis court, remember Jack Johnson, and trample it with a smile.
 

bertrevert

Hall of Fame
Great analysis. I think the OP asked a question about Venus' talent and whether she would re-dedicate herself to her cause.

Hijacking this thread to debate racism was not really what the OP asked.

Tennis is littered with many examples of wated talents. Can Venus get back on track?

I wish she would. She has an immense game and an immensely bad attitude. She must want to be number One though to get it. The Hingis example is the most recent of this type of thing.
 
“Confronting the “ism” directly and trampling it!”

I couldn’t agree with you more – “the best way to deal with any ism or paranoia (or whatever word one chooses to label it with) is to confront it directly and to trample it!”

And if you know the history of America well, this has been accomplished in many ways. Some people have decided to be like Jack Johnson or Marian Anderson and simply internalize the insults/death threats and trudge on. Others, like Martin Luther King Jr, on the other hand, decided to organize protests and sit-ins to advocate for change. Others like Thurgood Marshall and the NAACP Legal Defense decided to file lawsuits and pursue legal remedies (i.e. Brown vs. the board of education) to drive change. Others like Mary McLeod Bethune used personal influence with Eleanor & Franklin Roosevelt to drive change. Other like Susan B. Anthony pursued legislative change to correct social inequities. Others like Caesar Chavez organized economic boycotts. And we’ve even used bloodshed and violence (i.e. the Civil War) and to accomplish change in American society.

The point is that there is a myriad of approaches to dealing with any “isms” and I would not dare try to tell anyone or prescribe what the best way to deal with a problem.

When Martin Luther King, as an affluent third-generation college educated black, took up the cause of integrating the bus system in Birmingham, he was branded as a “trouble-maker” (by both whites and many blacks). “Instead of complaining”, many whites said, why don’t black people just work hard/stop wasting their money and buy their own cars, if riding at the back of the bus isn’t good enough for them. For many blacks, who had lived under the cruelties of 1950’s Jim-Crow, where they couldn’t even ride public transportation at all, things seemed “better”, even if they had to ride at the back of the bus. So many of them also didn’t want martin Luther king “stiring up trouble” either. But Martin Luther King didn’t just want “better”, he wanted “fair”. Thankfully, he stuck to his guns and fought for change (in a way he deemed most appropriate). And his actions forever change the course of American society.

In our ism-free world of tennis, we have not been able to “confront our isms directly and to trample them” because every time there is an incident, people such as yourself try to explain away the causes. Thankfully in tennis, we do have people like Martina Navratilova, Billie Jean King, and to a lesser extent, John McEnroe, who are not afraid to deal with issues directly and to speak up.

If I was Richard Williams and my daughters were subjected to racial taunts, I certainly would not voluntarily put them in that environment again. So if doing what’s best for daughters means he “tucked his tail at Indian Wells”, I have no opinion on that. [B]Again, I wouldn’t dare try to tell Mr. Williams what to do or how he should respond. He alone has to decide what the appropriate response is for himself and his family.

I have been watching the reality show on the Williams sisters and Richard and his wife have done excellent job raising two articulate, self-assured young women who believe they can accomplish anything in life they decide to do. I applaud them!! I can only hope I do as good of a job as a parent.

[B]Are Serena and Venus bold and audacious – of course! Why would they not be? Their father actually had the audacity to believe that, with no formal tennis training himself, that could simply buy some books/videos and develop his daughters into world class athletes and that they would actually become the top players in women’s tennis!! Like father, like daughter.
Maria has inherited that same audacious spirit from her dad.

If you haven’t noticed, tennis has changed. Welcome to the ipod generation. I don’t think you’re going to be seeing any more one-dimensional, tennis-only, champions in the near future. Maria, Venus, and Serena are like the rest of the celebrity world. They want to be involved in fashion, acting, etc. They are attractive, ambitious, young women who don’t want wake up at 35 and realize all they did was play tennis. Again, I would not dare try to dictate to anyone what is best for them. And considering that they are still winning slams, I think they are doing pretty well!

I could go one by one and address the many pieces of misinformation and stereotypes included in your response but unfortunately, it is a beautiful Saturday here in sunny California and I have many things to do. In closing, we have a ways to go in the tennis world but before we can even begin to “face our challenges”, we have to acknowledge that we have them.
 

Cavaleer

Semi-Pro
bertrevert said:
Great analysis. I think the OP asked a question about Venus' talent and whether she would re-dedicate herself to her cause.

Hijacking this thread to debate racism was not really what the OP asked.

Tennis is littered with many examples of wated talents. Can Venus get back on track?

I wish she would. She has an immense game and an immensely bad attitude. She must want to be number One though to get it. The Hingis example is the most recent of this type of thing.
You're right. I had not intended to hijack the thread but I couldn't resist. Apologies.

I, however, don't think Venus' attitude can be as bad as her sister's. I don't think she's ever said she didn't remember a pasting in a Wimbledon final. ;)
 

Cavaleer

Semi-Pro
And if you know the history of America well, this has been accomplished in many ways. Some people have decided to be like Jack Johnson or Marian Anderson and simply internalize the insults/death threats and trudge on.

I don't know if Marian Anderson internalized anything but I know Jack Johnson internalized nothing. He saw the cowardice for what it was.

The point is that there is a myriad of approaches to dealing with any “isms” and I would not dare try to tell anyone or prescribe what the best way to deal with a problem.

True, to some degree. But if the Jack Johnson method had been followed instead of Dubois', Thurgood Marshall's et al, the situation would have been taken care of long before 1960.

I have been watching the reality show on the Williams sisters and Richard and his wife have done excellent job raising two articulate, self-assured young women who believe they can accomplish anything in life they decide to do. I applaud them!! I can only hope I do as good of a job as a parent.

I'm sure you'll do just as well, hopefully better, especially in the area of grace and poise in victory and defeat. But these may simply be the follies of youth on their part, (Venus's and Serena's).

[B]Are Serena and Venus bold and audacious – of course! Why would they not be? Their father actually had the audacity to believe that, with no formal tennis training himself, that could simply buy some books/videos and develop his daughters into world class athletes and that they would actually become the top players in women’s tennis!! Like father, like daughter.[/B] Maria has inherited that same audacious spirit from her dad.

I don't know if Williams was audacious or simply determined to have his daughters receive large paychecks. Either way, he had the sense to know that the fundamentals of tennis, like the fundamentals of anything, can be learned with study and dedication. For that, I applaud him.

If you haven’t noticed, tennis has changed. Welcome to the ipod generation. I don’t think you’re going to be seeing any more one-dimensional, tennis-only, champions in the near future. Maria, Venus, and Serena are like the rest of the celebrity world. They want to be involved in fashion, acting, etc. They are attractive, ambitious, young women who don’t want wake up at 35 and realize all they did was play tennis. Again, I would not dare try to dictate to anyone what is best for them. And considering that they are still winning slams, I think they are doing pretty well!

The extra-curriculars are fine, but they will be passed by players who focus exclusively on tennis if their attention continues to be so distracted. They raised the bar and many others caught up. Venus has righted her ship. Hopefully, Serena can do the same. At this point it's more mental than it is physical, Serena's current injury notwithstanding. I think her ouster at Wimbledon was her wake-up call.

I could go one by one and address the many pieces of misinformation and stereotypes included in your response but unfortunately, it is a beautiful Saturday here in sunny California and I have many things to do. In closing, we have a ways to go in the tennis world but before we can even begin to “face our challenges”, we have to acknowledge that we have them.[/QUOTE]

There was, in fact, no misinformation or stereotyping in my post. And the challenges in tennis at this point are thankfully between the lines and between the ears. Anything else is irrelevant chatter, even bad calls.
 
Well Cavaleer, I feel much better NOW knowing which method for effecting societal change have been approved by you. Hopefully, future generations will now know not the follow the example of those other ineffective leaders like Martin Luther King Jr, Thurgood Marshall, Mary McLeod Bethune, Susan B. Anthony and Caesar Chavez.
 
Well Cavaleer, I now feel much better knowing which method for effecting societal change has been approved by you. Hopefully, future generations will now know not to follow the example of those other ineffective leaders like Martin Luther King Jr, Thurgood Marshall, Mary McLeod Bethune, Susan B. Anthony and Caesar Chavez.
 
tennisjunkiela said:
.....every time there's an incident, people such as yourself try to explain away the causes.
Hey Cavaleer, can you imagine the self-righteous indignation (in all it's strident 24-carat hypocracy) you'd have encountered had YOU choose to "cavalierly" use that same kind of "you people" phraseology in order to "explain away" (ah-hem...) for example....er, a Reginald Denny, or a Colin Ferguson? Enjoy your "sunny California" Saturday tennisjunkiela, and might I recommend a trip to the South Central Spa and Resort for one of their soothing cinder block "fracture-facials."

Totally over-the-top but what isn't off-topic or over-the-top on a thread that's been more than hi-jacked? z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z-z........
 
Stereotyping keeps people from having to think!

Dedans Penthouse said:
"South Central Spa and Resort"[/i] for one of their soothing cinder block "fracture-facials."

Stereotyping keeps people from having to think! As a white person teaching school in south los angeles, I am totally against ANY persons who use stereotypes (like your stereotype above) to excuse and justify social inequities. So if you are one of those "you people" - persons with closed minds (of all races and sexes) who refused to think beyond stereotypes - you fit right in with those thugs who stereotyped reginald denny and violated his human rights. Tennis has had far too many racial incidents and given it's sordid history (read ashe's biography and althea gibson's), we ALL have to be viligent about making excuses about dealing with the "isms" of all stripes in our sport!
 

joe sch

Legend
I dont think she care about being #1 but rather getting a few more slams. She needs to stay near the top and keep fit, which is a task with all of her distractions. Atleast she has the body to enable this unlike her sister who would need to train alot harder to continue to be a factor in the future.
 
tennisjunkiela:

And you are so glued to your "tennis is racist!" soapbox, that you completely missed the point of my irreverent little joke, which had to do with your ironic "stereotyping" (rhetorically speaking). The gist of my post was that:

the "you people" comment (i.e. "people like you") that YOU cavalierly tossed Cavaleer's way was a phrase that "stereotyping types" are fond of using, i.e. intentionally or not, you employed the same type of "broadbrush/you people" phraseology that the "bad guys" use. Further, I thought the cheeky "cavilierely/cavaleer" word play I employed might've spelled out my not-so-serious intent. Frankly, I'd be happy to talk about all the injustices in the world, about Jim Crow laws, about racism in tennis---but not (thank you anyway) on threads that have been hi-jacked by "soap box" artists. As for ol' Reggie, well, too bad he felt it incumbent to have to move out of your "beautiful, sunny California." I did like my "facial" joke, though....

Now, what if I made a "crack" about some botox'ed, materialistic 'crack'er on Rodeo Drive? Would THAT have gotten as much of a rise outta you? Come on, chief: level with me.....would it? (I didn't think so)

In a nutshell: too bad that you felt compelled to take a simple "VENUS: CAN SHE MAKE SOME NOISE?" thread and hi-jack it. FYI: I voted that she could. But that's besides the point--hey newbie, you wanna "soapbox" it? Start a thread whose subject IS about racism. As for being one of "those people with closed minds" ...... brother, you haven't a clue as to who I am.

So, to that end, don't point your California "P.C." gun at me and suggest that I too am the boogeyman. I too hate injustice and racism just like the next schmuck ..... but.....(warning! stereotype forthcoming!), as I am not a member of the academia, I abhor bigotry from BOTH sides of the political spectrum. I don't dispise right-wing bigots exclusively. And you? Come on chief, level with me: and you? After all, I wouldn't want to be accused to "stereotyping" members of the academic community as a bunch of "holier-than-thou" left-wingers. (LMAO!). Pleeezze professor....
 

Phil

Hall of Fame
Cavaleer said:
And as for the marketing issues, Kuznetsova is blonde, if I recall correctly, and she didn't receive a second glance from the big agencies.
That's because she looks like a troll. You ever actually taken a look at that face? It's hard, I know...

With Martina you had a similar phenomenon because her face wasn't "pretty", she was Eastern European, and her body and style of play were unorthodox, shall we say. She, however, broke the mold and paved the way for Graf and all the women who followed her who played aggressively and who looked like world-class athletes. Martina herself was amazed at Serena's commercial success considering how she (Serena) looks, and the abuse she took twenty years ago because she looked "mannish." I personally thought she looked sexy as h*ll but I was among the minority in that view.
Dude...the reason that Martina Navratilova didn't get endorsements had nothing to do with her non-pretty face...new to tennis, are you? And yes, you would have been in the minority on your view that she looked sexy, unless of course, you happen to be a ge-hy woman who likes the athletic type.

Let's avoid the misteps of the past and not make assumptions or knee-jerk reactions to isolated incidents. We, as a country, have surely outgrown that, at least most of us have. ;)
No, most of us have not. You've got to go easier on the sauce, there, chief.
 
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