Is Wimbledon - US Open really the "easiest" double of the year?

[RaulRamirez]

This thread was inspired from another one, and I used the same data points as were used there.
(Too much time on my hands with no work today.)

Starting in 1988, here is a compilation of the most times players have won certain "pairs" of slams in the same year - with the following results, from most to least frequent:

W-US (11 times): 1989, 93, 95, 2004 thru 2007, 2010-11, 15, 18.
AO-W (8 times) : 1994 , 97, 2004, 06, 07, 11, 15, 17.
AO-US (6): 1988, 2004, 06, 07, 11, 15.
FO-US (4): 1999, 2010, 13, 17.
AO-FO (3): 1988, 1992, 2016
FO-W (3): 2008, 09, 10 (interesting distribution)

* By the way, the previous year's US Open winner has won the AO 9 times (Sampras, Agassi and Fed twice and Novak 3 times.) *

.........................................................

I'm not sure what meaning these numbers have, other than the French is harder to double with, but is this because it's the most grueling, the most unique or because (in part) because of the unique nature of its greatest champion (Rafa)?

Is Wimbledon-US the (relatively) easiest because there's a sensible time frame between them, and a well-defined hard court series of tourneys? Or, is it more due to the talents of Sampras, Fed and Djok?

 

[mike danny]

Well it has been done many many times, so probably. All the Big 3 have done it as well.

I used to believe AO-RG double is the toughest, but on closer inspection that is probably due to the top players ignoring the AO quite a lot in the past.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Interesting that no one has won AO-US without winning a third slam. (Besides Newcombe in 1973 but both were on grass and AO was in December)

 

[ABCD]

This thread was inspired from another one, and I used the same data points as were used there.
(Too much time on my hands with no work today.)

Starting in 1988, here is a compilation of the most times players have won certain "pairs" of slams in the same year - with the following results, from most to least frequent:

W-US (11 times): 1989, 93, 95, 2004 thru 2007, 2010-11, 15, 18.
AO-W (8 times) : 1994 , 97, 2004, 06, 07, 11, 15, 17.
AO-US (6): 1988, 2004, 06, 07, 11, 15.
FO-US (4): 1999, 2010, 13, 17.
AO-FO (3): 1988, 1992, 2016
FO-W (3): 2008, 09, 10 (interesting distribution)

* By the way, the previous year's US Open winner has won the AO 9 times (Sampras, Agassi and Fed twice and Novak 3 times.) *

.........................................................

I'm not sure what meaning these numbers have, other than the French is harder to double with, but is this because it's the most grueling, the most unique or because (in part) because of the unique nature of its greatest champion (Rafa)?

Is Wimbledon-US the (relatively) easiest because there's a sensible time frame between them, and a well-defined hard court series of tourneys? Or, is it more due to the talents of Sampras, Fed and Djok?

It probably reflects profile/quality of players. Djokovic and Federer are very good on hard and W, while Nadal is very good on clay, but not exactly same level on other surfaces. As they make 50% of your time frame, that was crucial for such distribution.

 

[Red Rick]

We could do some interesting statistical analysis on that.

Especially if you not only look at the doubles, but also how often they were part of a triple, how many different players achieved it and how they were performing compared to their average stats, fluctuations in opponents.

You can also look at association between results in all Slam pairs, even outside wins, and correlations of winning%.

Overall it's pretty clear that Roland Garros is the most different from the other Slams, which is why doubles including RG are the unlikeliest.

 

[RaulRamirez]

Well it has been done many many times, so probably. All the Big 3 have done it as well.

I used to believe AO-RG double is the toughest, but on closer inspection that is probably due to the top players ignoring the AO quite a lot in the past.

I was too lazy to trace this back to the start of the OE. But starting with 1988, wasn't there close to full participation (barring injuries)?
The counter may be that (I think) more FO champions have only won majors there.

 

[RaulRamirez]

Interesting that no one has won AO-US without winning a third slam. (Besides Newcombe in 1973 but both were on grass and AO was in December)

I hadn't noticed, but yes...good one! (Of course, Wilander (1); Fed (3); Novak (2).)

 

[lud]

Interesting that no one has won AO-US without winning a third slam. (Besides Newcombe in 1973 but both were on grass and AO was in December)

Great spot. Very good.

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

I hadn't noticed, but yes...good one! (Of course, Wilander (1); Fed (3); Novak (2).)

Great spot. Very good.

I had been thinking about that occurrence even before this thread. The only same surface double yet it hasn't happened without a third one..

 

[MeatTornado]

No big surprise. Besides the Channel Slam, they're the closest together. I think it's less than 2 months now.

And until recently, they're the two that resembled each other most in term of court speed.

 

[RaulRamirez]

No big surprise. Besides the Channel Slam, they're the closest together. I think it's less than 2 months now.

And until recently, they're the two that resembled each other most in term of court speed.

Correct. I think there's an almost ideal amount of time (and some good HC tourneys) to prepare for it.

 

[Towny]

For many reasons, RG is less likely to be included in a 'double'. It's more different from the other slams than they are from each other to start with. The 90s had a host of clay specialists who won very little elsewhere. Plus the best player, Sampras, was not very strong at RG. Then you have the 2000s/2010s where Nadal has basically locked everyone else out of RG. So unless he's winning the double himself, it's very rarely going to happen. He has of course had Fedovic who have blocked him from various combinations over the years.

Of the remaining, I think it's largely the proximity of Wimbledon to the USO. They're not too dissimilar (unlike RG-Wim) and they're close enough to each other that if you're in good form, you could get both before your form fades. AO is early enough in the year that one's form may have diminished by Wim/USO

 

[RaulRamirez]

For many reasons, RG is less likely to be included in a 'double'. It's more different from the other slams than they are from each other to start with. The 90s had a host of clay specialists who won very little elsewhere. Plus the best player, Sampras, was not very strong at RG. Then you have the 2000s/2010s where Nadal has basically locked everyone else out of RG. So unless he's winning the double himself, it's very rarely going to happen. He has of course had Fedovic who have blocked him from various combinations over the years.

Of the remaining, I think it's largely the proximity of Wimbledon to the USO. They're not too dissimilar (unlike RG-Wim) and they're close enough to each other that if you're in good form, you could get both before your form fades. AO is early enough in the year that one's form may have diminished by Wim/USO

All good points.

 

[3lite]

For many reasons, RG is less likely to be included in a 'double'. It's more different from the other slams than they are from each other to start with. The 90s had a host of clay specialists who won very little elsewhere. Plus the best player, Sampras, was not very strong at RG. Then you have the 2000s/2010s where Nadal has basically locked everyone else out of RG. So unless he's winning the double himself, it's very rarely going to happen. He has of course had Fedovic who have blocked him from various combinations over the years.

Of the remaining, I think it's largely the proximity of Wimbledon to the USO. They're not too dissimilar (unlike RG-Wim) and they're close enough to each other that if you're in good form, you could get both before your form fades. AO is early enough in the year that one's form may have diminished by Wim/USO

RG is never included as a 'double' simply because Nadal exists.

 

[Towny]

RG is never included as a 'double' simply because Nadal exists.

It is if Nadal's the one winning it

 

[BGod]

Borg did what Fed & Nadal did combined in 3 consecutive seasons.

Anywho you just look at the guys and Sampras-Federer-Novak seriously skew the numbers for WMB-USO.

The FO-WMB is objectively hardest for obvious reasons but AO-USO has the big gap.

They all require all-time status. But something about AO-FO. Novak and Courier only guys to do it in 30 years on hard (Wilander on grass in 88).

 

[Sport]

The hardest duo, by far, is RG-WB. Most different conditions of play.

 

[RaulRamirez]

RG is never included as a 'double' simply because Nadal exists.

But, still Rafa is one of only 4 guys to have 4 or more years of winning two or more slams in the Open Era. Pete, Novak and Rafa four times, and Roger 5 times.

(Correction: 6 times for Roger.)

 

[lud]

RG-USO is extremely rare.
Agassi '99 is one I can think of. And ofc. Nadal in '10.

 

[Sport]

RG-USO is extremely rare.
Agassi '99 is one I can think of. And ofc. Nadal in '10.

Don't forget 2013 and 2017.

 

[RaulRamirez]

Last stat of the day: Triple slam years, excluding Laver in 1969, or just add one to each possible trifecta. I hope I didn't exclude any.

AO, FO, US - 1988
AO, W, US - 1974, 2004, 06, 07, 11, 15.
FO, W, US - 2010

Since Laver, nobody has won AO, FO, W in a calendar year.

 

[BGod]

But, still Rafa is one of only 4 guys to have 4 or more years of winning two or more slams in the Open Era. Pete, Novak and Rafa four times, and Roger 5 timrs.

Roger 6 times. 04-07, 09, 17.

 

[RaulRamirez]

Roger 6 times. 04-07, 09, 17.

Good catch...I either forgot '17 or got distracted.

 

[serveandvolley_]

This thread was inspired from another one, and I used the same data points as were used there.
(Too much time on my hands with no work today.)

Starting in 1988, here is a compilation of the most times players have won certain "pairs" of slams in the same year - with the following results, from most to least frequent:

W-US (11 times): 1989, 93, 95, 2004 thru 2007, 2010-11, 15, 18.
AO-W (8 times) : 1994 , 97, 2004, 06, 07, 11, 15, 17.
AO-US (6): 1988, 2004, 06, 07, 11, 15.
FO-US (4): 1999, 2010, 13, 17.
AO-FO (3): 1988, 1992, 2016
FO-W (3): 2008, 09, 10 (interesting distribution)

* By the way, the previous year's US Open winner has won the AO 9 times (Sampras, Agassi and Fed twice and Novak 3 times.) *

.........................................................

I'm not sure what meaning these numbers have, other than the French is harder to double with, but is this because it's the most grueling, the most unique or because (in part) because of the unique nature of its greatest champion (Rafa)?

Is Wimbledon-US the (relatively) easiest because there's a sensible time frame between them, and a well-defined hard court series of tourneys? Or, is it more due to the talents of Sampras, Fed and Djok?

Similarly for WTA

FO-US (11 times): 1988, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2013
W-US (10 times): 1988, 1989, 1993, 1995, 1996, 1997, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2012
AO-W (8 times): 1988, 1989, 1997, 2003, 2006, 2009, 2010, 2015
AO-US (6 times): 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1997, 2016
FO-W (6 times): 1988, 1993, 1995, 1996, 2002, 2015
AO-FO (5 times): 1988, 1991, 1992, 2001, 2015

 

[SecondServeAce]

Probably. Maybe players are mentally/physically burned out by USO time

 

[NoleFam]

RG-USO is extremely rare.
Agassi '99 is one I can think of. And ofc. Nadal in '10.

Wilander in '88 (AO, RG, USO)
Lendl in '86, '87 (RG, USO)

 

[NoleFam]

I think Wimbledon/USO is the easiest double to do in a year and it's been done 30 times in the history of the game. In comparison, RG/W has been done 12 times, AO/RG has been done 8 times, AO/W has been done 16 times, AO/USO has been done 11 times, and RG/USO has been done 11 times. (This excludes Laver and Budge's CYGS.)

I think it's been done the most mainly because of the momentum of winning the most prestigious title in the game, Wimbledon. Once players win that title, I feel they are on a high and just use that momentum to carry them to the USO title two months later. It's also not so close together like RG/W where they don't have much time to process everything and then recover, on top of being vastly different conditions, and it's not too far apart like AO and RG where form can see larger changes in 4 months time compared to 2 months.

Another thing is Wimbledon is/was known as being faster conditions and the USO was known for being faster conditions as well (whether it was grass or hardcourt) and players can adapt from Wimbledon to USO pretty easily, especially players who love those conditions. The Wimbledon/USO was done 16 times on grass and 14 times on grass/hardcourt.

 

[BGod]

I think Wimbledon/USO is the easiest double to do in a year and it's been done 30 times in the history of the game. In comparison, RG/W has been done 12 times, AO/RG has been done 8 times, AO/W has been done 16 times, AO/USO has been done 11 times, and RG/USO has been done 11 times. (This excludes Laver and Budge's CYGS.)

I think it's been done the most mainly because of the momentum of winning the most prestigious title in the game, Wimbledon. Once players win that title, I feel they are on a high and just use that momentum to carry them to the USO title two months later. It's also not so close together like RG/W where they don't have much time to process everything and then recover, on top of being vastly different conditions, and it's not too far apart like AO and RG where form can see larger changes in 4 months time compared to 2 months.

Another thing is Wimbledon is/was known as being faster conditions and the USO was known for being faster conditions as well (whether it was grass or hardcourt) and players can adapt from Wimbledon to USO pretty easily, especially players who love those conditions. The Wimbledon/USO was done 16 times on grass and 14 times on grass/hardcourt.

The WMB-USO since Laver has been done by:
Connors
McEnroe
Becker
Sampras
Federer
Nadal
Djokovic

RG-WMB:
Borg
Nadal
Federer

AO-RG:
Wilander
Courier
Djokovic

RG-USO:
Vilas
Lendl
Wilander
Agassi
Nadal

AO-USO:
Wilander
Federer
Djokovic

AO-WMB:
Sampras
Federer
Djokovic



When you factor AO prestige prior to mid 80s though......

 

[NoleFam]

The WMB-USO since Laver has been done by:
Connors
McEnroe
Becker
Sampras
Federer
Nadal
Djokovic

RG-WMB:
Borg
Nadal
Federer

AO-RG:
Wilander
Courier
Djokovic

RG-USO:
Vilas
Lendl
Wilander
Agassi
Nadal

AO-USO:
Wilander
Federer
Djokovic

AO-WMB:
Sampras
Federer
Djokovic



When you factor AO prestige prior to mid 80s though......

The W/USO double has been done multiple times by Connors, McEnroe, Sampras, Federer and Djokovic though. When you add in the total times since Laver it was 14 times. How many times was the RG/W double done since Laver? 6 times. AO/RG? 3 times. RG/USO? 7 times. AO/USO? 8 times. AO/W? 9 times. This still says the W/USO is the easiest double to accomplish.

 

[Azure]

This may be owing to a couple of reasons -

1. USO was a fast surface, not the slow surface we see now. Naturally, Wimbledon, which was/is a fast surface was translating the winners onto the USO courts.

2. A lot of the winners in the past were Americans. USO was their home ground so to speak and they accorded very high importance to winning there. Wimbledon of course is still the most decorated slam of the season. Naturally, the wins at these two slams were important. As the game shifted towards European tennis, the natural happened - clay once again became an important surface. Nadal, Fed and Nole are incredible clay courters. We will require a greater time frame to judge the effects of geographical origins of the players and how that affects which slams they prioritize. If the game moves towards more Asians ranked in the sport, I would not be surprised to see more of AO-Wimbledon doubles.

It will be very interesting to note how doubles players have historically had this double.