isnt 2011 the Goat/peak season?

[Ace7]

i dont really see how people think that Djokovic didnt have the highest peak ever based on that season alone ?

He was 10 - 1 against Fedal both didnt have any excuses since Rafa was 24/25 years old coming from his best season ever in 2010 and playing crazy well in 2011.

Federer was 29/30 playing a really high level proven how hard he pushed Djokovic and beating him on clay at RG 11 in his best clay match ever next to Rome 2006.
also the age excuse sounds even more strange if you look at other sports in terms of prime performance due to age, in football alone i could tell you so many players even peaking !! in that age. Wawrinka and Djokovic are also examples having peak seasons aged 28 - 30.

there ist not a single season where one of the Big 3 dominated his other 2 GOAT candidates besides 2011.

discuss.

 

[jl809]

• Highest peak season doesn’t necessarily = highest peak
• If we don’t want to talk about hypotheticals and instead we go off numbers alone, as Djokovic fans are constantly telling us to these days, 2006 Fed was a higher peak season
• If we do want to go off hypotheticals, 2006 Fed would have beaten 2011 Djoker at 2 slams and the YEC

Now is it “a” GOAT season? Yes for sure, 10-1 is an incredible feat, especially including 2 wins over a prime Nadal on clay and beating Fedal B2B in a slam

 

[Towny]

there ist not a single season where one of the Big 3 dominated his other 2 GOAT candidates besides 2011.

Nadal went 4-0 against Federer and 4-2 against Djokovic in 2008. He went 3-0 in total against both in slams

 

[travlerajm]

Problem with 2011 is that it felt at the time that Djokovic’s time had arrived due to attrition. Felt like Fed and Rafa had both regressed, and he stepped up to fill the void.

This take is controversial, but I’m going to put Djokovic 2023 up there as his most impressive season. He may not be in his physically peak prime, and yeah the competition is weak, but he’s more polished and savvy and less likely to lose when it matters. In fact, I’m gonna say that Alcaraz got lucky to beat him at W, with Djok making a rare technical miscue by wearing an ill-advised thigh wrap that messed up his timing. Djoker was a few points away from winning all 4.

 

[Lauren_Girl']

i dont really see how people think that Djokovic didnt have the highest peak ever based on that season alone ?

He was 10 - 1 against Fedal both didnt have any excuses since Rafa was 24/25 years old coming from his best season ever in 2010 and playing crazy well in 2011.

Federer was 29/30 playing a really high level proven how hard he pushed Djokovic and beating him on clay at RG 11 in his best clay match ever next to Rome 2006.
also the age excuse sounds even more strange if you look at other sports in terms of prime performance due to age, in football alone i could tell you so many players even peaking !! in that age. Wawrinka and Djokovic are also examples having peak seasons aged 28 - 30.

there ist not a single season where one of the Big 3 dominated his other 2 GOAT candidates besides 2011.

discuss.

I mostly agree with this. The only issue I have with 2011 is the end of his season. Bagelled by Nishikori in Basel and some very ugly matches against Tsonga and Ferrer in indoors, including a RR exit in London and a breadstick against Ferrer. Also withdrew against Delpo in Davis Cup. 2011 is indeed one of the best seasons in history but he completely sabotaged the last couple of months. The best season ever has to be exceptionnal from January to November. I still rank 2015 and Federer's 2006 higher than 2011. But yeah, 2011 Fedal was the greatest competition one could think of. They were still young and no major injury and he won 9 out of 10 against them.

 

[BorgTheGOAT]

I mostly agree with this. The only issue I have with 2011 is the end of his season. Bagelled by Nishikori in Basel and some very ugly matches against Tsonga and Ferrer in indoors, including a RR exit in London and a breadstick against Ferrer. Also withdrew against Delpo in Davis Cup. 2011 is indeed one of the best seasons in history but he completely sabotaged the last couple of months. The best season ever has to be exceptionnal from January to November. I still rank 2015 and Federer's 2006 higher than 2011. But yeah, 2011 Fedal was the greatest competition one could think of. They were still young and no major injury and he won 9 out of 10 against them.

Since he messed it up during the end, I would still say Mac 84 was greater. Even with one less slam (considering that AO was still not fully legit) a 82-3 record is hard to argue against. Connors and Lendl also do not fall much behind Nadal and Fed in 2011 competition-wise.

 

[Ace7]

I mostly agree with this. The only issue I have with 2011 is the end of his season. Bagelled by Nishikori in Basel and some very ugly matches against Tsonga and Ferrer in indoors, including a RR exit in London and a breadstick against Ferrer. Also withdrew against Delpo in Davis Cup. 2011 is indeed one of the best seasons in history but he completely sabotaged the last couple of months. The best season ever has to be exceptionnal from January to November. I still rank 2015 and Federer's 2006 higher than 2011. But yeah, 2011 Fedal was the greatest competition one could think of. They were still young and no major injury and he won 9 out of 10 against them.

true that the end of the year sucked pretty bad, sadly injuries played a role in that but still if he won the atp finals there it would be even craizer. In terms of achievements yes 2015 ist the best season ever in my opinion. but the competition in 2011 just pushes it a little higher than 2015 just in my personal opinion.

 

[Ace7]

Nadal went 4-0 against Federer and 4-2 against Djokovic in 2008. He went 3-0 in total against both in slams

full respect for Nadal on that ! if he had done something similar on hard that year it would be the GOAT season for sure.

 

[InsuranceMan]

Problem with 2011 is that it felt at the time that Djokovic’s time had arrived due to attrition. Felt like Fed and Rafa had both regressed, and he stepped up to fill the void.

This take is controversial, but I’m going to put Djokovic 2023 up there as his most impressive season. He may not be in his physically peak prime, and yeah the competition is weak, but he’s more polished and savvy and less likely to lose when it matters. In fact, I’m gonna say that Alcaraz got lucky to beat him at W, with Djok making a rare technical miscue by wearing an ill-advised thigh wrap that messed up his timing. Djoker was a few points away from winning all 4.

Also you don’t fluke winning a five set match on Centre Court in the finals against a GOAT. That wasn’t luck.

 

[nolefam_2024]

2011 is one of the seasons in our GOATs life. Just like 2006 for Federer, it has it's moments.

What is unique about 2011 is the absolute 6-0 record vs his rival Nadal. This season is already in top 10 open era season. But the post USOpen series is really problematic for his seasons claim to be GOAT.

I think 2011 is ahead of Nadal's any season and Federer's any season except 2006. But Djokovic went 62-2 until USOpen. That was the most dominating run until that time.

 

[thrust]

i dont really see how people think that Djokovic didnt have the highest peak ever based on that season alone ?

He was 10 - 1 against Fedal both didnt have any excuses since Rafa was 24/25 years old coming from his best season ever in 2010 and playing crazy well in 2011.

Federer was 29/30 playing a really high level proven how hard he pushed Djokovic and beating him on clay at RG 11 in his best clay match ever next to Rome 2006.
also the age excuse sounds even more strange if you look at other sportsI in terms of prime performance due to age, in football alone i could tell you so many players even peaking !! in that age. Wawrinka and Djokovic are also examples having peak seasons aged 28 - 30.

there ist not a single season where one of the Big 3 dominated his other 2 GOAT candidates besides 2011.

discuss.

I AGREE!

 

[pirhaksar]

I think it’s probably up there with the Fed peak season. Which season you pick depends on whose fan you are.

 

[Ace7]

2011 is one of the seasons in our GOATs life. Just like 2006 for Federer, it has it's moments.

What is unique about 2011 is the absolute 6-0 record vs his rival Nadal. This season is already in top 10 open era season. But the post USOpen series is really problematic for his seasons claim to be GOAT.

I think 2011 is ahead of Nadal's any season and Federer's any season except 2006. But Djokovic went 62-2 until USOpen. That was the most dominating run until that time.

Federer going 92 - 5 in 2006 is insane its as simple as that. but if we take a closer look at the competition it just doesnt cut it for me in the end as crazy as it was.

looking at semi + finals only.

AO Open - Kiefer ranked 25 + Baghdatis ranked 56
WIM - Bjorkman ranked 59 + Nadal ranked 2 ( Rafa reaching his first Wimbledon final even in his book he said he was just happy being there never expecting to win it. )
US Open - Davydenko ranked 6 + Roddick ranked 10 ( nothing crazy to be honest )

IW - srichapan ranked 61 + Blake ranked 14
Miami - Ferrer ranked 9 + Ljubicic ranked 6
Madrid - nalbandian ranked 4 + Gonzalez ranked 10
Canada - gonzalez ranked 16 + Gasquet ranked 51

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Mac's 1984 above all. Peak dominance with good opponents (Lendl 7-1, Connors 6-0, Wilander 3-0).

 

[Razer]

• Highest peak season doesn’t necessarily = highest peak

Driving a Car on an empty deserted Road at top speed does not mean you are a better driver than the one who drives the same car at a slightly lower top speed but on a busy road.

If 2011 is the goat season then that automatically explains why Djokovic is on 24 slams today, only a guy who dominated that season so much could have reached this far, it is destiny.

Federer destroying garbage rivals in 04-07 did not make him retire as goat.

 

[jl809]

Driving a Car on an empty deserted Road at top speed does not mean you are a better driver than the one who drives the same car at a slightly lower top speed but on a busy road.

If 2011 is the goat season then that automatically explains why Djokovic is on 24 slams today, only a guy who dominated that season so much could have reached this far, it is destiny.

Federer destroying garbage rivals in 04-07 did not make him retire as goat.

What about Mac’s 84 though?

 

[pirhaksar]

Driving a Car on an empty deserted Road at top speed does not mean you are a better driver than the one who drives the same car at a slightly lower top speed but on a busy road.

If 2011 is the goat season then that automatically explains why Djokovic is on 24 slams today, only a guy who dominated that season so much could have reached this far, it is destiny.

Federer destroying garbage rivals in 04-07 did not make him retire as goat.

lol very creative analogy…don’t necessarily agree with the conclusion but still clever

 

[thrust]

What about Mac’s 84 though?

Most, it seems to me, rank: Novak, Rafa and Roger the top 3 of the open era, therefore, for Novak to dominate them so much while still in their prime is a bit better than McEnroe's 84

 

[Neptune]

Nole 2015 > Fed 2006 no matter how you look.

12-month 2015Wimb to 16FO: Hold all 4 slams (3 surfaces), YEC, 5 masters (plus 3 runner ups) to go with 16 top5 and 31 top10(average Elo 2310) wins is absolute highest peak (feel free to find comparison).

 

[itrium84]

i dont really see how people think that Djokovic didnt have the highest peak ever based on that season alone ?

He was 10 - 1 against Fedal both didnt have any excuses since Rafa was 24/25 years old coming from his best season ever in 2010 and playing crazy well in 2011.

Federer was 29/30 playing a really high level proven how hard he pushed Djokovic and beating him on clay at RG 11 in his best clay match ever next to Rome 2006.
also the age excuse sounds even more strange if you look at other sports in terms of prime performance due to age, in football alone i could tell you so many players even peaking !! in that age. Wawrinka and Djokovic are also examples having peak seasons aged 28 - 30.

there ist not a single season where one of the Big 3 dominated his other 2 GOAT candidates besides 2011.

discuss.

Rafa was on his absolute peak in that period, he was basically unbeatable, only peak Novak was able to stop him.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Rafa was on his absolute peak in that period, he was basically unbeatable, only peak Novak was able to stop him.

Let's say things more deliberately otherwise we might be called liars.

Nadal's hunting ground starts from post AO and ends at USOpen. He has won 5 titles in his entire career outside of this.

2 AO
1 Madrid
1 Beijing
And 1 ATP cup I think.

So he is very beatable pre AO and post USO. But he still has 92 titles so he is very hard to beat for the rest of the year.

In 2011, Nadal had 9 losses in this period. 6 of them were in the final. All 6 times it was Djokovic.

Yes this would be a peak demolition by Djokovic.

 

[buscemi]

Over the final 3.5 months of the season, Djokovic's results were:

-retiring against del Potro in Davis Cup while down a set and 3-0​

-getting bageled by Nishikori in the third set of their Basel SF (after beating Malisse, Kubot, and Baghdatis)​

-pulling out of Bercy before his QF w/Tsonga (after beating Dodig and Troicki)​

-losing to Tipsarevic and Ferrer (6-3, 6-1) and beating Berdych to finish 1-2 and failing to advance at WTF​

That's 3.5 months of pretty bad play, placing below someone like McEnroe in 1984.

 

[Third Serve]

It’s definitely a strong contender, but the poor finish to the season (mostly due to injuries) is why a few others are better, even Djokovic’s own 2015.

 

[Third Serve]

Mac's 1984 above all. Peak dominance with good opponents (Lendl 7-1, Connors 6-0, Wilander 3-0).

Very nearly made it 8-0 against Lendl too.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Over the final 3.5 months of the season, Djokovic's results were:

-retiring against del Potro in Davis Cup while down a set and 3-0​

-getting bageled by Nishikori in the third set of their Basel SF (after beating Malisse, Kubot, and Baghdatis)​

-pulling out of Bercy before his QF w/Tsonga (after beating Dodig and Troicki)​

-losing to Tipsarevic and Ferrer (6-3, 6-1) and beating Berdych to finish 1-2 and failing to advance at WTF​

That's 3.5 months of pretty bad play, placing below someone like McEnroe in 1984.

Yes

2011 is not the best year in tennis history. But it's top 10. Which is not bad.

 

[Fabresque]

Problem with 2011 is that it felt at the time that Djokovic’s time had arrived due to attrition. Felt like Fed and Rafa had both regressed, and he stepped up to fill the void.

This take is controversial, but I’m going to put Djokovic 2023 up there as his most impressive season. He may not be in his physically peak prime, and yeah the competition is weak, but he’s more polished and savvy and less likely to lose when it matters. In fact, I’m gonna say that Alcaraz got lucky to beat him at W, with Djok making a rare technical miscue by wearing an ill-advised thigh wrap that messed up his timing. Djoker was a few points away from winning all 4.

They had "regressed"? Nadal just won 3 slams in 2010 whilst Fed won the other one. There was no regression from Nadal and only slight regression from Fed.

 

[AnOctorokForDinner]

Very nearly made it 8-0 against Lendl too.

A closer miss that Djokovic's own RG SF loss, right. An excellent feather in Lendl's cap recovering from getting trounced for six sets even on clay that year (6-4 6-2, 6-3 6-2, 6-3 6-2) to stop the hitherto unbeatable McEnroe. He had to be an even bigger underdog than Federer in their respective wins given his then slamless status. "Epickest" maiden win ever probably.

 

[RS]

If Mac played AO assuming he is the favorite there? I know AO was skipped back then a lot.

 

[Hood_Man]

I will always bow down in awe of what Novak did in 2011. Federer was past his best yes, but Nadal was in the form of his life - if not for Novak, it would have been Nadal with 3 majors, 5 masters trophies, and 10+ tournament victories that year.

I don't think I've ever seen such a sustained and gutsy season from one player like that - from January to June he forgot how to lose and there were so many classic matches from him that year.

His 2015 season may be statistically better in terms of the trophy cabinet but 2011 is the one I'll remember for how well he played.

 

[Razer]

What about Mac’s 84 though?

The game evolved, racquet tech changed, Mac got booted out when guys like Boris Becker arrived... it is evolution.

 

[Neptune]

What about Mac’s 84 though?

OE top5 seasons achievement wise:
Nole15, Laver69, Fed06, Mac84, Nole11
Opposition: higher Nole/Mac, mid Laver, lower Fed

 

[nolefam_2024]

OE top5 seasons achievement wise:
Nole15, Laver69, Fed06, Mac84, Nole11
Opposition: higher Nole/Mac, mid Laver, lower Fed

Fed 2006 had lowest competition of all?

 

[Neptune]

Fed 2006 had lowest competition of all?

among the top 5 seasons

 

[RS]

@NeutralFan

Thread nuked.

 

[Neptune]

Fed 2006 had lowest competition of all?

Average opponent rank and Elo
Nole15: 18, 2091
Nole11: 17, 2078
Mac84: 22, 2044
Laver69: 26, 2045
Fed06: 28, 2004

 

[nolefam_2024]

Average opponent rank and Elo
Nole15: 18, 2091
Nole11: 17, 2078
Mac84: 22, 2044
Laver69: 26, 2045
Fed06: 28, 2004

Thank you. Opponent rank is telling. Fed on average played a Sebastian Baez than Cam Norrie or Ben Shelton. Makes sense.

 

[fedfan24]

There’s a general feeing that he avoided a SF W loss with the Tsonga assist, + the RG semi loss and the close escape at the USO. Very easily could’ve been a 1-2 slam season just like 2012-2014 but the breaks went his way. Finally, in 2015 he managed another 3 slam year as the competition evaporated compared to 2012-2013.

Fantastic year but everything went his way. I would take Fed’s 2004-2006 for pure level. 2007 would be closer.

 

[Neptune]

There’s a general feeing that he avoided a SF W loss with the Tsonga assist, + the RG semi loss and the close escape at the USO. Very easily could’ve been a 1-2 slam season just like 2012-2014 but the breaks went his way. Finally, in 2015 he managed another 3 slam year as the competition evaporated compared to 2012-2013.

Fantastic year but everything went his way. I would take Fed’s 2004-2006 for pure level. 2007 would be closer.

Average opponent rank and Elo
Nole15: 18, 2091
Nole11: 17, 2078
Fed06: 28, 2004

talking about competition

 

[fedfan24]

Average opponent rank and Elo
Nole15: 18, 2091
Nole11: 17, 2078
Fed06: 28, 2004

talking about competition

What does rank or ELO have to do with how much the opponents challenged Djokovic or Federer? 2006 Nadal on clay was by far a stronger opponent than anyone 2015 Djokovic faced. 2006 Fed would’ve smashed 15 Stan in 4 sets at most.

 

[Razer]

Fed 2006 had lowest competition of all?

Weakest 3 Slam Season of all time is ..... 2023


Then
2021
Then
2006
Then
2010
Then
2004 ~ 2015
Then
2007
Then
2011 which is the strongest



[ I have no idea about Wilander's 1988, cannot judge eras I've not seen/lived in ]

 

[fedfan24]

Weakest 3 Slam Season of all time is ..... 2023


Then
2021
Then
2006
Then
2010
Then
2015
Then
2007
Then
2011



[ I have no idea about Wilander's 1988, cannot judge eras I've not seen/lived in ]

2006 isn’t weiaer than 2015 or 2010 at slams. 1 ATG level opponent for 06 Fed. 2010/2015 had 0 unless you’re counting 2015 Stan.

 

[nolefam_2024]

Weakest 3 Slam Season of all time is ..... 2023


Then
2021
Then
2006
Then
2010
Then
2015
Then
2007
Then
2011



[ I have no idea about Wilander's 1988, cannot judge eras I've not seen/lived in ]

Nice

2023 is oldest someone did it so doesn't matter. Where is 2004.

 

[inflation_era]

Guy was one point away from losing 2/3 slams to Federer 6 years older than him, how GOAT can be then? He didn't 'beat' Federer at the USO, Federer choked allowing Djokovic to win. Big difference.

 

[NeutralFan]

@NeutralFan

Thread nuked.

Bots got it nuked , I am no longer surprised.

 

[Razer]

Nice

2023 is oldest someone did it so doesn't matter. Where is 2004.

Edited

I think 2004 and 2015 were more or less same, Safin, Federer, Roddick, old Agassi were all powerful players in 2004.... 2015 Nole and Fed, apart from that field was a bit weak..... but in general they are similar years.... will be a good fight between peak Fed and peak Djokovic of the respective years.

Had Nadal been at his best then 2015 would have been a very strong year.... but he wasnt, thats why people bad mouth 2015 a lot.

 

[fedfan24]

Guy was one point away from losing 2/3 slams to Federer 6 years older than him, how GOAT can be then? He didn't 'beat' Federer at the USO, Federer choked allowing Djokovic to win. Big difference.

+ he never beat the best player at Wimbledon, Tsonga did it for him. Fed would’ve probably won that semi in 4, same as in 2012. There’s always going to be ? When you are let off the hook in 2 consecutive slams.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

+ he never beat the best player at Wimbledon, Tsonga did it for him. Fed would’ve probably won that semi in 4, same as in 2012. There’s always going to be ? When you are let off the hook in 2 consecutive slams.

There is no "probably". He beat the players in front of him. Soderling did it for Federer in RG 2009, do we discount that slam from him? And he's like 0-5 vs Nadal there while Djokovic is 3-1 vs Federer at Wimbledon. And yeah, we hear the "he's old" narrative but if he had beaten Federer in that slam we'd hear the same thing. He lost to Berdych the previous year and to Tsonga that year, and the following year Djokovic was even against him until deep in the 3rd, so it's not like Federer winning was a sure thing.

2006 isn’t weiaer than 2015 or 2010 at slams. 1 ATG level opponent for 06 Fed. 2010/2015 had 0 unless you’re counting 2015 Stan.

2006 isn't weaker than 2015 at slams ?!?!?!

Djokovic beat Federer and Murray at the AO, Federer beat Kiefer and Baghdatis, at RG Federer beat an injured Nalbandian, Djokovic beat Murray, at Wimbledon Djokovic beat Federer and Federer beat Nadal, at the USO Federer beat Davydenko and Roddick, Djokovic beat Cilic and Federer.

To make an sort of comparison it's a joke. Djokovic had some weaker years like 2021 or 2023, 2015 sure as hell wasn't one of them.

 

[RS]

Bots got it nuked , I am no longer surprised.

It was likely reported by at least a few people. I really think without a nudge from reporting it's not enough most the time.

 

[fedfan24]

There is no "probably". He beat the players in front of him. Soderling did it for Federer in RG 2009, do we discount that slam from him? And he's like 0-5 vs Nadal there while Djokovic is 3-1 vs Federer at Wimbledon. And yeah, we hear the "he's old" narrative but if he had beaten Federer in that slam we'd hear the same thing. He lost to Berdych the previous year and to Tsonga that year, and the following year Djokovic was even against him until deep in the 3rd, so it's not like Federer winning was a sure thing.



2006 isn't weaker than 2015 at slams ?!?!?!

Djokovic beat Federer and Murray at the AO, Federer beat Kiefer and Baghdatis, at RG Federer beat an injured Nalbandian, Djokovic beat Murray, at Wimbledon Djokovic beat Federer and Federer beat Nadal, at the USO Federer beat Davydenko and Roddick, Djokovic beat Cilic and Federer.

To make a sort of comparison it's a joke. Djokovic had some weaker years like 2021 or 2023, 2015 sure as hell wasn't one of them.

We’re not talking about 09 being the greatest seasons of all time. Djokovic receiving an assist from Tsonga raises a question mark. Still a good win, would’ve been better if he took out Fed to do it. 2014/2015/2019 arent really relevant, 2012 semi is the closest data we have to how a prime to prime (Fed with the old racket with close to prime defence+FH) goes.


2006/2015 both guys won 3 slams where result was NID. Doesn’t matter if you face Roddick, 06 Nadal, Murray or 2015 Fed, the result is the same for the winner. Key difference is Federer had an ATG opponent in Nadal on clay BO5. Djokovic had none.

 

[fedfan24]

There is no "probably". He beat the players in front of him. Soderling did it for Federer in RG 2009, do we discount that slam from him? And he's like 0-5 vs Nadal there while Djokovic is 3-1 vs Federer at Wimbledon. And yeah, we hear the "he's old" narrative but if he had beaten Federer in that slam we'd hear the same thing. He lost to Berdych the previous year and to Tsonga that year, and the following year Djokovic was even against him until deep in the 3rd, so it's not like Federer winning was a sure thing.



2006 isn't weaker than 2015 at slams ?!?!?!

Djokovic beat Federer and Murray at the AO, Federer beat Kiefer and Baghdatis, at RG Federer beat an injured Nalbandian, Djokovic beat Murray, at Wimbledon Djokovic beat Federer and Federer beat Nadal, at the USO Federer beat Davydenko and Roddick, Djokovic beat Cilic and Federer.

To make an sort of comparison it's a joke. Djokovic had some weaker years like 2021 or 2023, 2015 sure as hell wasn't one of them.

Btw for AO Fed also beat haas and davydenko to go with Bagdhatis. 2015 AO was a little tougher with the Stan match but even he collapsed in the 5th, being bagelled.

Wimbledon is 06 Nadal vs 2015 Federer. Both runners up played well for 2/4 sets. Tie.

USO Blake, Davydenko, Roddick vs 2015 Federer. Slightly tougher final for Djokovic, tougher Pre final for Fed. Probably a tie.