Is Zverev the best player to never win a slam?

[TheNachoMan]

At least statistically, there’s an argument.

2 YECs
Olympic gold medal
5 Masters
Been #2 in the world
20 titles won overall

I would probably rate guys like Nalbandian and Tsonga higher, but they didn’t win as much.

 

[mike danny]

USO 2020 should answer your question

 

[ActualTennisPlayer]

Would be interesting to compare the performance of nalbandian and tsonga vs zverev at slams

 

[Wurm]

Would be interesting to compare the performance of nalbandian and tsonga vs zverev at slams

Actual performance level produce is something I'll have to leave to someone else but we can at least take a superficial look at their deep slam runs:

Tsonga - 1 final lost to Novak at the AO in 08, 5 further semis, 9 further quarters.

SF losses were to Fed (10 AO), Novak (11 W), Murray (12 W), Ferrer (13 FO) and Stan (15 FO).
QF losses were to Verdasco (09 AO), Murray (10 W), Fed (11 USO), Novak (12 FO), Fed (13 AO), Murray (16 W), Novak (16 USO and, Stan (17 AO).

Nalbandian - 1 final lost to Hewitt at Wimbledon in 02, 4 further semis, 5 further quarters.

SF losses were to Roddick (03 USO), Gaston Gaudio (04 FO), Baghdatis (06 AO) and Fed (06 FO).
QF losses were to Rainer Schuttler (03 AO), Fed (04 AO), Hewitt (05 AO), Thomas Johansson (05 W) and Fed (05 USO).

Tsonga had rougher competition to deal with. Nalbandian had more injury problems that curtailed his career.

Both of them got a couple of Masters, Nalbandian picked up a WTF title too. You'd expect Nalbandian to have a better tail on his career without the injuries but I don't think a slam win was particularly on the cards given the era that had come along (that 07 Masters looks better now than it did at the time...).

Zverev - currently at 1 final lost to Thiem (painfully...) at the 20 USO, 5 further semis, 4 further quarters.

SF losses to Thiem (20 AO), Tsitsipas (21 FO), Novak (21 USO), Rafa (22 FO... the one where the knee popped out) and Ruud (23 FO).
QF losses to Thiem (18 FO), Novak (19 FO), Novak (21 AO) and Alcaraz (23 USO).

He's up to 5 Masters titles and two WTF titles.

 

[Cerdany]

LOL. No. Not even close.

 

[NeutralFan]

Some will come and say Muh Davy, and bring his BO3 wins and ignore how he did absolutely Zilch in Slams.

 

[Sputnik Bulgorov]

Something interesting about Nalbandian is he accomplished everything by 2006. He was only 24 at the time. After which, he was derailed by injuries, and he stopped taking his fitness seriously towards the second half of his career. He was a remarkably talented player.

 

[ibbi]

Statistically, yes, it's tough to argue with. Beyond that? I wouldn't say so, no. I'd go with Mecir.

 

[RS]

I think we had this thread last year or 2 years ago

 

[DIMI_D]

At least statistically, there’s an argument.

2 YECs
Olympic gold medal
5 Masters
Been #2 in the world
20 titles won overall

I would probably rate guys like Nalbandian and Tsonga higher, but they didn’t win as much.

Statistically yes with all his accomplishments but as a player I would say there is def a few better players - Rios comes to mind straight away

 

[NeutralFan]

I think we had this thread last year or 2 years ago

Yeah but Z needs to be recognised for his BO3 achievements.

 

[UnforcedTerror]

Clearly yest. He got unlucky when he was most ready. I think he would have won USO 2022.

 

[nolefam_2024]

At least statistically, there’s an argument.

2 YECs
Olympic gold medal
5 Masters
Been #2 in the world
20 titles won overall

I would probably rate guys like Nalbandian and Tsonga higher, but they didn’t win as much.

What number 2 in the world. Last year rankings are all sham. They banned the goat and he dropped out of the ranking fast. Then Medvedev was injured. Zverev as number 2? I was shocked when I even read it. Saw when he was ranked number 2 and all the surprise went away. This guy has no business being ranked number 2. He was NOT real number 2. He is the loser.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Zverev doesn't deserve his high ranking. Tsitsipas doesn't deserve his high ranking. Ruud doesn't deserve his high ranking. Don't bring 2022 ranking to any argument.

 

[dking68]

Clearly yest. He got unlucky when he was most ready. I think he would have won USO 2022.

If he had played Raz in a quarter or semi sure. But if he played Raz in a final, I truly believe he would’ve lost

 

[Terenigma]

Personally for me, He is.

There is no denying what he's achieved so far and unless you've got some serious delusional nostalgia, he is a better player than names like Nalbandian or Ferrer or even Berdych and most of the other names that might come up in this comparison. Also I don't think it's just his achievements that puts him ahead too, he's a pretty damn good tennis player when you watch him, he has a good serve and a pretty well rounded game.

It's honestly a shame he lost the 2020 US open, I think that was a very winnable match for him and might have given him the confidence to go on and win more but now he's sorta stuck in limbo, he still has a fair few years left in him though and I still believe he'll get a slam.

 

[ActualTennisPlayer]

Actual performance level produce is something I'll have to leave to someone else but we can at least take a superficial look at their deep slam runs:

Tsonga - 1 final lost to Novak at the AO in 08, 5 further semis, 9 further quarters.

SF losses were to Fed (10 AO), Novak (11 W), Murray (12 W), Ferrer (13 FO) and Stan (15 FO).
QF losses were to Verdasco (09 AO), Murray (10 W), Fed (11 USO), Novak (12 FO), Fed (13 AO), Murray (16 W), Novak (16 USO and, Stan (17 AO).

Nalbandian - 1 final lost to Hewitt at Wimbledon in 02, 4 further semis, 5 further quarters.

SF losses were to Roddick (03 USO), Gaston Gaudio (04 FO), Baghdatis (06 AO) and Fed (06 FO).
QF losses were to Rainer Schuttler (03 AO), Fed (04 AO), Hewitt (05 AO), Thomas Johansson (05 W) and Fed (05 USO).

Tsonga had rougher competition to deal with. Nalbandian had more injury problems that curtailed his career.

Both of them got a couple of Masters, Nalbandian picked up a WTF title too. You'd expect Nalbandian to have a better tail on his career without the injuries but I don't think a slam win was particularly on the cards given the era that had come along (that 07 Masters looks better now than it did at the time...).

Zverev - currently at 1 final lost to Thiem (painfully...) at the 20 USO, 5 further semis, 4 further quarters.

SF losses to Thiem (20 AO), Tsitsipas (21 FO), Novak (21 USO), Rafa (22 FO... the one where the knee popped out) and Ruud (23 FO).
QF losses to Thiem (18 FO), Novak (19 FO), Novak (21 AO) and Alcaraz (23 USO).

He's up to 5 Masters titles and two WTF titles.

Thanks from achievements it seems like tsonga>zverev>nalbandian.
I personally don’t like to judge competition, but I think most commentators will say tsonga>zverev=nalbandian

Of course zverev should still have 6 good tennis years so I can imagine he will overtake tsonga’s achievement.

However what hurts zverev are his losses to top 10 players in slams. How do the other two fare there?

Finally, I posted that in another zverev thread. I think the reason for his underperformance in best of 5 matches is his diabetes. My gut feeling tells me he is the best best of 3 player to never win a slam but not the best best of 5 player to never win a slam.

 

[Beerus]

Miloslav Mecir.

 

[SonnyT]

How many clay court specialists didn't win RG due to Borg and Nadal?

I could think of only one, Ferrer.

 

[Hitman]

Yes, he is. I can't really see a stronger case for anyone else, considering how well he has performed outside the slams.

The guy has some serious hardware outside of the slams, including 2 YEC and Olympic Gold

 

[Djokovic_is_the_best#1]

I think he is to be honest!

 

[canta_Brian]

What number 2 in the world. Last year rankings are all sham. They banned the goat and he dropped out of the ranking fast. Then Medvedev was injured. Zverev as number 2? I was shocked when I even read it. Saw when he was ranked number 2 and all the surprise went away. This guy has no business being ranked number 2. He was NOT real number 2. He is the loser.

No way. You’re a Djokovic fan? I’d never have guessed. I mean, it’s not like you try and make every single thread about the guy.

“Thread: what’s your favourite pizza topping?”

You: Novak doesn’t eat gluten that’s part of how he became the goat.

Maybe give it a rest now and then. Especially as everyone knows Djok is only a weak era vulture.

 

[nolefam_2024]

No way. You’re a Djokovic fan? I’d never have guessed. I mean, it’s not like you try and make every single thread about the guy.

“Thread: what’s your favourite pizza topping?”

You: Novak doesn’t eat gluten that’s part of how he became the goat.

Maybe give it a rest now and then. Especially as everyone knows Djok is only a weak era vulture.

Hey fan of balding players we don't care what you think. Our guy is soon to be new number 1 and we will relish these moments.

 

[Olli Jokinen]

Zverev doesn't deserve his high ranking. Tsitsipas doesn't deserve his high ranking. Ruud doesn't deserve his high ranking. Don't bring 2022 ranking to any argument.

Who should be ahead of Zverev in 2023 then?

 

[nolefam_2024]

Who should be ahead of Zverev in 2023 then?

2023 or 2022?

 

[Olli Jokinen]

Hey fan of balding players we don't care what you think. Our guy is soon to be new number 1 and we will relish these moments.

It's only tennis. Take it easy.

 

[SonnyT]

In 2004, the first year that Federer won WB, the 2-5 ranked players were Roddick, Moya, Hewitt and Henman. I'd argue that bunch could be grouped together with Zverev and Tsit as harmless. Certainly Med is above them.

 

[Olli Jokinen]

2023 or 2022?

Didn't you mean 2023?

 

[Chanwan]

At least statistically, there’s an argument.

2 YECs
Olympic gold medal
5 Masters
Been #2 in the world
20 titles won overall

I would probably rate guys like Nalbandian and Tsonga higher, but they didn’t win as much.

Let me ask you this: what's Z's record vs top-10'ers in slams? Gotta be able to beat the best in order to be the best.

He hasn't been.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Didn't you mean 2023?

Zverev high ranking of number 2 happened in 2022. Those are sham rankings. If you ban the best ever, all others will automatically rank higher.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Only statistically, 'cause his slam level was never that high. Tanner had the highest slam level among non-winners I think, competing well with prime Borg and Connors at WB and USO. If we don't count 1970-82 AO as a true slam, then it's certainly Gerulaitis. (If you don't count amateur slams, Roche is also up there.)

 

[junior74]

But I think we agree slams are something different than "the rest" of the tournaments.

BO5 is not for everyone.

Zed has reached one slam final. Rather unimpressive.

 

[Shaolin]

Rios

 

[nolefam_2024]

Zverev is absolute choker. He has a good serve which occasionally can be great. But can be worse than average players as well.

NONE of his matches were ever easy. Because he is not good enough. Watch any Zverev match and you will see the cracks between his best and his worst immediately. The constant bad spells during a set leaves him tired physically at 6'6 and emotionally to have energy at the end of a slam.

His biggest match in his life was USOpen 2020 final. He reached the final under the shadows of a DQ and still choked the match away as soon as he was winning. His run to the final was like this.

Near retirement unseeded Anderson
WC Nakashima
32 ranked Mannarino
Unseeded young ADF
10th seeded Rublev in QF
20th ranked PCB.

Even his best result was due to sheer freak luck. He beat no one of recognition. Otherwise he would be depleted by R4.

 

[James P]

Looking at the GOAT list on UTS (https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/goatList), the top players in order are:

David Ferrer 124
Tom Okker 123
Alexander Zverev 114
Tony Roche 95
Tomas Berdych 84
Brian Gottfried 80
Stefanos Tsitsipas 79
Marcelo Rios 78
Nikolay Davydenko 77
Harold Solomon 73

 

[TheNachoMan]

Looking at the GOAT list on UTS (https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/goatList), the top players in order are:

David Ferrer 124
Tom Okker 123
Alexander Zverev 114
Tony Roche 95
Tomas Berdych 84
Brian Gottfried 80
Stefanos Tsitsipas 79
Marcelo Rios 78
Nikolay Davydenko 77
Harold Solomon 73

Ferrer being #1 is strange. Did anyone ever expect him to win a slam? Zverev, Berdych, Rios were all genuine contenders at slams.

 

[Chanwan]

Ferrer being #1 is strange. Did anyone ever expect him to win a slam? Zverev, Berdych, Rios were all genuine contenders at slams.

Z was a contender at two slams at best, the free run to the US Open final plus the semi vs Rafa (where he "almost" had him)

Ferrer has also beaten actual opposition at slams waaaaaayyyy more often than Z, who's lived his life as a best of 3 pony

 

[ibbi]

Only statistically, 'cause his slam level was never that high. Tanner had the highest slam level among non-winners I think, competing well with prime Borg and Connors at WB and USO. If we don't count 1970-82 AO as a true slam, then it's certainly Gerulaitis. (If you don't count amateur slams, Roche is also up there.)

Roscoe won one of those 1970-82 AO's too

 

[Shaolin]

Looking at the GOAT list on UTS (https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/goatList), the top players in order are:

David Ferrer 124
Tom Okker 123
Alexander Zverev 114
Tony Roche 95
Tomas Berdych 84
Brian Gottfried 80
Stefanos Tsitsipas 79
Marcelo Rios 78
Nikolay Davydenko 77
Harold Solomon 73

Stats don't tell the whole story.

Ferrer was a career lapdog that rolled over and fetched the newspaper for any top seed. He had a great career but was never a threat to win a slam.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Ferret had no chance.

 

[TsitsiBH]

Tsonga has 13 wins over top10 players at Grand Slams while Zverev only has 2

 

[Im(moral) Winner]

Trophy wise maybe but he hasn't done that much at slams/bo5s when talking about quality wins. Only 2 top 10 wins (Alcaraz RG 2022 and Sinner USO 2023)

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Roscoe won one of those 1970-82 AO's too

Ha, right. Slipped my mind there. Not sure who it has to be then, maybe Curren given his wins over Lendl/Connors/McEnroe and sort of competitive four-set losses to Wilander/Becker in the finals. Can't vote for Mecir who got rekt by Lendl in both of his slam finals.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Zverev is absolute choker. He has a good serve which occasionally can be great. But can be worse than average players as well.

NONE of his matches were ever easy. Because he is not good enough. Watch any Zverev match and you will see the cracks between his best and his worst immediately. The constant bad spells during a set leaves him tired physically at 6'6 and emotionally to have energy at the end of a slam.

His biggest match in his life was USOpen 2020 final. He reached the final under the shadows of a DQ and still choked the match away as soon as he was winning. His run to the final was like this.

Near retirement unseeded Anderson
WC Nakashima
32 ranked Mannarino
Unseeded young ADF
10th seeded Rublev in QF
20th ranked PCB.

Even his best result was due to sheer freak luck. He beat no one of recognition. Otherwise he would be depleted by R4.

Played Coric in QF, not Rublev. Was a bad who-can-choke-more pushfest.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Played Coric in QF, not Rublev. Was a bad who-can-choke-more pushfest.

Wow. So his draw completely fell off. Seems right for this mug.

 

[Snafu23]

With two top ten wins in Slams at age 26 absolutely not. He's possibly an ATG for best of 3 though.

 

[martinezownsclay]

Statistically probably. Playing level, overall talent, or overall worthiness by any varied definition wise hell no.

 

[martinezownsclay]

USO 2020 should answer your question

Yes that was pathetic, and for that alone he doesn't deserve to win a slam. He outchoked the ultimate big match choker (Thiem) from a total lopsided winning position, on a day Thiem was playing like 50% of his capacity at best, even when he made his comeback. It made Medvedev's fiasco vs Nadal at the Australian final look good by comparision.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Statistically yes.

Depends on what your parameter is. In terms of ranking it is Ríos as he is the only #1 without a slam, in terms of talent it's probably Nalbandian, in terms of slam performances it's probably Soderling, in terms of overall titles I think it's Ferrer.

But overall, just looking at numbers in a career it's gotta be him. 5 M1000, 2 YEC and an Olympic Gold is huge. It's even more than what Murray did back when he was considered by far the best player ever without a slam until he won it. With the difference Zverev always underachieved at slams and Murray was doing great at slams until the final.

 

[NYTennisfan]

Tsonga was blocked by The Golden Generation. Poor guy had to contend with Peak Nadal and Djokovic and Prime Fed then you have Peak Murray and Stan. He wins a couple of slams in any other era IMO.