It’s time we stop bashing “pushers”

Cawlin

Semi-Pro
But I just can't imagine slicing and moonballing for an entire match as my ideal method of paly.
I don't know if I think it was his ideal way to play... it was just what he was comfortable with in the moment, and it worked for him, he won big, and made the other guy really mad in the process. What more could you ask for? It's a mark of high tennis IQ to recognize a winning strategy and to execute it... what do you think Brad Gilbert would say about it?
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
^^^ As typical, what we imagine, our ideals about ourselves often far surpass our realities. In everyone's mind and fantasy, they play like Federer, drive lambos, date super model, everywhere they go there's a spot light shining on them. In reality it's a lonely hobo with an old racket dinking an old ball around in a cracked, public court ...
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
what do you think Brad Gilbert would say about it?
Brad Gilbert was trying to make a living. I'd posit that developing tennis relationships is more important than amassing victories in rec tennis. Having all your tennis contacts dry up because you are annoying to play with hampers your tennis life more than anything. We all know those guys that we'd never call unless we were overly desperate to round out a doubles foursome. I'd rather have more invites to play and fewer victories than more victories and no invites to play.

So f*ck Brad Gilbert. Arthur Ashe should be your tennis model in rec tennis.
 

Cawlin

Semi-Pro
Brad Gilbert was trying to make a living. I'd posit that developing tennis relationships is more important than amassing victories in rec tennis. Having all your tennis contacts dry up because you are annoying to play with hampers your tennis life more than anything. We all know those guys that we'd never call unless we were overly desperate to round out a doubles foursome. I'd rather have more invites to play and fewer victories than more victories and no invites to play.

So f*ck Brad Gilbert. Arthur Ashe should be your tennis model in rec tennis.
Well if people don't want to play with you because they can't beat you, why would you want to play with them?
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Well if people don't want to play with you because they can't beat you, why would you want to play with them?
Because who else are you going to play with? You aren't getting the invites from the players that can beat you. Beating pushers is like learning overheads. You do it so you don't have to anymore.

I guess all the pushers could get together and form their own social pusher circle, but I find even pushers don't like playing other pushers.
 

Yamin

Rookie
I don't talk down to pushers but playing against a wall is just as exciting/enticing.
 
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Jono123

New User
I remember playing in the Club tourney. I was playing quarter finals and this pair of pushers were in the other on the adjacent court. Well they were there when I started and when I finished still going at it. Eventually after another hour they arrived and the one, who I call the Golden Retriever was victorious. The other's face was beetroot red.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Nah. When you finally run into someone who doesn’t cough up freebies is when you actually have to start thinking strategically to win, and that’s when the fun starts.
What strategy does someone use when all they can do is fluff balls back to the middle? Does a pusher actually go for unsafe shots? Are they still a pusher if they take risks? Does one pusher have to shed the mantle or do they play endless moon ball rallies until someone mishits finally?

I've only ever once seen a pusher on pusher match and it was 3 hours to get to a 6-4 6-4 victory for the slightly more consistent pusher. But they both stayed in pusher mode and waited for one to miss.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
What strategy does someone use when all they can do is fluff balls back to the middle? Does a pusher actually go for unsafe shots? Are they still a pusher if they take risks? Does one pusher have to shed the mantle or do they play endless moon ball rallies until someone mishits finally?

I've only ever once seen a pusher on pusher match and it was 3 hours to get to a 6-4 6-4 victory for the slightly more consistent pusher. But they both stayed in pusher mode and waited for one to miss.
In most pusher-on-pusher matches, one player will quickly assert his alpha pusherness, and the other player will have to adapt by playing outside his comfort zone.
 

Wheelz

Semi-Pro
Joined this ladder league since Im at the "top"of my city ladder league. I heard it had great competition, juniors etc.... In any case I received the game for my round robin and checked with friends if they knew this guy, I dont have time to waste if i got ranked too low . Friends tell me this guy is a good player. Im like great, lets have fun! this league is advertised as relaxed, all for fun and good competition.

Game was awful. The guy was lobbing and pushing back the whole match, which lasted 3 hours. I was told he had a good forehand lol. i dont mind when he is running around which he did alot but from the middle of the court on purpose its weak. I advised him before that i have about 2h max, no problem we have time. I was not good at the net, i was ok from baseline, but I needed to streak many good shots in a row and be patient. Every time he was down in the score he was getting even worst for lobbing ! So many lobs hitting the paint, it was painfully frustrating.

Lost first set 2-6. Cursing in my head trying to keep cool. Blown to many leads.

2nd set I won 7-5, I started to lob at the end. It was a shame and I hope no one saw that. Like 20 shots rallies with me not even moving and lobbing back. I just didnt want to give him pace anymore, it was his time to show me his skills.

What was maybe the worst; is him getting water and his towel a few times when it was not the switch over. I was wondering if he didn't do all those strategies to frustrate me and for me to be late. Another weird move, I hit a winner passing shot when he is at the net but as he turns around (and my ball is way passed him) he calls a let from a slow rolling ball away from him. I guess on paper he is right but I would not have called that. It was one of the few nice points we had.

In any case, I won the 3rd set tie breaker for the win. I hope to never play him again...and I hope to improve my net game so I can finish those games quicker.
 
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chatt_town

Hall of Fame
Why does everyone talk down to pushers? They play the game like everyone else, just have a different playstyle. And what’s so wrong with people playing to win? Isn’t that the goal of the sport? To win? No respected coach or instructor would ever try and teach their lessons how to ONLY push (no improvement in that), but a lot of people see winning as more valuable than losing because you’re spraying your shots left and right.

Better to win ugly honestly.
Agreed. Its an excuse for losing most of the time. They don't know how to beat someone that is consistent. So they want to talk down on them. I remember watching an open event where One guy was complaining about the guy he was playing serve was "so slow". Keep in mind these were massive kick serves even the guy returning who was 6'6 couldn't return even with a two hand backhand. As I kept watching I realize the guy that was so called serving the ball slow was winning the match.lol They have no concept that it's about winning...not about how it looks in the stands. The more you get in the better your chances of winning the point and thus better chances of winning the match.
 

Mongolmike

Hall of Fame
^^^ As typical, what we imagine, our ideals about ourselves often far surpass our realities. In everyone's mind and fantasy, they play like Federer, drive lambos, date super model, everywhere they go there's a spot light shining on them. In reality it's a lonely hobo with an old racket dinking an old ball around in a cracked, public court ...
I'm sure l don't drive a Lambo, cuz if l did l would be out driving the wheels off it right this moment, and my wife has made it crystal clear that l am to NOT date super models. I've never asked if l can date a super model, but it's still 100% clear that l am not to do so.
 

lskater

New User
Agreed. Its an excuse for losing most of the time. They don't know how to beat someone that is consistent. So they want to talk down on them. I remember watching an open event where One guy was complaining about the guy he was playing serve was "so slow". Keep in mind these were massive kick serves even the guy returning who was 6'6 couldn't return even with a two hand backhand. As I kept watching I realize the guy that was so called serving the ball slow was winning the match.lol They have no concept that it's about winning...not about how it looks in the stands. The more you get in the better your chances of winning the point and thus better chances of winning the match.
You're just resorting to name-calling rather than looking at the details of the problem. I don't mind losing to somebody who has worked hard on their form and takes their hitting seriously. The people I'm talking about have no proper forehand or backhand....or volley for that matter....they simply hack at it like they're holding a baseball bat....they've gotten really good at this technique over the years. At 52 years old, it's not about winning.....it's about playing a fun game. Like I said earlier, nobody wants to play in a volleyball match where they just patter the ball over...they play a fun game of spiking the ball and having it be challenging...
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
At 52 years old, it's not about winning.....it's about playing a fun game.
This is a big thing. If winning is the only part of tennis someone finds "Fun" then I'm disinclined to play them. They usually are churlish, prone to gamesmanship, often play unconventionally and are poor sports. The guys that like to work on their game, enjoy a shot well struck and find the fun in tennis centers around competitive points, they are the guys I like to play.

Give me your best stuff, I'll give you mine and we'll see who comes out on top.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
You're just resorting to name-calling rather than looking at the details of the problem. I don't mind losing to somebody who has worked hard on their form and takes their hitting seriously. The people I'm talking about have no proper forehand or backhand....or volley for that matter....they simply hack at it like they're holding a baseball bat....they've gotten really good at this technique over the years. At 52 years old, it's not about winning.....it's about playing a fun game. Like I said earlier, nobody wants to play in a volleyball match where they just patter the ball over...they play a fun game of spiking the ball and having it be challenging...
For me, the most fun part of tennis is competing. Hitting moderately paced balls in the style of a cooperative rally is not really competing. It’s the opposite of competing, unless I need to hit a passing shot or an approach shot.
 

lskater

New User
So, it's not legit to compete based on consistency?
For me, it's not about consistency. The moon-ballers that I hate are very consistent moon ballers....EVERY shot. I played 2.5 hours..so just for arguments sake....what is that like 3-5 shots per point?...Let's say an average of 4-6 points per game. My match went 24 games.....that's 5shotsx5pointsx24games = 600 shots total between my partner and I (just estimate). So just for argument's sake, lets say my partner hit half of those 300 shots. more than 75 percent were moonballs. That's 225 moonballs I had to figure out what to do with...take them out of the air, let them hit and moonball back, let them hit and hit a regular shot, etc. As I said, at 52 years old....no I do not consider that a fun game. I practice with a coach once a week, we do not anticipate nor practice this kind of game on a regular basis.
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
For me, it's not about consistency. The moon-ballers that I hate are very consistent moon ballers....EVERY shot. I played 2.5 hours..so just for arguments sake....what is that like 3-5 shots per point?...Let's say an average of 4-6 points per game. My match went 24 games.....that's 5shotsx5pointsx24games = 600 shots total between my partner and I (just estimate). So just for argument's sake, lets say my partner hit half of those 300 shots. more than 75 percent were moonballs. That's 225 moonballs I had to figure out what to do with...take them out of the air, let them hit and moonball back, let them hit and hit a regular shot, etc. As I said, at 52 years old....no I do not consider that a fun game. I practice with a coach once a week, we do not anticipate nor practice this kind of game on a regular basis.
If you and your coach do not regularly practice dealing with moonballs, then you and your coach are doing your part to ensure the continued abundance of moonballers in the competitive singles ecosystem.
 

Papa Mango

Semi-Pro
You're just resorting to name-calling rather than looking at the details of the problem. I don't mind losing to somebody who has worked hard on their form and takes their hitting seriously. The people I'm talking about have no proper forehand or backhand....or volley for that matter....they simply hack at it like they're holding a baseball bat....they've gotten really good at this technique over the years. At 52 years old, it's not about winning.....it's about playing a fun game. Like I said earlier, nobody wants to play in a volleyball match where they just patter the ball over...they play a fun game of spiking the ball and having it be challenging...
Why would they need to work on their game if they can beat you with their hack baseball strokes? :unsure:
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
Why does the form or technique of your opponent matter at all to your enjoyment of playing tennis? Unless your ego is crushed by having to deal with the reality that you are not as good as you think you are and hackers or players without textbook technique can beat you.

All that should matter is what kind of ball (pace/spin/height/depth) and location your opponent hits and then what you do about it. How does it matter in a competitive match whether your opponent’s strokes look pretty or not. I don’t get this part at all.

If you don’t know how to deal with moonballs or slices or drop shots or lobs, these are gaps in your game that you have to fix by getting coaching lessons or doing drills against those shots. Opponents with pretty strokes will take advantage of the same weaknesses if they realize that it is the quickest way to beat you. Or if an opponent figures out in a match, you make errors after 3 shots, they are not going to hit as hard as they can - they‘ll go into cruise control and hit consistent shots to take the easy win. A match is not cooperative rallying and most opponents will take the lowest risk method to beat you so that they can save their energy for their next match. They might be bored too playing someone with glaring weaknesses that can easily be taken advantage of. They might be going home and saying to their wife that they had a boring, unchallenging match and beat a guy who made errors on every 3rd ball even when they hit easy loopers in the middle of the court.

If someone hits easy balls to me, I’ll take control of the point quickly. All moonballs are not the same - if they hit heavy topspin moonballs that jump over my shoulder or I cannot hit on the rise, then they are just better than me and it doesn’t matter what their form is.
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
Imagine in baseball if the hitter went back to the dugout and complained that the pitcher threw only breaking balls, change-ups and knuckleballs and on top of it, the pitcher‘s throwing technique does not look good. He is not going to get much sympathy from his coaches or team-mates if he just struck out. If the hitter is known as a fastball hitter, no one is going to pitch fastballs at him.

In fact, many minor leaguers do worse against breaking balls than fastballs and that’s a big part of why they don’t make it to the majors - ask Michael Jordan. It is the same in tennis with 3.0/3.5 players not being able to generate pace without making errors against slow shots or shots on the run and also not being able to putaway overheads. That’s a big part of why they are not advanced players.

In American football, job#1 is to stop the run on defense and if a team can’t do that, the opposing team is just going to run the football down their throats all day long - it is much lower risk than passing the ball. Even if a team has all kind of fancy plays or a great passing attack, they will kill you with simple running plays and outphysical you first because that’s the easiest low-risk way to victory. No coach is going to say after a loss that if the other team had not run the ball, his team would have beaten them as his team is great against the pass. This would be similar to tennis players saying that they would have easily beaten their opponent if only their opponent had given them the pace they are used to from their hitting partners.
 
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travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
Imagine in baseball if the hitter went back to the dugout and complained that the pitcher threw only breaking balls, change-ups and knuckleballs and on top of it, the pitcher‘s throwing technique does not look good. He is not going to get much sympathy from his coaches or team-mates if he just struck out. If the hitter is known as a fastball hitter, no one is going to pitch fastballs at him.

In fact, many minor leaguers do worse against breaking balls than fastballs and that’s a big part of why they don’t make it to the majors - ask Michael Jordan. It is the same in tennis with 3.0/3.5 players not being able to generate pace without making errors against slow shots or shots on the run and also not being able to putaway overheads. That’s a big part of why they are not advanced players.
It reminds me of a time when I met up to play with someone off of a local tennis meetup site. He liked to take big cuts at the ball, and could hit some nice shots. I double-bageled him by just poking the ball back until he missed (I was a 4.5, and this guy was more like a 3.5, as he didn’t yet have a good grasp of his shot tolerance). Afterward he declared in frustration: I think I could beat you if you would play with “normal” shots. Maybe so.
 

blablavla

Legend
You're just resorting to name-calling rather than looking at the details of the problem. I don't mind losing to somebody who has worked hard on their form and takes their hitting seriously. The people I'm talking about have no proper forehand or backhand....or volley for that matter....they simply hack at it like they're holding a baseball bat....they've gotten really good at this technique over the years. At 52 years old, it's not about winning.....it's about playing a fun game. Like I said earlier, nobody wants to play in a volleyball match where they just patter the ball over...they play a fun game of spiking the ball and having it be challenging...
if you have "proper" forehand, or backhand or volley for that matter, you'd be defeating all those pushers that handle tennis racket like a baseball bat.

tennis as a sport is not about "proper" forehand, or backhand or volley.
the rules say that you have to win points in order to win games in order win sets in order win matches.
I haven't seen anywhere in the rules written that you can only win a point by employing a proper forehand, or you'd get bonus for artistims or bonus for a proper forehand or penalty for handling the tennis racket like a baseball bat.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Imagine in baseball if the hitter went back to the dugout and complained that the pitcher threw only breaking balls, change-ups and knuckleballs
yes, I'm sure plenty of hitters hate playing knuckleballers and just deal. But they are paid athletes, so they have to deal. Doesn't mean they relish the opportunity.

I'm not sure why people want to castigate others for finding certain opponents less enjoyable to play against? Is there anyone on this board who hasn't had matches that were more fun than other matches?

I personally am not a fan of "vertical" tennis but it's my issue and if someone loves vertical gameplay, more power to you. But neck, vision and shoulder issues make that kind of tennis a chore for me so I'd rather avoid it than spend the hour after the match icing my neck and shoulder from an hour of overhead practice. Similarly there are days I'm not up for a fitness session against a pusher and days where I relish the workout. I almost never want to play a scatter shot ball basher. I never get to hit more than one ball a rally and put myself at risk of being pelted in the head.

If you are going to compete at tennis in tournaments and leagues, you need to face everything and deal. But if you are looking for social tennis to just compete for competition's sake, why would you seek out people who's playstyle irritates you. There are a lot of tennis players and the pushers and ball bashers are a minority group and can be totally avoided outside of leagues and tourneys. If someone wants to avoid them, I have no problem with that.

I have a Saturday morning men's doubles play and the rules are simple to be part of the crew.
1) No buttholes
2) No lob queens
 

Cawlin

Semi-Pro
If I could reliably hit 7, 8, 9, 10 balls in a row in play against quality shots, I absolutely would play with that level of patience and wait for my opponent to either hit one out, or hit one I knew I could crush for a winner. I'd probably be a 4.0 player too...

When I was a baseball pitcher, I would not give the hitters at the top of the lineup anything to hit. I'd throw them curve balls low or out of the strike zone, or filthy knucklers. I was happy to let them hit grounders to my fielders, or pop-ups. Maybe I'd mix in a fastball out of the strike zone to see if they'd bite if I was ahead in the count. If the guy was a real threat, I'd make him chase garbage or put him on if I could afford to. I had a pretty good chance to pick him off or double him off. There was no shame in that for me, or for any other pitcher who worked that way.

I was pitching college baseball and winning games while the guys who said my fastball wasn't fast enough were sitting in the stands watching...
 

chatt_town

Hall of Fame
You're just resorting to name-calling rather than looking at the details of the problem. I don't mind losing to somebody who has worked hard on their form and takes their hitting seriously. The people I'm talking about have no proper forehand or backhand....or volley for that matter....they simply hack at it like they're holding a baseball bat....they've gotten really good at this technique over the years. At 52 years old, it's not about winning.....it's about playing a fun game. Like I said earlier, nobody wants to play in a volleyball match where they just patter the ball over...they play a fun game of spiking the ball and having it be challenging...
Okay first things first. I never called anyone any names. You need to re-read. Lets discuss this proper forehand and backhand or serve or volley. What difference does it make if the ball is coming back? If it's not about winning, why are you complaining about how someone else is hitting the ball? It's probably not your son you are playing that's trying to get into college, it's probably another 52 year old that's out there having fun as you stated. You think he wants to be looked down upon by another 52 year old who isn't going anywhere in Tennis? I think the problem is many of the so called pushers are in shape and choose to rely more on their consistency or the fact that they are in better shape as opposed to trying to hit a 120 mph serve. Many tennis players only view backhands, forehands and serves as a weapon. Speed and stamina are rarely seen as a weapon and that's why many that complain about the so called pushers are losing to them. They have spent x dollars going to a coach to learn proper technique and then they get outlasted by someone that is chopping at the ball. This kind of reminds me of the people that complain about people lobbing in doubles because they are too sorry to drop back and hit an overhead. It makes no sense.
 

chatt_town

Hall of Fame
If I could reliably hit 7, 8, 9, 10 balls in a row in play against quality shots, I absolutely would play with that level of patience and wait for my opponent to either hit one out, or hit one I knew I could crush for a winner. I'd probably be a 4.0 player too...

When I was a baseball pitcher, I would not give the hitters at the top of the lineup anything to hit. I'd throw them curve balls low or out of the strike zone, or filthy knucklers. I was happy to let them hit grounders to my fielders, or pop-ups. Maybe I'd mix in a fastball out of the strike zone to see if they'd bite if I was ahead in the count. If the guy was a real threat, I'd make him chase garbage or put him on if I could afford to. I had a pretty good chance to pick him off or double him off. There was no shame in that for me, or for any other pitcher who worked that way.

I was pitching college baseball and winning games while the guys who said my fastball wasn't fast enough were sitting in the stands watching...
exxxxactly...and that's spoken from a true baseball player. Ive told that story from a different perspective of course as I wasn't a pitcher. My thing is if I could ask for the pitch I wanted to hit, I would've had a 15 or 20 year major league career. I'd ask for nothing but the 92 or 94 mph heater...Any that played baseball will tell you it's not the fastball that you couldn't hit, it was all the other pitches you named that threw you off and by the time they did throw you a fastball....hell its by you or you end up fouling off a ball you should've hit 450 feet. lol I've told a bunch of players that I've beaten that didn't have the stamina to be on the court...."I'm not going to hit the ball to you that you want to hit back". You come out there with knee braces & **** on...you are going to be running side to side up and back. My favorite story is a guy that thought he was pi$$ing me off by threatening not to play because I'd beaten him earlier in the season as I was well into my 40's and he was not even 30 and had played college Tennis(I won't mention the school). I was starting to have back problems at that time but he couldn't handle the different speeds or spins...he wanted to play college tennis again and it was not happening...and I told one of the other young guys..."hell...I've got back problems...wait til he plays one of the other guys that are still in their 30's that play the same way that i do. He had to stop playing....lol I beat him again in the playoffs. lol
 

chatt_town

Hall of Fame
yes, I'm sure plenty of hitters hate playing knuckleballers and just deal. But they are paid athletes, so they have to deal. Doesn't mean they relish the opportunity.

I'm not sure why people want to castigate others for finding certain opponents less enjoyable to play against? Is there anyone on this board who hasn't had matches that were more fun than other matches?

I personally am not a fan of "vertical" tennis but it's my issue and if someone loves vertical gameplay, more power to you. But neck, vision and shoulder issues make that kind of tennis a chore for me so I'd rather avoid it than spend the hour after the match icing my neck and shoulder from an hour of overhead practice. Similarly there are days I'm not up for a fitness session against a pusher and days where I relish the workout. I almost never want to play a scatter shot ball basher. I never get to hit more than one ball a rally and put myself at risk of being pelted in the head.

If you are going to compete at tennis in tournaments and leagues, you need to face everything and deal. But if you are looking for social tennis to just compete for competition's sake, why would you seek out people who's playstyle irritates you. There are a lot of tennis players and the pushers and ball bashers are a minority group and can be totally avoided outside of leagues and tourneys. If someone wants to avoid them, I have no problem with that.

I have a Saturday morning men's doubles play and the rules are simple to be part of the crew.
1) No buttholes
2) No lob queens
Lob queens? That's funny...how about just putting a couple of OH's away or in someone's chest?lol ....or just don't come to the net.lol I'm sure some hate people that come to the net. I know I'll lob you to no end if you come in...and guess what...I come in on the serve and if you put it in the air....whhhhhhammmmm...I hope you and partner have good dental...so yep...I'm going to lob you but I'm not having you lob me.lol Another good tactic is keep the ball in the service box against people that lob...forces the ball higher which a turtle with knee braces can camp under and hit an overhead. lol
 

mxmx

Hall of Fame
Usually one of them gets pressured into being the aggressor and consequently becomes the victim of the other's superior pushing.

A lot of pushers actually don't know how to hit hard. Like they physically don't have the technique or the mindset or the experience to do it properly. If you can bait them into trying to attack a lot of times they'll start giving you errors.
I hate playing counter puncers. It's a valid style just as much as agressive baseliner is.

I know someone who is not at my level experience wise or even technique (I even help him with some of his topspin technique he struggles with) etc, but due to his pusher style I'd lose to him more often than not in singles. Even if he uses the wrong physical technique. He would revert to strokes that work for him such as slice.

I have beaten him the last time we played and it's not easy tactically. In doubles I generally destroy him no matter his partner. Singles is a whole other ball game. He would however do worse against players I would do better against. So matchup is definitely a factor. Also he knows my weaknesses and I struggle to take advantage of his.

The last time we played, I really needed to be on form. If it wasn't for his weak serve and my big return, I'd have lost. Everything else he gets back comfortably although quite weak. But it's back in play to just make a mistake more than he does. I'm not great with the first volley and going to the net movement wise. Nor is my overhead what it used to be. So lots of the points had to be from the back.

From my side, I'm normally very agressive, but with this dude I have to be much more patient and slow it down a little and really wait for an advantage. Very demanding.

Another thing that makes him tough, is that even though he has lack of pace, he is great at approaching the net. He comes in on low slices (backhand or forehand). His volleys and overheads are decent. At least I had a good lob and passing shots. It helps that he's not the shortest either.

Generally I fear this player. If it weren't for my strong serves and returns, I'd kinda have nothing because even great groundstrokes means nothing to this guy. I just hope his serve doesn't improve too much against me in the future.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Lob queens? That's funny...how about just putting a couple of OH's away or in someone's chest?lol ....or just don't come to the net.lol I'm sure some hate people that come to the net. I know I'll lob you to no end if you come in...and guess what...I come in on the serve and if you put it in the air....whhhhhhammmmm...I hope you and partner have good dental...so yep...I'm going to lob you but I'm not having you lob me.lol Another good tactic is keep the ball in the service box against people that lob...forces the ball higher which a turtle with knee braces can camp under and hit an overhead. lol
A lob queen is someone that lobs every shot even if you are back deep. Defensive lobbing against 2 Up is a sound doubles strategy. Lobbing to baseline players is annoyingly unnecessary.
 

chatt_town

Hall of Fame
A lob queen is someone that lobs every shot even if you are back deep. Defensive lobbing against 2 Up is a sound doubles strategy. Lobbing to baseline players is annoyingly unnecessary.
Still to that I say don't hit it out of the service box...it will make it uncomfortable to lob...try it the next time you run into someone that does it ...and do it to the middle of the court short...not a drop shot persay...just make it where two bounces it won't even be out of the service box...they will lob it out or short. There are a very few that can keep short balls lobbed into the court but most are use to people just hitting it back deeper and deeper and the deeper you hit it the easier it is for them to keep lobbing.
 

socallefty

Hall of Fame
For those complaining that they have trouble having patience while playing pushers who moonball and hit ten easy shots in a row, what do you think will happen if you meet a player who can hit ten good shots in a row with pace/spin/depth? It will be a quick slaughter that will be laughable to watch for any spectators. So, are you saying that you will prefer a 6-0, 6-1 beat down that is over in an hour against a good player with shot-tolerance versus playing a 2-hour tough match with longer rallies against a pusher? The reality is that you are saying that you want to play only other bashers who can hit 2 or 3 hard shots in a row before making an error just like you. If you can’t take control of a long point against a soft-hitting pusher, don’t have any delusions that you can outlast a good player who is equally consistent and can hit hard and deep.

For those complaining about lobs, it means that you hit easy shots that can be lobbed easily which usually means that the level is 4.0 or below. The reason you see more lobs in lower-level tennis is because it is easy to lob those shots and in addition, it is effective because most players at those levels have bad overheads and no confidence to want to hit smashes repeatedly. In contrast, it is very hard to consistently lob deep the hard, heavy shots of advanced players effectively and the first player to throw up a lob usually loses control of the point pattern as most good players have good overheads and love hitting them. In advanced rec/college/pro tennis, you don’t see lobbing used as an offensive strategy and players lob only as a last resort on defense. Lob returns are used more in doubles sometimes at advanced levels, but again mostly against 2nd serves and as a change of pace rather than as a base strategy.

Advanced players don‘t have to make rules about what playing styles they will invite to play socially against - they will invite anyone who is competitive against them and that itself is restrictive as competitive 4.5+ players can be hard to find.

I guess what I am saying is that pushers and constant lobbers who can't hit good shots are pretty much extinct at higher levels of tennis - they are different from defensive counterpunchers who exist at all levels. So, advanced players have disdain for anyone who complains about pushers and lobbers because it usually means that the complainer plays at a low level.
 
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chatt_town

Hall of Fame
For those complaining that they have trouble having patience while playing pushers who moonball and hit ten easy shots in a row, what do you think will happen if you meet a player who can hit ten good shots in a row with pace/spin/depth? It will be a quick slaughter that will be laughable to watch for any spectators. So, are you saying that you will prefer a 6-0, 6-1 beat down that is over in an hour against a good player with shot-tolerance versus playing a 2-hour tough match with longer rallies against a pusher? The reality is that you are saying that you want to play only other bashers who can hit 2 or 3 hard shots in a row before making an error just like you. If you can’t take control of a long point against a soft-hitting pusher, don’t have any delusions that you can outlast a good player who is equally consistent and can hit hard and deep.

For those complaining about lobs, it means that you hit easy shots that can be lobbed easily which usually means that the level is 4.0 or below. The reason you see more lobs in lower-level tennis is because it is easy to lob those shots and in addition, it is effective because most players at those levels have bad overheads and no confidence to want to hit smashes repeatedly. In contrast, it is very hard to consistently lob deep the hard, heavy shots of advanced players effectively and the first player to throw up a lob usually loses control of the point pattern as most good players have good overheads and love hitting them. In advanced rec/college/pro tennis, you don’t see lobbing used as an offensive strategy and players lob only as a last resort on defense. Lob returns are used more in doubles sometimes at advanced levels, but again mostly against 2nd serves and as a change of pace rather than as a base strategy.

Advanced players don‘t have to make rules about what playing styles they will invite to play socially against - they will invite anyone who is competitive against them and that itself is restrictive as competitive 4.5+ players can be hard to find.

I guess what I am saying is that pushers and constant lobbers who can't hit good shots are pretty much extinct at higher levels of tennis - they are different from defensive counterpunches who exist at all levels. So, advanced players have disdain for anyone who complains about pushers and lobbers because it usually means that the complainer plays at a low level.
I agree with most of this...although I'm not going to give 4.5's that much credit now. I've seen many get beat by pushers and I consider myself a between type guy. I don't have the deepest ball all the time now but when I was hitting it well...I beat more than my share of 4.5's and was never rated a 4.5. I've also seen other so called 4.5's get beat by consistent 4.0's So I'd agree with what you are saying but I'd apply what you are saying only to the higher end of 4.5. Also, there are plenty of 4.0's in the atl area that will bury a lob into your chest area quick. :)
 

blablavla

Legend
I agree with most of this...although I'm not going to give 4.5's that much credit now. I've seen many get beat by pushers and I consider myself a between type guy. I don't have the deepest ball all the time now but when I was hitting it well...I beat more than my share of 4.5's and was never rated a 4.5. I've also seen other so called 4.5's get beat by consistent 4.0's So I'd agree with what you are saying but I'd apply what you are saying only to the higher end of 4.5. Also, there are plenty of 4.0's in the atl area that will bury a lob into your chest area quick. :)
let me put it in the following perspective.
what many call pushers, is a player that can run fast enough and long enough to retrieve many balls, but likely doesn't have "sound" / "proper" technique to consistently hit a heavy ball back.
hence, players with "sound" / "proper" feel that it is not OK to lose.
but on the other side, if you look at the good players, that comes as well with solid footwork.
in fact, the better the player's level is, the better the footwork, in general. Of course there are exceptions, but let's not focus on exceptions now.
beyond the solid footwork, these good players as well posses "sound" / "proper" technique, so they can produce heavy ball consistently.

this is where I can't understand the complaints about pushers.
if you can't defeat someone whose only weapon is running like a bunny rabbit, what makes you think that you will defeat someone who likely has a better footwork AND solid groundstrokes?
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Still to that I say don't hit it out of the service box...it will make it uncomfortable to lob...try it the next time you run into someone that does it ...and do it to the middle of the court short...not a drop shot persay...just make it where two bounces it won't even be out of the service box...they will lob it out or short. There are a very few that can keep short balls lobbed into the court but most are use to people just hitting it back deeper and deeper and the deeper you hit it the easier it is for them to keep lobbing.
I have no trouble defeating the lob queens and totally agree the short angles help. Our group just hates playing them socially, so they are excluded from our men's Saturday morning doubles. We are a bunch of mid-50's guys that don't find running back to retrieve lobs all day that much fun anymore. When I was 20, no problem.

I wonder if people who can regularly beat pushers complain about them...
Everyone can beat a pusher, everyone can lose to a pusher. It depends on their level. I have no problem beating a 3.0 pusher. I can't beat a 4.0 pusher. Not sure I'd complain about either but i would recognize them for what they are.

this is where I can't understand the complaints about pushers.
if you can't defeat someone whose only weapon is running like a bunny rabbit, what makes you think that you will defeat someone who likely has a better footwork AND solid groundstrokes?
Well you wouldn't play that guy generally because he'd be higher level than you. That's why pushers start diminishing at higher levels where everyone is fast and has good groundstrokes. But at 3.5-4.0, there's a lot of slow guys with great racket skills and lots of fast guys that can't hit a ball well at all. Fast guys with great strokes are 4.5-5.0. Slow guys with no strokes are 2.5-3.0 players.
 

blablavla

Legend
Well you wouldn't play that guy generally because he'd be higher level than you. That's why pushers start diminishing at higher levels where everyone is fast and has good groundstrokes. But at 3.5-4.0, there's a lot of slow guys with great racket skills and lots of fast guys that can't hit a ball well at all. Fast guys with great strokes are 4.5-5.0. Slow guys with no strokes are 2.5-3.0 players.
well, I do play with both types, including players that normally indeed shouldn't be playing with me.
and I had occasionally lost to "pushers".
but before complaining about their style, I always asked myself, hey, if you can't defeat today this guy, how do you plan on defeating the guy who instead of defensive high balls will be sending heavy balls at you? no chance, you wasted this training opportunity.

and this summer I had situations when a good shot, that normally would be a winner against the "middle of the pack" was not only retrieved by the good players, but also sent back with interest.
and that's the difference.
a good pusher would still get to the ball, send it back and hope for the best.
a good player will probably not only get to it, but as well play it. And the better your opponent is, the heavier it will come back.
So the way I look at this, is pushers give me chance to check in real match how many winners I can produce and what is the cost of these winners (UE)
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
but before complaining about their style, I always asked myself, hey, if you can't defeat today this guy, how do you plan on defeating the guy who instead of defensive high balls will be sending heavy balls at you? no chance, you wasted this training opportunity.
But the strategies for defeating those types of players is radically different. In fact, I might resort to "pushing" to defeat the heavy groundstroke player whereas my strategy against pushers (go to the BH and get into the net) would merely get me passed by the heavy groundstroke player.

So playing a pusher is not a training opportunity to learn to defeat the hard hitter, in my opinion. Playing pushers is a training opportunity to play better and better pushers. If anything they make you less competent to handle pace from a hard hitter.
 

Crazy Finn

Semi-Pro
...

this is where I can't understand the complaints about pushers.
if you can't defeat someone whose only weapon is running like a bunny rabbit, what makes you think that you will defeat someone who likely has a better footwork AND solid groundstrokes?
You can't. I suppose, because they're obviously better in the stroke and movement department, people feel less aggrieved.
 

chatt_town

Hall of Fame
let me put it in the following perspective.
what many call pushers, is a player that can run fast enough and long enough to retrieve many balls, but likely doesn't have "sound" / "proper" technique to consistently hit a heavy ball back.
hence, players with "sound" / "proper" feel that it is not OK to lose.
but on the other side, if you look at the good players, that comes as well with solid footwork.
in fact, the better the player's level is, the better the footwork, in general. Of course there are exceptions, but let's not focus on exceptions now.
beyond the solid footwork, these good players as well posses "sound" / "proper" technique, so they can produce heavy ball consistently.

this is where I can't understand the complaints about pushers.
if you can't defeat someone whose only weapon is running like a bunny rabbit, what makes you think that you will defeat someone who likely has a better footwork AND solid groundstrokes?
Point taken and I agree 100 percent.
 

blablavla

Legend
But the strategies for defeating those types of players is radically different. In fact, I might resort to "pushing" to defeat the heavy groundstroke player whereas my strategy against pushers (go to the BH and get into the net) would merely get me passed by the heavy groundstroke player.

So playing a pusher is not a training opportunity to learn to defeat the hard hitter, in my opinion. Playing pushers is a training opportunity to play better and better pushers. If anything they make you less competent to handle pace from a hard hitter.
then the whole discussion about pushers doesn't make sense.

I can't complain that I can't handle pushers AND at the same time voluntarily become a pusher myself when facing a strong opponent.
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
then the whole discussion about pushers doesn't make sense.

I can't complain that I can't handle pushers AND at the same time voluntarily become a pusher myself when facing a strong opponent.
ive never complained about being unable to handle a pusher. I may not enjoy them in a social play but I’ll always play them over a mindless ball basher. Rec tennis is about fun and many people find pushers less fun.

Hating to play them vs struggling against them are not the same things.
 

cknobman

Legend
I can retain a certain amount of respect for a "pusher" who is like a backboard but still has a variety of shots.

However, I cannot retain a shred of respect for a "lobber". One who simply hits a lob shot repetitively no matter what.
I hope those people break their legs and can never play again. :mad::p:laughing:
 

travlerajm

G.O.A.T.
I can retain a certain amount of respect for a "pusher" who is like a backboard but still has a variety of shots.

However, I cannot retain a shred of respect for a "lobber". One who simply hits a lob shot repetitively no matter what.
I hope those people break their legs and can never play again. :mad::p:laughing:
Time to practice your overhead smash?
 

Dartagnan64

G.O.A.T.
Time to practice your overhead smash?
That is the only solution. It does work well. Sadly once you show the lobber you can smash, the whole match becomes a pointless drubbing.

Few weeks ago I played mixed against a couple of lobbers. We barely won 5-7 6-4 10-8. It was a no contrast blue sky with bright sunshine and a breeze and overheads were a challenge. Then we played them a week later, indoors. Won 6-0 6-2 6-3. No problem hitting the overheads and they had no answer.

The problem with lobbers and pushers is rarely do they have plan B. They are going to make you do one thing and if you can do it, it's an easy victory. Pushers make you approach the net and finish points, lobbers make you hit overhead practice.
 
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