Is Wawrinka really that good or is he just a horrible match up for Djokovic?

Noleberic123

Noleberic123

G.O.A.T.
Wawrinka is a really weird one IMO. Does anyone here think that Wawrinka would have won those slam finals had he faced Fedal instead. Yes I know that he beat Nadal in 2014 but Nadal was injured. Could he have defeated a healthy Nadal like he did Djokovic?

Even Djokovic himself seems to deal with Wawrinka pretty comfortably outside of the slams. But at the slams Wawrinka is nowhere near as successful against Fedal like he is against Djokovic. Is it a match up problem or could Wawrinka have done the same thing to Fedal? Is it just a coincidence because Djokovic has been the most consistent player all these years and thus he has been Wawrinka's main obstacle to GS glory?
 
He is 3-23 against Federer with all three of his win coming on clay.

He is 3-19 against Nadal with two of his wins coming in 2015 when Nadal was in his worst season.

Fed and Nadal are simply his worst matchup no matter how good Stan is playing.
 
He is good but he also is fortunate. He is a nemisis of sorts for Djokovic in a best of 5, while losing to him easily normally in a best of 3. So it is a match up thing and also probably some a mental thing. He is horrible against both Federer and Nadal, the other members of the Big 3. He does fairly well against Murray, the 4th member of the Big 4 (for me there is a Big 3, Big 4, and Big 5), and does really well against Berdych, normally Del Potro, and the others behind him. So he is good, but he is also fortunate.

I like him though so I am glad he is.
 
Leaning more towards the match up. I imagine that Djokovic from 2011, even 2007-08 wouldn't have had many problems with him. Not that I am complaining much, most of his adapting over the years brought great results but one of the prices it came at is a bit of an uncomfortable match up in Slams against Wawrinka (one could throw Thiem in there as well but Novak has now declined in general so it's a smaller example). And he still had his chances to win those matches too.
 
flutzingitaway said:
He is good but he also is fortunate. He is a nemisis of sorts for Djokovic in a best of 5, while losing to him easily normally in a best of 3. So it is a match up thing and also probably some a mental thing. He is horrible against both Federer and Nadal, the other members of the Big 3. He does fairly well against Murray, the 4th member of the Big 4 (for me there is a Big 3, Big 4, and Big 5), and does really well against Berdych, normally Del Potro, and the others behind him. So he is good, but he is also fortunate.

I like him though so I am glad he is.
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Of course he is a fantastic player. However, I'm asking if he is really good enough to beat ATG's in slams consistently.
 
The thing is his horrible records vs both Federer and Nadal, even since Stan became Stan starting in 2013/2014, and his overall horrible record vs Djokovic, indicate the Big 3 is a huge wall for him. And this is a really old Federer for the most part. The lone exception being when he plays Djokovic in best of 5 only (not best of 3). He also has success over the years vs Federer on clay, and would have a good shot anytime he plays Nadal on an indoor/carpet type surface. Aside from that he is pretty hopeless vs any players beyond/above Murray who is obviously just above Stan in the pecking order, but whom he holds his own against.

That is what tells me it is mostly a match up thing. And I love Stan, just being realistic when assessing the overall situation by the data that exists.
 
I think as much as anything it is a confidence thing against Novak for Stan (and vice versa) and he has it. Things being different outside of slams, I don't know, Stan's disinterest in anything but majors until he was derailed by the injuries was pretty amusingly legendary (though I contend he'd have given him something to think about Paris 2015 if he hadn't finished at like dawn the day before).
 
Mainad said:
None of which supports your assertion that Stan was the only player not afraid to go toe to toe with Djokovic from the baseline, does it?
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When you say that Murray enjoyed playing Djokovic? He knew he would have to suffer to win sets let alone the match. Wawrinka genuinely enjoyed outhitting Djokovic.
 
Noleberic123 said:
When you say that Murray enjoyed playing Djokovic? He knew he would have to suffer to win sets let alone the match. Wawrinka genuinely enjoyed outhitting Djokovic.
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I didn't say anything about enjoyment (although I believe Murray has always enjoyed playing Djokovic), I'm talking about lack of fear. Murray, like Stan, has never shown any fear when playing Novak from the baseline as his record proves.

For that matter, what about Nadal? He's never been afraid to go toe to toe from the baseline with him either.
 
Murray wasnt the same player past like 2016, I'd say he's more effective than Wawa against Djokovic usually.
 
Mainad said:
What possible evidence have you got for any of that and, in any case, it still doesn't prove your assertion that only Stan was unafraid to do this, does it?

For that matter, what about Nadal? He's never been afraid to go toe to toe from the baseline with him either.
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I agree on Djokovic-Murray but correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Murray have a pretty poor record vs Nadal, imparticular in slams.

Out of Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, Djokvoic is absolutely the match up Murray preferred the most.

For Wawrinka it is also Djokovic.

For Del Potro it is probably Nadal

For Berdych it is nobody.

For Cilic it is ?? maybe Federer, for sure anyone but Djokovic.
 
Mainad said:
I didn't say anything about enjoyment (although I believe Murray has always enjoyed playing Djokovic), I'm talking about lack of fear. Murray, like Stan, has never shown any fear when playing Novak from the baseline as his record proves.

For that matter, what about Nadal? He's never been afraid to go toe to toe from the baseline with him either.
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I'm not sure what his record proves since he is 2-8 against Djokovic in slams while Wawrinka is 4-4. I have never seen Djokovic look lost from the baseline against Murray like he has against Wawrinka.

Really? Because whenever I have watched a Djokodal match in the past decade it has always been Djokovic controlling the baseline.
 
Djokovic's style is very monotonous and allows Stan to get into a rhythm from the baseline. Stan suffers most if you change the pace of the incoming ball and Djokovic is not an expert at that. His strength lies more in the redirection of the ball. Obviously, Federer changes pace extremely well, and Stan has a 1HBH so Nadal kills it most of the time.

Wawrinka really is that good, but it's no secret that he matches up pretty well with Djokovic. Still, it's not like Djokovic is hopeless against him even at slams. Even in 2013+ I think it's pretty even right? Not only that, it would be in Djokovic's favour if Stan was good enough to reach him at Wimbledon so a lot of it is surface related as well.
 
flutzingitaway said:
I agree on Djokovic-Murray but correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Murray have a pretty poor record vs Nadal, imparticular in slams.
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Nadal has always been the toughest match-up for him which is why his H2H with Nadal is worse than with either of the other Big 3. Nevertheless he has 2 Slam wins against him, same as against Djokovic and 1 more than against Federer.

Outside of the Slams, Murray has had some impressive wins over Nadal in ATP Finals eg. 2009 Rotterdam, 2011 Tokyo, 2015 Madrid (the first 2 finished with a bagel and the 3rd was a straight sets beatdown) so I guess H2Hs don't always tell the whole story.
 
Steve0904 said:
Djokovic's style is very monotonous and allows Stan to get into a rhythm from the baseline. Stan suffers most if you change the pace of the incoming ball and Djokovic is not an expert at that. His strength lies more in the redirection of the ball. Obviously, Federer changes pace extremely well, and Stan has a 1HBH so Nadal kills it most of the time.

Wawrinka really is that good, but it's no secret that he matches up pretty well with Djokovic. Still, it's not like Djokovic is hopeless against him even at slams. Even in 2013+ I think it's pretty even right? Not only that, it would be in Djokovic's favour if Stan was good enough to reach him at Wimbledon so a lot of it is surface related as well.
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It's 4-3 in favour of Wawrinka since 2013.
 
Noleberic123 said:
I'm not sure what his record proves since he is 2-8 against Djokovic in slams while Wawrinka is 4-4. I have never seen Djokovic look lost from the baseline against Murray like he has against Wawrinka.
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Well, the 2 mentioned were Slam finals, the toughest of all events to play. But I'm talking about their other matchups as well. Overall, the H2H between Djokovic and Murray in big tour finals (Slams, WTF, Masters) is 10-8 to Djokovic which hardly suggests Murray has a record of fear when facing him in those events.

Noleberic123 said:
Really? Because whenever I have watched a Djokodal match in the past decade it has always been Djokovic controlling the baseline.
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Doesn't seem like you have been watching too many of their RG or US Open finals then. :cool:
 
Mainad said:
Well, the 2 mentioned were Slam finals, the toughest of all events to play. But I'm talking about their other matchups as well. Overall, the H2H between Djokovic and Murray in big tour finals (Slams, WTF, Masters) is 10-8 to Djokovic which hardly suggests Murray has a record of fear when facing him in those events.



Doesn't seem like you have been watching too many of their RG or US Open finals then. :cool:
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I even said that Murray was the tougher opponent overall. In slams ,however, If Djokovic was given a chose who to play I suspect he would pick Murray over Wawrinka.

Right. Nadal's best court and an anomaly
 
Steve0904 said:
Djokovic's style is very monotonous and allows Stan to get into a rhythm from the baseline. Stan suffers most if you change the pace of the incoming ball and Djokovic is not an expert at that. His strength lies more in the redirection of the ball. Obviously, Federer changes pace extremely well, and Stan has a 1HBH so Nadal kills it most of the time.

Wawrinka really is that good, but it's no secret that he matches up pretty well with Djokovic. Still, it's not like Djokovic is hopeless against him even at slams. Even in 2013+ I think it's pretty even right? Not only that, it would be in Djokovic's favour if Stan was good enough to reach him at Wimbledon so a lot of it is surface related as well.
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Not surface relates when Stan has beaten Novak on HC and clay and at 3/4 slams.
 
Mainad said:
Nadal has always been the toughest match-up for him which is why his H2H with Nadal is worse than with either of the other Big 3. Nevertheless he has 2 Slam wins against him, same as against Djokovic and 1 more than against Federer.

Outside of the Slams, Murray has had some impressive wins over Nadal in ATP Finals eg. 2009 Rotterdam, 2011 Tokyo, 2015 Madrid (the first 2 finished with a bagel and the 3rd was a straight sets beatdown) so I guess H2Hs don't always tell the whole story.
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Plus he is good enough on clay to play many matches with Nadal there. The more you play Nadal on clay, well you know the rest. And that does not matter who you are. That is the one place you never even see Federer fans go the "in Federer's prime" route, in fact Nadal already made that possible when it comes to Nadal and clay.
 
Noleberic123 said:
Wawrinka is a really weird one IMO. Does anyone here think that Wawrinka would have won those slam finals had he faced Fedal instead. Yes I know that he beat Nadal in 2014 but Nadal was injured.
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Nadal's injury in the 2014 Australian Open was a fraud like most Nadal injuries. He was losing and made himself "injured". Yes agree with your point overall though.
 
Guys are allowed to be streaky, and that's the word I'd apply to Wawrinka. Does it really matter how often lightning strikes, so long as it does? No one would ever accuse him of being consistently good.
 
If Lew thinks Federer has a short peak, look to Stan! 4 years, that's all he had in him... But how I enjoyed his runs. Stan is the biggest sensation in tennis since 2013. The rest has been predictable, apart from Cilic' magnificent run, but that's a one-off.

Those short peaks... Something in the Swiss water?

I think Stan has proven he is a good big match player, and very dependant on form. Can beat the best, but can also lose to anybody.

For a guy with 3 slams, he has really has had little success outside slams.
 
i already chipped in on this several times........djokovic is vulnerable against strong single handers........stan was always hot and cold and peaked sometimes for slams.......but there was this short period in 2014 - 2016 he looked unstoppable at times, i suspect booster doses in bed from his 19 year old gf turned him into a beast for a little period........
 
DjokoGOAT said:
Wawrinka beat peak Federer at RG and peak Djokovic at AO and RG. USO was a soft win.
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2015 peak Federer, LOL!

And I would argue beating in form Del Potro coming off an Olympic silver on hard courts, in form Nishikori coming off a win over Murray, and Djokovic in the final who while in a mini slump had cruised to the final, was probably his hardest overall draw to win any slam.

None of his draws were easy, even if he was lucky not to play Fedal more often. Djokovic, Berdych, Nadal to win the Australian. Federer, Tsonga, Djokovic to win the French.
 
An interesting, somewhat related question is whether Roger's being a bad matchup for Stan has anything to do with their both being Swiss (i.e., a case of Stan looking up to his great countryman). It seems (at least to some extent) that Stan has a bit of a mental block when facing Roger that doesn't exist against other opponents. Of course, that isn't to say Roger's game doesn't present Stan with difficulties on its own, but I do wonder if shared national background plays some role.
 
daggerman said:
An interesting, somewhat related question is whether Roger's being a bad matchup for Stan has anything to do with their both being Swiss (i.e., a case of Stan looking up to his great countryman). It seems (at least to some extent) that Stan has a bit of a mental block when facing Roger that doesn't exist against other opponents. Of course, that isn't to say Roger's game doesn't present Stan with difficulties on its own, but I do wonder if shared national background plays some role.
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I don't think so. Stan still defeated Federer at MC 2009, MC 2014 and FO 2015.

Clay is pretty much the equalizer in their match-up. He stands a better chance against Roger on clay than on the other surfaces.
 
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