It amazes me how some people think that Nadal/Djoko/Murray are "point constructors"

SafinIsGOAT

SafinIsGOAT

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In another thread I made, there were Nadal/Djoko/Murray fans who were saying that modern tennis involves more point construction than in the past, including the recent past.

Here are some videos for you to watch:

Masters Cup Final 2005 Federer vs Nalbandian Highlights Pt1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XOBP3N1ejc

Roddick Vs Safin 2004 Masters Highlights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9qTIcn4PeE


That's point construction. Still primarily baseline, but players are actually trying to vary angles, flatten out shots, create openings, etc.

Can you not see a difference between that and this garbage? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JInQVyVaAfI

If Safin was alive today, he would take those short, spinny shots of Nadal's and blast them off the court.
 
I think it depends a lot on the surface. Except on grass modern tennis strategy can hardly be called direct point construction. Apart from the pure 'serve and volley' types it is not used much anymore. Of course when you place a great first serve you want to finish the point quickly but once the balls is in play for a few hits other things start to matter.

Modern tennis is more strategic, points are often made indirectly. Percentage play, finding weaknesses, wearing people out, these are now the prime weapons.

People do not realize how tiring a best of five can be and not just for the big muscles. By varying play, short balls, long balls, different spin, changing strategies and pace you can wear your opponent out. Things like hand-eye coordination, fine motor control and alertness go down the drain when the play is constantly varying or mentally a player can collapse when a weakness is constantly exploited.
 
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SafinIsGOAT said:
In another thread I made, there were Nadal/Djoko/Murray fans who were saying that modern tennis involves more point construction than in the past, including the recent past.

Here are some videos for you to watch:

Masters Cup Final 2005 Federer vs Nalbandian Highlights Pt1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XOBP3N1ejc

Roddick Vs Safin 2004 Masters Highlights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9qTIcn4PeE


That's point construction. Still primarily baseline, but players are actually trying to vary angles, flatten out shots, create openings, etc.

Can you not see a difference between that and this garbage? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JInQVyVaAfI

If Safin was alive today, he would take those short, spinny shots of Nadal's and blast them off the court.
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Yay, our weekly Safin is GOAT thread with hand picked examples to prove a point that no one will ever be sold on :lol:

And to the bolded....

michael-jackson-laugh-o.gif
 
SafinIsGOAT said:
In another thread I made, there were Nadal/Djoko/Murray fans who were saying that modern tennis involves more point construction than in the past, including the recent past.

Here are some videos for you to watch:

Masters Cup Final 2005 Federer vs Nalbandian Highlights Pt1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XOBP3N1ejc

Roddick Vs Safin 2004 Masters Highlights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9qTIcn4PeE


That's point construction. Still primarily baseline, but players are actually trying to vary angles, flatten out shots, create openings, etc.

Can you not see a difference between that and this garbage? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JInQVyVaAfI

If Safin was alive today, he would take those short, spinny shots of Nadal's and blast them off the court.
Click to expand...

God I miss those days. True fast court tennis. Not a true acefest/grindfest but an entertaining allcourt shotmaking contest. Hope tennis switches back to the good times but for that to happen, Nadal and Murray need to exit the scene. And I agree, Marat would've killed Nadal and Murray on those courts.
 
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If Safin were alive today? :lol:

I don't think blasting winners is point construction re. Safin vs Roddick.
 
Djokovic is a point constructor indeed. That is clear to anyone who watches his tennis matches.
 
Sorry, but Nadal & Murray are much better point constructors than Djoko.
Kindly do not club them together.

Have a nice day!
 
They are actually some of the best point constructors ever. Especially in this era, where the courts are much slower, and you can't outright win points. All three have great defense, patience, and can go on the attack to wrestle the initiative away. Not quite sure what the point is of this thread...tennis has changed a lot these past few years, and these three are the pinnacle of point construction right now imo.
 
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cronus said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0bH1iGEGVM

:)
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wow, I'm glad Nadal has speeded up just a wee bit. He was taking 35, 36, 32 and 43 seconds on those serves. One in the early 20's after a return-error. And 12-13 seconds between first and 2nd.

As for prime Safin - of course he would kill Rafa:-)
It's like Delpo and the Sod merging into a much better player, who can blast winners on his serve, forehand, backhand, is a better mover and is capable at the net. What's not to like?
 
That Fed Nalby match is LEGEND!

They play vacuum cleaner tennis now. Like vacuums brainlessly sucking up balls on the baseline.

SafinIsGOAT said:
In another thread I made, there were Nadal/Djoko/Murray fans who were saying that modern tennis involves more point construction than in the past, including the recent past.

Here are some videos for you to watch:

Masters Cup Final 2005 Federer vs Nalbandian Highlights Pt1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XOBP3N1ejc

Roddick Vs Safin 2004 Masters Highlights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9qTIcn4PeE


That's point construction. Still primarily baseline, but players are actually trying to vary angles, flatten out shots, create openings, etc.

Can you not see a difference between that and this garbage? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JInQVyVaAfI

If Safin was alive today, he would take those short, spinny shots of Nadal's and blast them off the court.
Click to expand...
 
Hitman said:
They are actually some of the best point constructors ever. Especially in this era, where the courts are much slower, and you can't outright win points. All three have great defense, patience, and can go on the attack to wrestle the initiative away. Not quite sure what the point is of this thread...tennis has changed a lot these past few years, and these three are the pinnacle of point construction right now imo.
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Couldn't have said it any better myself.
 
This is the real point construction folks. You ain't seen nothin before.
Watch the wily youngster battle the seasoned veteran.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SR112Uds-Hg

Even in fourth set both players take less than 10 seconds between points, even on 15shot rallies. And no grunting. No reaching for towels every 10 seconds.

What have we done to the game now?
 
I like grinding tennis on clay.. most fun to watch fognini and Monfils.. who are also shot makers but first defenders.. I think those are the best matches to watch.

Where I do agree is that they should have kept Grass Fast, clay Slow, and Hard in the middle. Now all the surfaces are the same, meaning the same 4 guys in Semis. No specialists. I miss days of Henman, Kraijcek, Sampras, Phillippousis and Ivanisevic in Wimby, and then Costa, Corretja, Moya, Coria, Gaudio on clay.
 
Chanwan said:
wow, I'm glad Nadal has speeded up just a wee bit. He was taking 35, 36, 32 and 43 seconds on those serves. One in the early 20's after a return-error. And 12-13 seconds between first and 2nd.

As for prime Safin - of course he would kill Rafa:-)
It's like Delpo and the Sod merging into a much better player, who can blast winners on his serve, forehand, backhand, is a better mover and is capable at the net. What's not to like?
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Both Delpo and Sod combined while peaking for one tournament.

Both Delpo and Sod combined in terms of being AWOL the rest of the time.
 
You're not really watching tennis as a decision making process. In faster surfaces, the possible decisions in every instant are either riskier or impossible. This makes the tree of all possible decisions quite smaller, which means point construction is affected. That doesn't mean point construction isn't possible, just that there are less choices in average at any given time.
 
booson said:
You're not really watching tennis as a decision making process. In faster surfaces, the possible decisions in every instant are either riskier or impossible. This makes the tree of all possible decisions quite smaller, which means point construction is affected. That doesn't mean point construction isn't possible, just that there are less choices in average at any given time.
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Good observation.

The question, regardless of surfaces, is whether pros maintain a large choice set going after a ball.
Point pattern plays perhaps keeps the choice set similar (and smaller).
 
OP, you should go watch a replay of Murray - Verdasco yesterday. Each guy was playing some great angles.

Chico said:
Djokovic is a point constructor indeed. That is clear to anyone who watches his tennis matches.
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Definitely.

Chanwan said:
As for prime Safin - of course he would kill Rafa:-)
It's like Delpo and the Sod merging into a much better player, who can blast winners on his serve, forehand, backhand, is a better mover and is capable at the net. What's not to like?
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This is off topic, but very true. You left out: Safin would have no fear of playing Nadal. Zero.
 
OTMPut said:
Good observation.

The question, regardless of surfaces, is whether pros maintain a large choice set going after a ball.
Point pattern plays perhaps keeps the choice set similar (and smaller).
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Good point. Perhaps to generalize a little more my observation, I should have said that the size of the set of all available (immediate and future) choices at any given time depends on time to reach the ball, speed, opponent's identity, location and direction, etc. And that having in mind a set of patterns (where a pattern is a set of sequential choices that have proven to be effective), reduces the complexity of the initial set of available choices and therefore speeds up the decision making process.

The size of the choice set, I'd say, depends on the player's abilities and experience. Players as Rafa or Fed, I think, have much smaller choice sets than Djokovic, because they have very specific killer shots (their forehands) for example.
 
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You held a pan instead of a racket. Congrats.

If a guy has a history of poorly disguised service motions on hardcourts, and moved slowly, he will not have time to construct a plan. That's federer.

Hope that helps.
 
SafinIsGOAT said:
In another thread I made, there were Nadal/Djoko/Murray fans who were saying that modern tennis involves more point construction than in the past, including the recent past.

Here are some videos for you to watch:

Masters Cup Final 2005 Federer vs Nalbandian Highlights Pt1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XOBP3N1ejc

Roddick Vs Safin 2004 Masters Highlights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9qTIcn4PeE


That's point construction. Still primarily baseline, but players are actually trying to vary angles, flatten out shots, create openings, etc.

Can you not see a difference between that and this garbage? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JInQVyVaAfI

If Safin was alive today, he would take those short, spinny shots of Nadal's and blast them off the court.
Click to expand...

Runtime Error! Youtube comparison found
 
If Safin were alive today, he'd be moonballed to death by your favorite moonballer the way he used to when they played each other.
Don't underestimate the moonball shot. Even Federer has no choice but to bow to it.
 
agreed said:
You held a pan instead of a racket. Congrats.

If a guy has a history of poorly disguised service motions on hardcourts, and moved slowly, he will not have time to construct a plan. That's federer.

Hope that helps.
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Yes Federer in 2013 was the PEAK of his hardcourt prowess! :shock:
 
Not sure if OP has ever seen Djokovic play in the last two years. He's the best point-constructor on tour for sure. His consistency and placement is unparalleled and he uses these skills to their full advantage.
 
Every tennis player is a point constructor. This is such BS that coaches tell players. "You have to construct the point. Now, let's go analyze a Federer video for 4 hours with color arrows and angles and technical sounding terms."
 
I see the point you're trying to make, although I'm not sure whether I agree or not. One thing you have to realize is that all of the players you mentioned had different strengths and weaknesses. When discussing "point construction" most people don't immediately think of players like Safin or Roddick. Most people consider them power players that just look for opportunities to crush the ball. Federer, Haas, Santoro, Agassi, and Coria are players I think of when I hear the phrase "point construction".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzROW5bkUEk

And even net rushers like Edberg, Sampras, Rafter, and Stepenek construct points, just in a different way.

I agree with you that Andy Murray isn't much of a point constructor, but that's not really his game. He is more similar to Lleyton Hewitt in that they are counter-punchers who wait for opportunities to present themselves. Murray in particular tries to disrupt the rhythm of other players so that he can take advantage of their poor positioning, lack of point construction, or unforced errors. He usually doesn't have to construct his own points!

I disagree with you about Djokovic and Nadal (in general). They are both point constructors, they are just "one-dimensional" point constructors. They know what patters work for them, and they try to dictate play using only those patterns. The points they construct may not seem as "artistic" as say Federer, but they work.
 
against Gulbis I though Federer had terrible point construction. His plan seemed to be: Hit repeatedly into a really good backhand until you make an error.


Stepenek's match against Nadal at IW had some amazing point construction, even though he lost.
 
BevelDevil said:
against Gulbis I though Federer had terrible point construction. His plan seemed to be: Hit repeatedly into a really good backhand until you make an error.


Stepenek's match against Nadal at IW had some amazing point construction, even though he lost.
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Federer never was a point constructor.
He was a great player no doubt, but he always played a brainless game (which worked for many years).
 
BevelDevil said:
against Gulbis I though Federer had terrible point construction. His plan seemed to be: Hit repeatedly into a really good backhand until you make an error.


Stepenek's match against Nadal at IW had some amazing point construction, even though he lost.
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Gulbis didn't let him construct. It was Gulbis who did the construction in the important moments (a kind of simple and short construction that worked).
 
SafinIsGOAT said:
In another thread I made, there were Nadal/Djoko/Murray fans who were saying that modern tennis involves more point construction than in the past, including the recent past.

Here are some videos for you to watch:

Masters Cup Final 2005 Federer vs Nalbandian Highlights Pt1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XOBP3N1ejc

Roddick Vs Safin 2004 Masters Highlights
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9qTIcn4PeE


That's point construction. Still primarily baseline, but players are actually trying to vary angles, flatten out shots, create openings, etc.

Can you not see a difference between that and this garbage? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JInQVyVaAfI

If Safin was alive today, he would take those short, spinny shots of Nadal's and blast them off the court.
Click to expand...

Ummmn Yeah...SAFIN IS ALIVE!!! LOL
 
Well, this thread has turned into a pp-ing contest.

OK, Djoko and Nadal are not playing mindless tennis. So to say that don't use point construction is not a fair analysis in my view.

But, there playing style is somewhat one dimensional and does not have a lot of variety. I think you can say this for most of today's tennis.

The best tennis for me is on grass now since it rewards variety, net play, slices and attacking tennis. A lot of Djoko's and Nadal's matches consist of too much defense.

I am sure this will start more "discussion" but Federer vs Murray in the 2012 Wimbledon final was far better to watch than Djoko vs Nadal in their almost 6 hour Aussie Open final.
 
TennisCJC said:
I am sure this will start more "discussion" but Federer vs Murray in the 2012 Wimbledon final was far better to watch than Djoko vs Nadal in their almost 6 hour Aussie Open final.
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I don't see the point to more discussion in this regard. I completely agree with you.

Federer vs Murray was eye candy and included gasps of disbelief at the shotmaking quality.

Djokovic vs Nadal was a brutal baseline slugfest that was a nail-biter (only) due to its length and how close the scoreline was.
 
SpinToWin said:
I don't see the point to more discussion in this regard. I completely agree with you.

Federer vs Murray was eye candy and included gasps of disbelief at the shotmaking quality.

Djokovic vs Nadal was a brutal baseline slugfest that was a nail-biter (only) due to its length and how close the scoreline was.
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That pretty much sums it up.
 
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