It will be weird if Murray is number 1 AFTER the WTF but loses the YE#1 to Djokovic

timnz

Legend
This could easily happen.

Going into the WTF Murray leads the race by 405 points.

If Murray wins all round robin matches and gets through to the final but loses to Djokovic - he gains 1000 points

If Djokovic wins 2 round robin matches and get through to the final against Murray and wins - he gains 1300 points.

Murray 405 + 1000 = 1405
Djokovic 1300

Murray ahead by 105 points - hence, he is still number 1 after the WTF.

However, on November the 28th his 275 points from last years Davis Cup falls off, hence

Murray 1405-275 = 1130
Djokovic 1300

Hence, Djokovic is year end number 1

Has there ever been a time where someone was number 1 AFTER the WTF but still lost the Year end number 1? The other unprecedented occurrence is someone wining the YE number by a mere 170 points (less than 1 round robin match at the WTF).
 

wangs78

Hall of Fame
That's a very interesting observation. YE #1 should be based on what a player accomplished over the entire year from Jan 1 to Dec 31, so certainly nothing unfair if the scenario you describe becomes reality.
 

ultradr

Legend
They should assign more points on slams.

They neutralized the points a bit too much, last 15 years or so?
If this was 90s, I think novak would end up number 1 since they had higher relative points on slam winner, and the best of 9 non-slam results.
as far as i know, now(last 10-15 years, with new ranking system) is the best of 13 non-slam results.

in my personal view, number 1 is still Djokovic, for last 1 year window.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Not possible. If he's #1 after the WTF he is YE#1 because it will mean he at least matched Novak's result. If he matches or does better than Novak at the WTF he's YE#1. Same scenario for Djokovic.

Essentially it's like this. The difference between Djokovic and Murray is 130 pts when the DC pts drop off is included, and the lowest difference in points between winning a match and losing it at this tournament is 200 pts.
 
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timnz

Legend
Not possible. If he's #1 after the WTF he is YE#1 because it will mean he at least matched Novak's result. If he matches or does better than Novak at the WTF he's YE#1. Same scenario for Djokovic.

Essentially it's like this. The difference between Djokovic and Murray is 130 pts when the DC pts drop off is included, and the lowest difference in points between winning a match and losing it at this tournament is 200 pts.
If you add the points up it is entirely possible.

Murray : Before WTF - Murray 405 points ahead
After WTF - Murray 3 round robin wins and being losing finalist - gets an additional 1000 points
405 + 1000 = 1405 points

Djokovic:
After WTF - Djokovic 2 round robin wins and wins event - gets an additional 1300 points

Murray after WTF 1405, Djokovic 1300 - Murray ahead on points hence still number 1

UNTIL NOV 28th

Murray loses 275 points, Djokovic loses 0 points

1405 - 275
= 1130
Djokovic 1300

Hence Djokovic number 1 for the whole year.
 

timnz

Legend
Not possible. If he's #1 after the WTF he is YE#1 because it will mean he at least matched Novak's result. If he matches or does better than Novak at the WTF he's YE#1. Same scenario for Djokovic.

Essentially it's like this. The difference between Djokovic and Murray is 130 pts when the DC pts drop off is included, and the lowest difference in points between winning a match and losing it at this tournament is 200 pts.
No its a rolling calendar year - the points year doesn't stop at the WTF it stops after Davis Cup points are in (or taken off) - because Davis Cup is the last points granting event.
 

tennisaddict

Bionic Poster
Not possible. If he's #1 after the WTF he is YE#1 because it will mean he at least matched Novak's result. If he matches or does better than Novak at the WTF he's YE#1. Same scenario for Djokovic.

Essentially it's like this. The difference between Djokovic and Murray is 130 pts when the DC pts drop off is included, and the lowest difference in points between winning a match and losing it at this tournament is 200 pts.
If the 275 DC points are dropping only on Nov 28, then Novak could go further than Murray at WTF and still end up #2 for next 2 weeks

But in that case they will have to award Novak the YEC trophy even though he is currently at that time no 2
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
No its a rolling calendar year - the points year doesn't stop at the WTF it stops after Davis Cup points are in (or taken off) - because Davis Cup is the last points granting event.
But I've included the DC pts drop off. That's my point. If Murray is #1 after the WTF he's YE#1 regardless of losing 275 pts because if he's number 1 he will have at least matched Djokovic's result.
 

TheMusicLover

G.O.A.T.
No its a rolling calendar year - the points year doesn't stop at the WTF it stops after Davis Cup points are in (or taken off) - because Davis Cup is the last points granting event.
I think @Steve0904 has already deducted those DC points for Murray in his calculation. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as of yet, I don't think so. ;)

EDIT: what I said. Steve was just a second ahead posting before me.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
If the 275 DC points are dropping only on Nov 28, then Novak could go further than Murray at WTF and still end up #2 for next 2 weeks

But in that case they will have to award Novak the YEC trophy even though he is currently at that time no 2
Yes, but he'll be the YE#1 after the points come off.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
If you add the points up it is entirely possible.

Murray : Before WTF - Murray 405 points ahead
After WTF - Murray 3 round robin wins and being losing finalist - gets an additional 1000 points
405 + 1000 = 1405 points

Djokovic:
After WTF - Djokovic 2 round robin wins and wins event - gets an additional 1300 points

Murray after WTF 1405, Djokovic 1300 - Murray ahead on points hence still number 1

UNTIL NOV 28th

Murray loses 275 points, Djokovic loses 0 points

1405 - 275
= 1130
Djokovic 1300

Hence Djokovic number 1 for the whole year.
Yes, now I understand what you are saying. This is correct, but I wouldn't say it's weird really. Murray got pts last year for winning the DC, and didn't defend them this year. Those are the breaks I guess.
 

Ogi44

Rookie
But I've included the DC pts drop off. That's my point. If Murray is #1 after the WTF he's YE#1 regardless of losing 275 pts because if he's number 1 he will have at least matched Djokovic's result.
Murray will stay No1 with losing final with 3-0 in RR even if Djokovic wins but with
2-1 RR. Its 1000 vs 1300 points. On 28th DC points will drop and Djokovic will become YE No1.
 

Steve0904

Talk Tennis Guru
Murray will stay No1 with losing final with 3-0 in RR even if Djokovic wins but with
2-1 RR. Its 1000 vs 1300 points. On 28th DC points will drop and Djokovic will become YE No1.
Yes. I understand now. My scenario is just my way of sorting it out in my own head. Keeping it as simple as possible. :)
 

vive le beau jeu !

Talk Tennis Guru
If you add the points up it is entirely possible.

Murray : Before WTF - Murray 405 points ahead
After WTF - Murray 3 round robin wins and being losing finalist - gets an additional 1000 points
405 + 1000 = 1405 points

Djokovic:
After WTF - Djokovic 2 round robin wins and wins event - gets an additional 1300 points

Murray after WTF 1405, Djokovic 1300 - Murray ahead on points hence still number 1

UNTIL NOV 28th

Murray loses 275 points, Djokovic loses 0 points

1405 - 275
= 1130
Djokovic 1300

Hence Djokovic number 1 for the whole year.

(in 2008) :p
and another weird thing is that in some circumstances, some players won't be able to defend their points (if their team is eliminated)
i can't imagine the #1 spot being decided at the end of the year, after the masters... while waiting for a guy to lose davis cup points from the previous year final... points that he couldn't even defend on the court ! :???:
seriously, they should have changed the "drop date" to avoid such an awkward situation... :confused:

(anyway, the weirdest thing in all this mess would be having the muzzette as a year-end #1)
 
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timnz

Legend
Not possible. If he's #1 after the WTF he is YE#1 because it will mean he at least matched Novak's result. If he matches or does better than Novak at the WTF he's YE#1. Same scenario for Djokovic.

Essentially it's like this. The difference between Djokovic and Murray is 130 pts when the DC pts drop off is included, and the lowest difference in points between winning a match and losing it at this tournament is 200 pts.
No, because 1130 is less than 1300. (I see your comments earlier that you agree :) )
 
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