isnt 2011 the Goat/peak season?

fedfan24 said:
What does rank or ELO have to do with how much the opponents challenged Djokovic or Federer? 2006 Nadal on clay was by far a stronger opponent than anyone 2015 Djokovic faced. 2006 Fed would’ve smashed 15 Stan in 4 sets at most.
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Don’t let facts ruin stats ;)
 
Ace7 said:
i dont really see how people think that Djokovic didnt have the highest peak ever based on that season alone ?

He was 10 - 1 against Fedal both didnt have any excuses since Rafa was 24/25 years old coming from his best season ever in 2010 and playing crazy well in 2011.

Federer was 29/30 playing a really high level proven how hard he pushed Djokovic and beating him on clay at RG 11 in his best clay match ever next to Rome 2006.
also the age excuse sounds even more strange if you look at other sports in terms of prime performance due to age, in football alone i could tell you so many players even peaking !! in that age. Wawrinka and Djokovic are also examples having peak seasons aged 28 - 30.

there ist not a single season where one of the Big 3 dominated his other 2 GOAT candidates besides 2011.

discuss.
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The fact that he lost RG to Federer with all his youthful vitality already proves it wasn't the highest peak, although it could be a contender for 2nd place or near

Also was supposed to lose USO to him too down matchpoints but relied on Federer choking as usual rather than outplaying in the match before giving him matchpoints
 
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2008 bestie :D

4ef4f7fef19c4a9e8f11c50fe0ac203cf50ae04f.gif
 
Aestheticsaboveallelse said:
The fact that he lost RG to Federer with all his youthful vitality already proves it wasn't the highest peak, although it could be a contender for 2nd place or near

Also was supposed to lose USO to him too down matchpoints but relied on Federer choking as usual rather than outplaying in the match before giving him matchpoints
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Highest peak doesn’t win slams by being solid and the other guy chokes, he takes it out of their hand. Djokovic may have the best longevity but not peak.
 
fedfan24 said:
+ he never beat the best player at Wimbledon, Tsonga did it for him. Fed would’ve probably won that semi in 4, same as in 2012. There’s always going to be ? When you are let off the hook in 2 consecutive slams.
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Wimb12 after Fed was up 2 sets in QF, but realized he would meet Nole SF and Rafa in F and simply choked to lose to Tsonga, you don't invite embarrassment to Fed.
 
fedfan24 said:
Highest peak doesn’t win slams by being solid and the other guy chokes, he takes it out of their hand. Djokovic may have the best longevity but not peak.
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Going 6:0 against peak nadal in 2011 tells a different Story for me. When did federer do something even close to that? He even lost matches to a teenage nadal on hard.
 
Neptune said:
Wimb12 after Fed was up 2 sets in QF, but realized he would meet Nole SF and Rafa in F and simply choked to lose to Tsonga, you don't invite embarrassment to Fed.
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he outplayed Nadal for stretches of rg 11 final. He very much would’ve liked his chances on grass.
 
Ace7 said:
Going 6:0 against peak nadal in 2011 tells a different Story for me. When did federer do something even close to that? He even lost matches to a teenage nadal on hard.
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Different match ups. Djokovic simply isn’t as good as Federer of both are at their peak outside of a select few events. I wouldn’t call 2011 Nadal peak either, 2010/2012 were a notch ahead, as was 2008, and 05-07 on clay.
 
fedfan24 said:
he outplayed Nadal for stretches of rg 11 final. He very much would’ve liked his chances on grass.
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don't worry, Fed always finds way to lose, and against Nole, whenever Fed loses a match in any slam, he never manages to secure another win at that slam.
 
Neptune said:
don't worry, Fed always finds way to lose, and against Nole, whenever Fed loses a match in any slam, he never manages to secure another win at that slam.
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Luckily for you Djokovic wasn’t good enough to reach prime fed very often at slams or else it would’ve been a massacre. At least grandpa fed showed up to take his beatings.
 
fedfan24 said:
Luckily for you Djokovic wasn’t good enough to reach prime fed very often at slams or else it would’ve been a massacre. At least grandpa fed showed up to take his beatings.
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Try to figure out Fed's H2H against Rafa first, don't invite embarrassment to Fed nonstop.
 
fedfan24 said:
Different match ups. Djokovic simply isn’t as good as Federer of both are at their peak outside of a select few events. I wouldn’t call 2011 Nadal peak either, 2010/2012 were a notch ahead, as was 2008, and 05-07 on clay.
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match ups of course play a roll but if you want to be the best it doesnt matter. Federer got his spankings from nadal quite heavily match up is no excuse in that.
 
Ace7 said:
match ups of course play a roll but if you want to be the best it doesnt matter. Federer got his spankings from nadal quite heavily match up is no excuse in that.
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Matchup has everything to do with it, one handers get ravaged by Nadal and two handers have no problem... and even that Federer solved off clay late in career 6-0 vs Nadal hard and grass
 
Aestheticsaboveallelse said:
Matchup has everything to do with it, one handers get ravaged by Nadal and two handers have no problem... and even that Federer solved off clay late in career 6-0 vs Nadal hard and grass
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Its your problem as a player if you cant handle the game of your opponent and find solutions you are simply not the best. but thats what people say right? Federer in his peak is the absolute best doesnt matter against who. doesnt seem like it.
 
Fed was playing at a very high level as proven by how hard he pushed Djokovic who was playing the best ever because he did so well against Fed who was playing at a high level as proven by how hard he pushed Djokovic.
 
Ace7 said:
match ups of course play a roll but if you want to be the best it doesnt matter. Federer got his spankings from nadal quite heavily match up is no excuse in that.
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When did that happen outside of rg08 and some matches in 2013? (Fed’s worst season since 2001)
 
fedfan24 said:
When did that happen outside of rg08 and some matches in 2013? (Fed’s worst season since 2001)
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Even if we remove clay where fed lost almost everytime he went down 9-6 to nadal from 2004 to 2014 on hard including 0-3 at the australian open. In general almost all of his wins are indoors where nadal is just crap. It doenst look great at all for the supposed HC goat with the highest peak.
 
Ace7 said:
Even if we remove clay where fed lost almost everytime he went down 9-6 to nadal from 2004 to 2014 on hard including 0-3 at the australian open. In general almost all of his wins are indoors where nadal is just crap. It doenst look great at all for the supposed HC goat with the highest peak.
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and most of nadal’s hc wins were on crappy hc’s like Australia in middle of his peak. Dubai 06 being the outlier, just like 07 Hamburg and 09 Madrid wins for fed. They simply didn’t play on quicker courts enough favourable to proactive, aggressive tennis.
 
fedfan24 said:
and most of nadal’s hc wins were on crappy hc’s like Australia in middle of his peak. Dubai 06 being the outlier, just like 07 Hamburg and 09 Madrid wins for fed. They simply didn’t play on quicker courts enough favourable to proactive, aggressive tennis.
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crappy HC's like australia? Come on man its a slam and he went 0-3 cant twist around that its pretty bad. also even if not that significant but having so much trouble with a 18 year old Nadal at miami in 04/05 during feds peak is kind of strange.
 
Neptune said:
Nole 2015 > Fed 2006 no matter how you look.
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2006 Federer played in eleven BO5 finals.

BauerAlmeida said:
2006 isn't weaker than 2015 at slams ?!?!?!
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2006 isn't weaker than 2015 period. 2006 Federer faced a diverse group of strong players of his own generation and the next generation. But in 2015, with Nadal hampered and no young gun emerging, Nole kept facing Old-erer (7 finals!) and Murray over and over and over again.

Ace7 said:
i dont really see how people think that Djokovic didnt have the highest peak ever based on that season alone ?
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He didn't even make it out of RR of the WTF.
 
Ace7 said:
i dont really see how people think that Djokovic didnt have the highest peak ever based on that season alone ?

He was 10 - 1 against Fedal both didnt have any excuses since Rafa was 24/25 years old coming from his best season ever in 2010 and playing crazy well in 2011.

Federer was 29/30 playing a really high level proven how hard he pushed Djokovic and beating him on clay at RG 11 in his best clay match ever next to Rome 2006.
also the age excuse sounds even more strange if you look at other sports in terms of prime performance due to age, in football alone i could tell you so many players even peaking !! in that age. Wawrinka and Djokovic are also examples having peak seasons aged 28 - 30.

there ist not a single season where one of the Big 3 dominated his other 2 GOAT candidates besides 2011.

discuss.
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Novak barely scraped by a well-post-peak Federer at the USO who had match points on him.

Noval lost in four to a well-post-peak Fed at RG.

Fed went on a run after the USO and crushed it at the WTF that year 2- bled right into 2012 playing the best tennis of anyone and took number one back by the summer of 2012.

2011 could have easily been a 2 slam season for Novak.

It was a great season for Djokovic. One of the best ever.

But it was not better than Fed's 2006/2005 peak.
 
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jl809 said:
  • Highest peak season doesn’t necessarily = highest peak
  • If we don’t want to talk about hypotheticals and instead we go off numbers alone, as Djokovic fans are constantly telling us to these days, 2006 Fed was a higher peak season
  • If we do want to go off hypotheticals, 2006 Fed would have beaten 2011 Djoker at 2 slams and the YEC
Now is it “a” GOAT season? Yes for sure, 10-1 is an incredible feat, especially including 2 wins over a prime Nadal on clay and beating Fedal B2B in a slam
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How old were Nadal & Djokovic in 2006? Who were Federer's top rivals?
 
Federev said:
Novak barely scraped by a well-post-peak Federer at the USO who had match points on him.

Noval lost in four to a well-post-peak Fed at RG.

Fed went on a run after the USO and crushed it at the WTF that year 2- bled right into 2012 playing the best tennis of anyone and took number one back by the summer of 2012.

2011 could have easily been a 2 slam season for Novak.

It was a great season for Novak. One of the best ever. But it was not better than the Fed's peak.

But it was not better than Fed's 2006/2005 peak.
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Exactly, in what this forum considers his best season ever Djokovic found himself millimeters away from splitting the grand slams 2-2 with Federer...
 
duaneeo said:
2006 isn't weaker than 2015 period.
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2006 had Agassi gone, Hewitt done as a top player, Roddick in a bad slump, Coria starting to vanish. That's several of the top players from the previous years. Nadal underdeveloped outside clay, Nalbandian with his usual inconsistencies and poor second half of the year. Only Davydenko basically as a great player playing consistently all year long.

Ljubicic was #3, Blake was #4 and Robredo was #5, the idea that that could happen in 2015 is hilarious.


2006 Federer faced a diverse group of strong players of his own generation and the next generation.
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2015 Djokovic faced a diverse group of players from his own generation and the previous generation.


But in 2015, with Nadal hampered and no young gun emerging, Nole kept facing Old-erer (7 finals!) and Murray over and over and over again.
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Old-erer being better than everyone Federer faced in 2006 bar Nadal on clay and Nalbandian the first half of the year. Murray being better than everyone Federer faced. Wawrinka too. Hell, even the next-generation that failed vs Djokodal is better than Ljubicic, Blake, Robredo and co. Dimitrov, Raonic, Nishikori are not inferior to that group.



The YE TOP 10 in 2015 is leagues above the one in 2006. We can compare with 2005 or 2007. But 2006 was a completely mediocre year.
 
Ace7 said:
crappy HC's like australia? Come on man its a slam and he went 0-3 cant twist around that its pretty bad. also even if not that significant but having so much trouble with a 18 year old Nadal at miami in 04/05 during feds peak is kind of strange.
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add 7-8 Madrid indoors, cincy + USO during Fed’s peak then we can talk. You mentioned some slow hc’s where the ball sits up and Nadal can run all day.
 
BauerAlmeida said:
2006 had Agassi gone, Hewitt done as a top player, Roddick in a bad slump, Coria starting to vanish. That's several of the top players from the previous years. Nadal underdeveloped outside clay, Nalbandian with his usual inconsistencies and poor second half of the year. Only Davydenko basically as a great player playing consistently all year long.

Ljubicic was #3, Blake was #4 and Robredo was #5, the idea that that could happen in 2015 is hilarious.




2015 Djokovic faced a diverse group of players from his own generation and the previous generation.





Old-erer being better than everyone Federer faced in 2006 bar Nadal on clay and Nalbandian the first half of the year. Murray being better than everyone Federer faced. Wawrinka too. Hell, even the next-generation that failed vs Djokodal is better than Ljubicic, Blake, Robredo and co. Dimitrov, Raonic, Nishikori are not inferior to that group.



The YE TOP 10 in 2015 is leagues above the one in 2006. We can compare with 2005 or 2007. But 2006 was a completely mediocre year.
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So was 2015, but at least Fed had some ATG comp on one surface. Djokovic had a free rein on every surface and won 3 freebie slams that year. Lost a 4th to stan Wawrinka, a journeyman from fed’s era.


RE the bolded complete drivel. You must be from an alternative universe if you think 2015 Djokovic had it tough to win his 3 slams that year. You can’t be watching the same matches.
 
OE top5 seasons achievement wise:
Nole2015, Laver1969, Fed2006, Mac1984, Nole2011

Opposition: higher Nole/Mac, mid Laver, lower Fed

Average opponent rank and Elo
Nole2015: 18, 2091
Nole2011: 17, 2078
Mac1984: 22, 2044
Laver1969: 26, 2045
Fed2006: 28, 2004
 
duaneeo said:
2006 Federer played in eleven BO5 finals.



2006 isn't weaker than 2015 period. 2006 Federer faced a diverse group of strong players of his own generation and the next generation. But in 2015, with Nadal hampered and no young gun emerging, Nole kept facing Old-erer (7 finals!) and Murray over and over and over again.



He didn't even make it out of RR of the WTF.
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Old-erer and Murray are somehow comparable to 2006 Nadal on BO5 clay now. The revisionism here is astounding. Are we forgetting just how toothless 2015 Fed was in those slam finals ?

Murray isn’t worth a mention. He was a free win every time.
 
fedfan24 said:
So was 2015, but at least Fed had some ATG comp on one surface. Djokovic had a free rein on every surface and won 3 freebie slams that year. Lost a 4th to stan Wawrinka, a journeyman from fed’s era.


RE the bolded complete drivel. You must be from an alternative universe if you think 2015 Djokovic had it tough to win his 3 slams that year. You can’t be watching the same matches.
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I'm talking about the level of competition, not having it tough or not tough. I'm not going to punish a player for winning easily against a great player, be it Djokovic, Federer, Sampras, Nadal, Borg or anyone else.
 
BauerAlmeida said:
I'm talking about the level of competition, not having it tough or not tough. I'm not going to punish a player for winning easily against a great player, be it Djokovic, Federer, Sampras, Nadal, Borg or anyone else.
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Just because his name is Federer doesn’t make him great competition in a certain match. playing well for 2 sets puts 2015 Wimbledon final fed on the same tier as 06 Nadal/roddick.
How is Murray great competition? You knew he’d lose as soon as he entered the court after his injury problems. He was never the same as his 2012-2013 peak.
 
fedfan24 said:
Just because his name is Federer doesn’t make him great competition in a certain match. playing well for 2 sets puts 2015 Wimbledon final fed on the same tier as 06 Nadal/roddick.
How is Murray great competition? You knew he’d lose as soon as he entered the court after his injury problems. He was never the same as his 2012-2013 peak.
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Whole season average opponent rank 18 vs 28, huge gap, not even close.
 
fedfan24 said:
Just because his name is Federer doesn’t make him great competition in a certain match. playing well for 2 sets puts 2015 Wimbledon final fed on the same tier as 06 Nadal/roddick.
How is Murray great competition? You knew he’d lose as soon as he entered the court after his injury problems. He was never the same as his 2012-2013 peak.
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Lol, Murray who reached #1 in 2016 winning a slam, making two finals, winning YEC and Olympic Gold was finished?

Roddick in 2006 dropped out of the top 10 and had a crap year until Cinci. He played well in Cinci, the USO and one match against Federer in the YEC. Nadal won NOTHING after Roland Garros and won one title the whole year outside clay, which was against Federer himself.

Federer in Wimbledon 2015 put one of his greatest performances EVER in the semifinal and was the favorite for the final. Djokovic didn't beat a Federer that struggled to reach the final or was there by chance. Not to mention that TWO years after he was putting one of his best slam runs ever there, so he wasn't that old. And in Cinici 2015 he had one of his best runs ever, not facing a single break point all week.
 
Ace7 said:
i dont really see how people think that Djokovic didnt have the highest peak ever based on that season alone ?

He was 10 - 1 against Fedal both didnt have any excuses since Rafa was 24/25 years old coming from his best season ever in 2010 and playing crazy well in 2011.

Federer was 29/30 playing a really high level proven how hard he pushed Djokovic and beating him on clay at RG 11 in his best clay match ever next to Rome 2006.
also the age excuse sounds even more strange if you look at other sports in terms of prime performance due to age, in football alone i could tell you so many players even peaking !! in that age. Wawrinka and Djokovic are also examples having peak seasons aged 28 - 30.

there ist not a single season where one of the Big 3 dominated his other 2 GOAT candidates besides 2011.

discuss.
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I view Djokovic’s 2011 as the greatest season of all time, narrowly eclipsing Federer 2006 and Djokovic 2015.

Yes, 2015 might be slightly better statistically, but the level he reached and his domination over peak Nadal on all surfaces in 2011 makes it even more impressive to me.
 
SABRvolley said:
I view Djokovic’s 2011 as the greatest season of all time, narrowly eclipsing Federer 2006 and Djokovic 2015.

Yes, 2015 might be slightly better statistically, but the level he reached and his domination over peak Nadal on all surfaces in 2011 makes it even more impressive to me.
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Peak Nadal is 2008 and 2011 isn't close... also Djokovics 2015 is best easily. Couple match points away from only winning 2 slams in 2011 which would've been twice eliminated by non peak Federer, clearly 2015 Djokovic is a better player
 
Aestheticsaboveallelse said:
The fact that he lost RG to Federer with all his youthful vitality already proves it wasn't the highest peak, although it could be a contender for 2nd place or near

Also was supposed to lose USO to him too down matchpoints but relied on Federer choking as usual rather than outplaying in the match before giving him matchpoints
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How is it that whenever Federer, a 20-slam winner and Nadal, a 22-slam winner lose to Djokovic it is because they choked or were too old or injured, so could not possibly win?
 
BauerAlmeida said:
Lol, Murray who reached #1 in 2016 winning a slam, making two finals, winning YEC and Olympic Gold was finished?

Roddick in 2006 dropped out of the top 10 and had a crap year until Cinci. He played well in Cinci, the USO and one match against Federer in the YEC. Nadal won NOTHING after Roland Garros and won one title the whole year outside clay, which was against Federer himself.

Federer in Wimbledon 2015 put one of his greatest performances EVER in the semifinal and was the favorite for the final. Djokovic didn't beat a Federer that struggled to reach the final or was there by chance. Not to mention that TWO years after he was putting one of his best slam runs ever there, so he wasn't that old. And in Cinici 2015 he had one of his best runs ever, not facing a single break point all week.
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2015 Djokovic had it a bit tougher in BO3 but Fed faced a prime Nadal in 2 BO5 clay masters finals while Djokovic had Berdych and 34 year old Fed who was past his best in clay.

Cindy goes to 2015 for sure.

Murray reached number 1 2016 in the absence of the big 3. Djokovic was on his way down and the big 2 were both injured. He wasn’t “finished” but he was past being a threat to Djokovic in slams, hence why he went 0-5 in the h2h. Same as old Federer, 0-4 in slams. Neither guy were tough comp for this year over BO5. Federer played 2 good sets at Wimbledon, same as 2006 Nadal. What he did in the semi isn’t really relevant.
 
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thrust said:
How is it that whenever Federer, a 20-slam winner and Nadal, a 22-slam winner lose to Djokovic it is because they choked or were too old or injured, so could not possibly win?
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Yup as annoying as djokovic Fans can be but excuses for novaks loses i hear the least. With fedal i always read out of prime, injured, just choked, should have won that, was the better player but just lost blabla.
 
thrust said:
How is it that whenever Federer, a 20-slam winner and Nadal, a 22-slam winner lose to Djokovic it is because they choked or were too old or injured, so could not possibly win?
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Yo man dis aint da point of da poast. Da point of da poast is its not Djokovic's best season if he was just one point away multiple times from splitting all the slams with non peak Federer
 
Since it's based on performance over the entire year and not just majors, one perspective from https://www.tennis.com/news/articles/novak-djokovic-is-still-hungry-after-all-these-years

The Ultimate Tennis Statistics website, worked up a comprehensive and seemingly bias-free points-based formula to evaluate annual production. It has Djokovic occupying the top spot (2015) as well as the No. 5 spot (2011). Rod Laver places No. 2 on the strength of his glorious 1969, followed by Roger Federer (2006) at No. 3 and John McEnroe at No. 4 (1984).
....
Federer still holds four of the top eight places, including Nos. 6, 7 and 8 for, respectively, 2007, ‘04, and ‘05). This UTS ranking incorporates many next-level considerations, but the bulk of a player’s points comes from performances in the most important tournaments: the majors, the tour championships and Masters 1000 events.

Given all that, some might still find it surprising, that Djokovic’s 2023 is ranked just No. 15—just behind Andy Murray's 2016 season, in which the Scot finished second in two majors, won Wimbledon and collected an Olympic singles gold. It seems like an anomaly, yet it represents a critical reality about the “best year” debate. First and foremost, it is—or should be—about domination. It is about the degree of a player’s week-in, week-out, take-no-prisoners, I’m the hammer (and you’re just a nail) consistency. It’s about volume—output, if you prefer.
...
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2011 USO Djokovic v Federer and then Djokovic going on to beat Nadal in the final is what makes it the GOAT season. That was the moment that you knew Djokovic is the GOAT.
 
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